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Not that it’s a massive deal but I’m hoping this article is wrong. Is it possible Apple has to hold off adding ‘Thunderbolt 4 support’ to the specs until after Intel launches their Tiger Lake notebooks? That way Apple isn’t stealing their thunder(bolt) ☺️?
 
Well duh. USB-4 supports the TB3 spec natively. They aren’t going to add intel thunderbolt controllers to Apple silicon, and will probably only gain TB4 support when it trickles down to the USB stack
No I don’t think this is quite correct sorry.

Thunderbolt is royalty-free now and despite this, I’m sure Apple being a co-founder could’ve convinced Intel to let them make their own controllers anyhow but whilst the USB 4/Thunderbolt 3 relationship is confusing, a USB 4 controller would be pretty much a Thunderbolt controller with slight differences.

Happy to say I might not be 100% correct there but pretty sure you’re thinking about it wrong.
 
Rushed? Not really. When Apple first moved from PowerPC to Intel, the form factors were identical, just the guts were changed. That we're seeing the same with the first models moving from Intel to ASi is not surprising to me.

Intel is just releasing TB4 with Tiger Lake so Apple staying with TB3 for the moment is not much of an issue, IMO. I imagine these uses an off-the-shelf TB3 controller tied into the M1 (which looks a fair bit like an A14X).

Interesting, so I’m guessing the actual Intel TB4 Chios aren’t available yet (delayed 🤪) plus they might have to talk licensing still (since Apple just ditched Intel for CPU)... plus it could be due to cost concerns.
I doubt that TB4 will be excluded from the mid/high tier AS though...

and for the target audience of these new laptops, probably ok with TB3...

Unless I have this totally wrong, not only is Thunderbolt now royalty-free but considering Apple’s status as a co-founder, I think Apple would be making their own TB4 chipset and integrating it into the SoC like they’ve done with the M1. I even think that Apple could ‘update’ their specs once Intel launches Tiger Lake notebooks as then Intel could say they’ve launched the first TB4 product (along with whatever manufacturer partner they choose to do it with because Apple is obviously no longer that top-tier partner now they’ve gone their own Apple Silicon route).
 
The Mac Mini to me feels very proof of concept due to the inability to upgrade the RAM beyond 16GB and the removal of 2 thunderbolt ports. This could be a powerful machine if it had expandable memory or a hard drive (like some of the earlier minis allowed) but now is limited to the web-browsing, movie watching crowd. The 16GB memory limitation feels harsh and this holds true for the laptops also. ARM is not going to solve big data memory issues. I wish these machines were accompanied by a nice price drop also as they don't have to pay Intel for the chips but the R&D cost is probably baked into the cost of these machines.
I’m betting a mini Pro will be released within 12 months 👍🏻
 
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I personally haven’t used a thunderbold device in my life so I am fine with usb-c
I’ve got a 2011 MacBook Air 11” and I can tell you that the fact it had Thunderbolt support has extended it’s useful life greatly as in 2016 I purchased an OWC Thunderbolt 2 dock and that finally gave me USB3! Lol

But you would be correct concerning all USB-C Macs because USB-C docks etc. offer most users enough speed and flexibility that they need and for quite a bit cheaper. It’s even the case that I reckon I won’t really use and specifically ‘Thunderbolt’ products with any new Mac that I purchase because of the above fact 👍🏻
 
Just one external monitor? Killed it for me :-(

As a developer, I'd really be in a market for one of those - I need a quiet machine with burst speeds, don't care about sustained load since compiling happens in short bursts every few minutes. But one monitor, seriously? These days a lot of people use at least two external displays for coding - e.g., one ultrawide for IDE, another 2k or 4k in portrait mode for documentation, logs etc., with the laptop itself set aside, since developers also often prefer aftermarket keyboards.

Geez. What a disappointment.
Pretty sure all the M1 Macs will support more than 1x external display, I think it’s just a case of how the specs are worded for maximum resolution externals (6K x 1) and even that may be one 6K display per Thunderbolt port?

