Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
New Mac Pro Desktop ?
- Thread starter Washac
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
I doubt we will see much in the way of a new "cylinder" or such for high end users. The newer kabylake or coffelake i7-8700 (65W) might make an appearance. It supports 8 cores/16 threads and help with making eGPU options more realistic. AMD has talked about eGPU options on TB3 (no linky, my google-fu is weak today)
In all likelihood, it will be a mini-esque solution with TB3 port expansion. So faster graphics would be delivered through an additional "brick" like device.
External storage ala Newertech "boxes" below the main unit.
It might be a return to the "tall" mac-mini case. (65W is still a bit warm, but, far from impossible)
A "low power" single/dual AMD 580 solution with up to 6 displays supported, would be feasible.
My guess is, get ready for the return of the dreaded "power brick"... no more internal PSUs.
I don't have any insider info... this is all speculation.
In all likelihood, it will be a mini-esque solution with TB3 port expansion. So faster graphics would be delivered through an additional "brick" like device.
External storage ala Newertech "boxes" below the main unit.
It might be a return to the "tall" mac-mini case. (65W is still a bit warm, but, far from impossible)
A "low power" single/dual AMD 580 solution with up to 6 displays supported, would be feasible.
My guess is, get ready for the return of the dreaded "power brick"... no more internal PSUs.
I don't have any insider info... this is all speculation.
Actually the 2013 Mac Pro isn't difficult to repair or upgrade. If Apple made upgrade parts available it wouldn't be too difficult. Sadly it hasn't seen many upgrades since the day it was released (if you want to consider the faster SSD an upgrade).
I guess what I meant by upgrades is stuff like the video card,PCIe cards and more internal drives. There are limited upgrades available for it. Don't get me wrong, its shiny and very cool looking and I'm all about shiny and cool. If I had enough money I would have upgraded to one vice the 2010 MacPro I got. I just think that Apple should go back to some sort of hybrid design between the old MacPro and the 2013 MacPro.
I know what you meant. The design is really nice but a lot like the iMac platform you are pretty much stuck with what you get.
I don't disagree. CPU/RAM/storage....etc are done "easily enough" for those with a certain level of skill.
But, the proprietary nature of the GPU makes it horribly difficult to upgrade, I agree. No argument on that for me.
An eGPU design that allows for the use of a separate "cage" for PSU and cards (PCIe 3.0 16 lanes physically) would give plenty of room and make cooling/expansion less of a nightmare.
The only big "gotcha" I see is that TB3 is only 5GT/sec, vs true 16x lane PCIe 2.0 @8GT/sec.
Could that be enough to satisfy power users? Probably not.
But connecting storage over USB 3.1 Gen2 can get to 600MB/sec, which is not too shabby, but, not nearly TB3 (or even TB2) speeds.
NOTE: I have not had a chance to test TB2 with dual SSD in my OWC case... I think it might top out at around 680MB/sec from what I read elsewhere.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that will not be enough to satisfy most people who would be the target market for the MacPro 2013 replacement.
TB3 is still only lightly more than 1/2 the throughput of even what the D300 provides in the 2013. 8GT/sec in the 2013 Mac Pro vs 5GT/sec with TB3 (assuming no other devices on that chain).
Even if PCIe 3.0 is 2x the throughput (which its not... not completely) its still going to be slightly better than 1/2 under optimal conditions.
I guess the trade off would be if there is enough of an overall boost from using newer GPU at less bandwidth vs older GPU at higher bandwidth.
Those 2012 Mac Pros are not heading for the scrap heap if that is the case. (nor are the 2013, for that matter)
waits for Apple to announce the revolutionary new "ProLink" which is just a PCI extender cable in a round form factor, that uses a proprietary secure connector, and an associated non-TB eGPU. The connector comes in two speeds - PCI3 x8 and PCI3 X16, known as "ProLink" and "ProLink Pro" respectively, just to emphasise how "Pro" the Machine is...
I wonder how Apple will address the fact that Apple wants tighter "security" in the hardware (i.e. T2 chip) vs. the "Pro-users" who like to upgrade hardware.
Wouldn't surprise me that creating some form of Mac mini Pro with TB3 connectivity to external grfx and storage through Apple designed cases, thus a modular Mac Pro... will be the (expensive) way to go.
All parts of the modules could have their own T2 chip enforcing the tight security.
Maybe even have mandatory macOS signing...
Wouldn't surprise me that creating some form of Mac mini Pro with TB3 connectivity to external grfx and storage through Apple designed cases, thus a modular Mac Pro... will be the (expensive) way to go.
All parts of the modules could have their own T2 chip enforcing the tight security.
Maybe even have mandatory macOS signing...
For the desktop workstation market eGPU is a "solution" in search of a problem. I have yet to see a convincing argument for eGPU's in such a market. There's already a solution to high performance graphics cards: PCIe slots.