Totally agree however if it truly can only have 1x external display because I plan on purchasing either. 4K or 5K monitor, and then also run 1 or 2 HD monitors in portrait mode flanking the main screen with a new MacBook Pro in front of the main monitor making 4x displays in total (3x external).
 
So we can openly admit that this first gen is basically garbage, yeah?
I mean the fact that even the top spec Pro model only has two USB-C TB ports and can only handle 16 GB of RAM tells you all you need to know about the IO capabilities of this chipset.
Like I figured when it was first announced, this thing is a toy. It’s has possibilities, but it absolutely is not the killer spec they were hoping for clearly.
If you absolutely must buy into this new architecture, get the Air. If you need a professional work computer, however, get the 2020 11th Gen Intel MBP.
Hmmm not sure the ARM64-based chip will need as much RAM as an x86-64 chip and the RAM is also being included on-die, so could be that much faster with decreased latency that it doesn’t require much more than 16GB DDR4 (at least for traditional 13” MacBook buyers).

No doubt the 16” MBP upgrade will probably only get done once there’s an ‘M2’ or maybe an ‘M1P’ for Pro that expands on M1’s performance and potential.

Also, you made an error in that there is no “2020 11th Gen Intel MBP” as that would be a Tiger Lake MBP (current 4x TB port model is 10th Gen Ice Lake) but it may well turn out that early 2021 brings a 4x port TB MBP based on 11th gen Tiger Lake and I’m guessing whether this comes out or not (along with a 16” model) will tell us about how Apple is tracking with an Apple Silicon M chip suitable for these and other higher performance Macs 😉
 
So we can openly admit that this first gen is basically garbage, yeah?
I mean the fact that even the top spec Pro model only has two USB-C TB ports and can only handle 16 GB of RAM tells you all you need to know about the IO capabilities of this chipset.
Like I figured when it was first announced, this thing is a toy. It’s has possibilities, but it absolutely is not the killer spec they were hoping for clearly.
If you absolutely must buy into this new architecture, get the Air. If you need a professional work computer, however, get the 2020 11th Gen Intel MBP.
This replaces the MBP that was previously on the 8th gen, not the one that's on the 10th gen.

There is no MBP on the 11th gen.
 
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Not that it’s a massive deal but I’m hoping this article is wrong. Is it possible Apple has to hold off adding ‘Thunderbolt 4 support’ to the specs until after Intel launches their Tiger Lake notebooks? That way Apple isn’t stealing their thunder(bolt) ☺️?
Apple can't call what the M1 has "Thunderbolt 4" because the "Thunderbolt 4" name requires a Thunderbolt port to be able to handle two 4K displays. The M1 Macs can only do one 4K display over Thunderbolt. The M1 Thunderbolt ports can do everything else that Thunderbolt 4 can (including USB4 features) but I'm not sure about the VT-d thing - which is an Intel virtualization feature - maybe M1 has an equivalent DMA protection feature?
 
Apple can't call what the M1 has "Thunderbolt 4" because the "Thunderbolt 4" name requires a Thunderbolt port to be able to handle two 4K displays. The M1 Macs can only do one 4K display over Thunderbolt. The M1 Thunderbolt ports can do everything else that Thunderbolt 4 can (including USB4 features) but I'm not sure about the VT-d thing - which is an Intel virtualization feature - maybe M1 has an equivalent DMA protection feature?
It’s also unclear whether the PCIe connection is 16Gbps or 32Gbps, which is another differentiator for TB3 vs TB4. I think it was 32Gbps with the Intel models, but does anyone know about the M1?
 