EDIT: Added "desktop" qualifier to "workstation" and changed "PCIe" to "PCIe slots" to satisfy the pedants.
Last edited:
I don't need the performance of a Mac Pro, but an upgradable machine means failed components can be quickly replaced. Vital when there is a deadline. I remember being weeks without my old iMac because Apple could not find the fault correctly, that wouldn't happen with a proper Mac Pro, but could with the current one.
I think if they go the way of "Modular" MacPro it will be the death of the MacPro. With the price tag on MacPro's being historically high, I don't see many people coughing up the money for the one. I would look to see something along the lines of the iMac Pro but in a smaller cylindrical type case. Let's face it the large iMac is a heat management nightmare. The current MacPro has the heat beat so to speak.
Dell's new Mobile Workstations all have TBv3 (an option for 3530 ).
https://www.dell.com/en-us/work/sho...tified-dell/sc/workstations/precision-laptops
HP's new Mobile Workstations all have TBv3
https://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstati...r12139_us/en/psg/ws_overview/products/laptops
In the 90's , desktops far outsold laptops. By 2010, laptops outsold desktops in the mainstream. in 2020+ "mobile" workstations will probably have a much larger share of the overall workstation market than they did in 2010. Thunderbolt isn't going to disappear. It is solidily on track to getting to critical mass. Once TB is a 'common' connector for a high enough percent of systems, it will expand out to other systems for peripheral compatibility reasons. (e..g, Workstations are gong to get USB Type-C sockets )
The vast majority of eGPUs are not simply GPUs. They are PCI-e slot expansion boxes that happen to have a GPU card in them. If view the GPU primarily as a GPGPU ( more computational horsepower) then there is a 'solution' ; more computational resources for your workstation. Even if have 2 ( maybe 3-4) inside for the insatiable crowd 1-3 more is a solution because there is never enough. [ People use PCI-e extender boxes now with workstations. When Thunderbolt gets to critical mass (relative to extenders) it should be a more affordable solution in that context. ]
Thunderbolt isn't a "solution" to reduce the number of PCI-e slots down to zero in a "box with slots" design, but it does mean can set max internal threshold that is smaller that the maximum possible ( don't have to expand the main logic board to as large as possible. )
For Xeon E or mainstream Core i workstation with an embedded GPU adding Thunderbolt isn't a big issue just like it isn't for the laptops. Packaging multiple dies into a "CPU" package only makes it easier to add an embedded GPU witout necessarily having to hugely cut down on the number of cores ( if in some non extreme x86 core count contest)
The Mac Pro 2013 uses PCI-e. So does the MBP 15". PCI-e isn't a physical form.
All Apple needs to do is just release the 5,1 with updated off-the-shelf components and write a few drivers. They could get it out in a handful of months, any time they set their mind to it. They could even paint it black. They fact that they won’t, even now that they realize the nMP was a failure, just confirms that they don’t understand what their customers want, and are far more interested in creating new solutions to things that nobody believes are a problem. They do this even though they know they are losing customers permanently, who are even abandoning iOS and various Apple pro software. It’s a conscious choice for them, at this point.
I knew things were bad when they decided thunderbolt had to carry a video signal. They painted themselves into a corner and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that one.
I knew things were bad when they decided thunderbolt had to carry a video signal. They painted themselves into a corner and they have nobody to blame but themselves for that one.
Almost entirely a non issue, if Apple simply provisions some additional internal storage options. Those can be upgraded at the users dissection. The T2 has other duties besides storage though. sound in/output , fans , a role in power management. Likewise the system management power controller. All of those have been soldered into every previous Mac Pro. There is really no material change there.
The T2 will control/validate the boot firmware no matter which storage device the system boots off of. Booting from other storage devices can be limited by settings but doesn't mean cannot boot from other devices if want to.
it is highly doubtful that Apple is going to get in the external expansion case business. In the 2011-2018 history of Thunderbolt Apple has only done one "expansion" Thunderbolt solution; the Thunderbolt Display Docking station. Their 'solution' for eGPU developer box is third party. Apple is selling BlackMagics ( which they probably had some design influence on. It is quiet and prominently sold in the Apple online store. )
Apple sold/sells the LG Ultrafine displays. Could count the 5K model as Apple's second TB expansion (as they had a heavy hand influencing it). Apple will probably do a replacement for the 5K with an Apple shell around it in 2019. That will essentially complete their minimal "modularity" requirements.
The Mac Mini Pro probably won't come. At least as a Xmac like iMac 'killer'. In the "desktop" pro space Apple has already showed their primary solution; iMac Pro. If Apple does a literal desktop Mac Pro solution with no minimal internal options it would be like the Mac Pro 2013. If they go back to 'deskside' it probably will not be a "Mac Mini" like in any significant way.
Thunderbolt expansion boxes are not primarily a Mac market going forward ( Thunderbolt v3 is common across all new laptops in the $1+ K zone ). Apple isn't going jump into a market where there are multiple mainstream PC market solution providers any more than they are going to jump back into the printer market. Likewise "Pro" pure display (non docking station) market. The number of quality competitors are high enough in these markets that Apple doesn't need to jump in and 'drive it'.
There is about zero need for that. The purpose of T2 validating the firmware and the OS kernel components is so that the security protections that they provide are validated. If the boot process is "trusted" then what you have booted into is "trusted". If the OS has crappy security then some kind of "security enclave" inside the other components isn't going to make things much better. However, until the OS can get all of its security mechanisms up and running it is in a vulnerable state. That's primarily what T2 protects in the boot process. ( T2 also stores critical key info. which makes no sense to store in more than one place. )
macOS has to be signed now. That isn't new.
That Apple will take away the option to boot into something other than a properly signed macOS. That probably isn't going to happen. Skipping signed OS won't be the default, but macOS ( and Windows ) will probably remain primary options. It may get buried even deeper in the menu system and/or command line options, but Apple probably isn't going to remove it completely any time in the immediate future. ( all the current Macs aren't that locked down and they'd have to get to point have aged all of those out of support without that option being a pain. ) .
[doublepost=1535987346][/doublepost]
Macvidcard couldn't upgrade the video card. That is fundamentally different from whether Apple could. Apple recently updated the Mac 5,1 "ROMs" (firmware). Apple updating Apple firmware isn't in the range of "could not".
What Apple did was cut off 3rd parties. They made it harder to hijack their work and move it to other cards. Not like there was a long line of 3rd parties to do Mac video cards anyway. A substantive bulk of the 2009-2012 market was comprised of 4th parties grafting off of work of the 3rd party (and Apple ) work and selling as their own solution. They were not making (or contracting for their construction) video cards either.
Pragmatically the long term issue is that Apple put very little thought into upgrading the cards over a longer lifecycle. The physical and thermal core integration constraints were at least as big of the problem. Not only were there no upgrades for older systems, there were not newer systems either ( although they could have bumped with some Polaris options late in the process , but that was probably after they decided on a iMac Pro follow on. )
thunderbolt and PCI-e don't work that way. You'd also need two TB3 busses to be involved. Two TBv3 ports that share the same bus ( x4 PCI-e v3 backhaul inside the host system) aren't particularly going to buy you any more bandwidth.
Someone could do a single box that had 2-4 slots in it. Half devoted to one TB ( 1-2 ) and half devoted to another TB bus ( 1-2 ). However, taking two independent x4 bus and trying to merge them back into an x8 isn't going to work so well. There won't be a way to synchronize the traffic on those two busses so defacto you don't get a coherent, single address x8 out of two x4's (each with their own address).
Two independent busses would help two cards get better bandwidth (each individually), but that is probably a relatively small niche market. It may grow over time but for now, don't hold your breadth. Two 500-600W boxes will work for more than a few folks as well as some 1200W monster box. ( would have to be high enough volume to push the monster box off the linear price increase line. With ver low volume, that probably won't happen. )
If they came out with a Black cheese grater case for the MacPro I would spend the extra money just for the case. I think a black cheese grater type case would be super awesome.
I agree I think apple should do a small redesign on the 5,1 case and upgrade the processor tray to accommodate something like the i7 in a dual config and add TB3 and USB 3.x. It would absolutely kill the nMP. Heck for the savings they would realize in utilizing stuff they currently have they could throw in a RAID controller or a huge SSD and while they are at it have it boot natively to (hope this is right, I'm kinda tired and been up a while, so please forgive me if I get the acronym wrong) NVM drives.
I agree I think apple should do a small redesign on the 5,1 case and upgrade the processor tray to accommodate something like the i7 in a dual config and add TB3 and USB 3.x. It would absolutely kill the nMP. Heck for the savings they would realize in utilizing stuff they currently have they could throw in a RAID controller or a huge SSD and while they are at it have it boot natively to (hope this is right, I'm kinda tired and been up a while, so please forgive me if I get the acronym wrong) NVM drives.
I have no objection to Thunderbolt nor do I have any objection to using it for adding external GPUs. My statement is about utilizing it for desktop workstations when a solution already exists.
I had thought my comments would be taken in the context of the Mac Pro and therefore qualifiers such as "desktop" and "slots" would be inferred. Unfortunately there always has to be one pedant who builds a response without concern for the context of the post they're responding to. I've edited the original post to address these oversights on my part.
I would honestly be happy if they just updated the 2013. Come out with a different color case or something. Different processor options, like ryzen or i9 etc. This would probably need a slightly bigger power supply. And of course TB3 ports so we could run some egpus. I mean I guess they should have done this years ago. It wouldn't have cost them millions for a full redesign and if the specs and expandability was there people would shut up about it being such a catastrophic failure.