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It’s also unclear whether the PCIe connection is 16Gbps or 32Gbps, which is another differentiator for TB3 vs TB4. I think it was 32Gbps with the Intel models, but does anyone know about the M1?
Intel Ice Lake MacBook Pro has integrated Thunderbolt so in that case PCIe doesn't really need to be involved (the PCIe device for each of the four Thunderbolt ports report as PCIe 1.0 x4 even though they have much higher bandwidth than that) - therefore the bottleneck is the Thunderbolt connection for each port and not the PCIe connection. The four ports are not paired, at least in the sense of bandwidth limitation, but there is a ~5 GB/s max total for all four ports combined.

The M1 has integrated Thunderbolt so I expect it to be similar, except it only has two ports, so you won't run into a ~5 GB/s limit for all 4 ports combined.

In any case, the limit for a single port is ~22 Gbps for PCIe data over Thunderbolt.

Macs with discrete Thunderbolt have ~2800 MB/s (~23 Gbps) per controller (two ports per controller) even though the PCIe 3.0 x4 should allow for more (like 3500 MB/s). There were only a few Macs that had a controller with PCIe 3.0 x2 (16 Gbps) PCIe connection.

TB3 and TB4 allow up to PCIe 3.0 x4 to the controller (you could connect a Thunderbolt controller with PCIe 1.0 x1 but it wouldn't be good for much except displays since a Thunderbolt controller has separate inputs for DisplayPort). TB4 does not allow less than PCIe 3.0 x4.
 
The four ports are not paired, at least in the sense of bandwidth limitation, but there is a ~5 GB/s max total for all four ports combined.
Where'd ya get this "~5 GB/s max total" figure from?

In any case, the limit for a single port is ~22 Gbps for PCIe data over Thunderbolt.
It's weird that it has that limit eh. Do you know if TB4 rectified this and bumps it up to the full 32 Gbps?
Coz I know TB4 mandates that 32 Gbps has to be available to the controller, so you'd think that artificial restriction has been sorted, otherwise they would've said TB4 must have 22 Gbps at least.
 
Where'd ya get this "~5 GB/s max total" figure from?
Testing of RAID 0 using two Thunderbolt NVMe enclosures has been done with dual Titan Ridge discrete Thunderbolt controllers of Mac mini (2018) and MacBook Pro (16-inch, 2019) and integrated Ice Lake Thunderbolt controllers of MacBook Pro.

- One port of Ice Lake: 2485 MB/s (20 Gbps).
- Two ports of Ice Lake: 4668 MB/s (37 Gbps). Three ports: 4778 MB/s (38 Gbps).
- Two ports of dual Titan Ridge : 4774 MB/s (38 Gbps)
- Two ports of single Titan Ridge: 2948 MB/s (24 Gbps)

It's weird that it has that limit eh. Do you know if TB4 rectified this and bumps it up to the full 32 Gbps?
Coz I know TB4 mandates that 32 Gbps has to be available to the controller, so you'd think that artificial restriction has been sorted, otherwise they would've said TB4 must have 22 Gbps at least.
32 Gbps is for the connection (PCIe 3.0 x4) between the Thunderbolt controller and the computer. It is actually 8 GT/s/lane * 4 lanes * 128b/130T = 31.5 Gbps but that doesn't include PCIe overhead or Thunderbolt overhead which gets you the 22 Gbps that Intel stated in the original marketing material (in the discrete Alpine Ridge days). https://thunderbolttechnology.net/sites/default/files/Thunderbolt3_TechBrief_FINAL.pdf

If you search for NVMe benchmarks, you might come up with a number like 3500 MB/s which is 28 Gbps. Thunderbolt overhead will reduce that.

Thunderbolt 4 doesn't improve things by much. It is integrated in Tiger Lake CPUs like in Ice Lake CPUs. Integrated means it can be more efficient (it's inside the CPU so it doesn't use real PCIe and the distances are much shorter). One YouTube video showed 3000 MB/s (24 Gbps). It was using a different benchmark though so I don't think it can be directly compared.

The USB4 spec says about bandwidth for PCIe tunnelling (like in Thunderbolt):
"The amount of buffering at the PCIe Adapter is implementation specific as it balances the tradeoff between PCIe tunneling performance and PCIe link latency. It is recommended that implementations make the amount of buffers configurable."

It says the same thing for USB tunneling (new to Thunderbolt 4 and USB4), just replace PCIe in the above quote with USB3.

If the amount of buffers were configurable, it is not configurable by the user.
 
I love the direction of the M series, but I'm now relieved there wasn't a 16" MBP announced. Would hate to have that machine limited to Thunderbolt 3, 16GB of ram, and other old specs.
Single monitor support isn’t even half enough for machine with a pro designation.
 
I read it "Thunderbolt (4) / USB4 with support for TB3 ..."
This article confirms it : https://egpu.io/forums/desktop-comp...i-apple-silicon-m1-thunderbolt-4-usb4-pcie-4/

"I was most interested in identifying the Thunderbolt controller/s. It's a nice surprise to see two Intel JHL8040R controllers providing dedicated connection to two Thunderbolt 4 ports."
They might be using the correct controller, but if the GPU and respective lanes behind it can’t support 2x 4K displays or 1x 8K display, then it can’t be labeled a Thunderbolt 4 port.
 
I read it "Thunderbolt (4) / USB4 with support for TB3 ..."
This article confirms it : https://egpu.io/forums/desktop-comp...i-apple-silicon-m1-thunderbolt-4-usb4-pcie-4/

"I was most interested in identifying the Thunderbolt controller/s. It's a nice surprise to see two Intel JHL8040R controllers providing dedicated connection to two Thunderbolt 4 ports."
The two JHL8040R are just retimers. The controllers are in the M1 chip. A retimer just helps to get the signal from the M1 chip to the ports.
 
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The Mac mini models with M1 chips, priced at $699 and $899

Overpriced, underpowered garbage.
Oh wow, you can’t feel the same way a year later, can you? The Mac mini with M1 are powerhouses at a really low price for what they do. I got a MacBook M1 on sale - $300 off, and the thing is wild, especially for its price ($1100) You can see intel MBP from 2019 with 32gb RAM, top of the line GPUs, bought for $3500+ running Final Cut Pro *slower* than a MacBook Pro M1 with only 8GB of integrated memory! Underpowered? Overpriced? Garbage? None of those, that’s for sure.
 
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The Mac Mini to me feels very proof of concept due to the inability to upgrade the RAM beyond 16GB and the removal of 2 thunderbolt ports. This could be a powerful machine if it had expandable memory or a hard drive (like some of the earlier minis allowed) but now is limited to the web-browsing, movie watching crowd. The 16GB memory limitation feels harsh and this holds true for the laptops also. ARM is not going to solve big data memory issues. I wish these machines were accompanied by a nice price drop also as they don't have to pay Intel for the chips but the R&D cost is probably baked into the cost of these machines.
That’s because you’re seeing integrated memory as RAM. It isn’t. It’s not marketing BS. A MBP M1 with 8GB of integrated memory runs FCP better and faster than a MBP intel with 32GB RAM. my previous MBP was a retina bought in 2012, with 16GB. I wouldn’t dream of getting a MBP intel in 2021 with anything less than 32gb RAM. And yet I paid $1100 for an MBP M1 with 8GB integrated memory, and it runs everything anything I’ve needed. Da Vinci Reaolve, FCP, Adobe applications and games are the heaviest things I run, but They run effortlessly. I doubt very much you could run any of those on a MBP intel with only 8GB RAM. Even with 16GB RAM.
 
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A MBP M1 with 8GB of integrated memory runs FCP better and faster than a MBP intel with 32GB RAM.

Maybe.

There's lower latency, higher bandwidth, much faster single-threading, etc. You're comparing a 2012 machine with a 2020 machine, so there are a ton of factors that are different beyond the RAM being unified.

There will absolutely be tasks where an 8 GiB machine is forced to swap where a 32 GiB one isn't, for very obvious reasons.

 
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