MP 7,1 New Mac Pro or an iMac every 6 years?

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by jccmaxon, Jul 16, 2019.

  1. jccmaxon macrumors newbie

    Dec 13, 2013
    I am a Spanish Youtuber and I have always used an Imac Late 2013 for everything. I'm thinking of buying a new one and I have doubts.

    I usually edit video in 4k, do streaming. I mainly use Photoshop and FCPX. Playing I usually play on video game consoles.

    My question is: Do I buy an Imac i9 2019? Although the GPU is not upgradeable. I feel like I can not update it since I bought it. Do you think that the Mac Pro is a better option in 12 years than two Imacs for the use that I am going to give you as Youtuber?

    I'm very Mac and I'm already used to the operating system.

    My idea is to buy a Mac Pro of 8 cores (maybe 12 cores) basic to edit in 4k. Then I will expand it in GPU, external disks, etc. Will it be better to buy two Imac for 12 years?

    I do not know if you understand my question. I want a Mac that lasts me the most and the new Mac Pro seems the best solution, but for its price and my use the same agrees two Imacs.

    Thank you all. I read to you.
  2. goMac macrumors 604

    Apr 15, 2004
    A Mac Pro will probably last 6-7 years. You can push it longer, but you'll lose support for the latest OS and stuff like that.
  3. jccmaxon thread starter macrumors newbie

    Dec 13, 2013
    then it is better to imac a range top and change it every 6 years. Can you edit 4k video or maybe 8k?
  4. chfilm macrumors 68000


    Nov 15, 2012
    Maybe an iMac Pro rather than a regular imac? Mac Pro seems a bit overkill for a youtuber's needs?
  5. theluggage macrumors 68040

    Jul 29, 2011
    I would not try and guess what your computer needs will be more than 3-4 years ahead.

    Yes, the Mac Pro, with its PCIe slots is probably going to be upgradeable to the latest GPU in 2020 or 2021 but after a few years the latest and greatest cards are likely to need PCIe v4 or v5 for top performance (PCIe already goes up to v6 although PCIe is the most common - today - but its not good news that the brand new Mac Pro is only v3). Similar story for the CPU - in 2-3 years time you'll probably have the chance to upgrade to a better processor from the Xeon 3xxx range - but after that, new Xeons are unlikely to be compatible.

    So, in 2031, your 2019 iMac will be a 12-year old non-upgradeable computer, your Mac Pro will be a 12-year-old computer upgradeable to an 8-year-old spec. ...except - in your model - you'd have traded up your iMac a couple of times by then and would be using a nearly new one.

    In any case, I'd wait for the Mac Pro to actually come out so we know (a) what the various upgrades are going to cost (the 'base' model is barely more powerful than the iMac Pro, so a lot rides on how much it costs with 512GB+ SSD and a Vega GPU) and (b) what the issues are with using 3rd-party GPUs etc. (I wouldn't bank on MPX-format GPUs still being a thing in 5 years time).

    Meanwhile, the 2031 Youtube workflow could be to grab a wobbly 1080p video on your Huawei Smart Specs and upload it to the cloud where it will be converted into a full 3D model with AI-generated fine detail and then automatically rendered as a 32k movie in the cinematographic style of Ridley Scott (€7.50/min)/Quentin Tarantino (€8.45/min)/Martin Scorsese (€free)/Miley Cyrus (€9.99/sec) - (look and blink to select) - while you get on with the day job of scavenging for scrap on the central European landfill and catching mutant rats to sell to the fungus farms...
  6. jccmaxon thread starter macrumors newbie

    Dec 13, 2013
    I know that in 6 years the new Mac Pro will be outdated. But improving it to the maximum for little money, I can give it a second life. Currently the Mac Pro 2013 is very valid today. My iMac late 2013 top of the range is about half as powerful as the top end of the Mac Pro.

    I had this dilemma in 2013 and it makes me angry not to be able to improve this 780m GPU for years. Also, just having thunderbolt 1.

    It is true that the new Mac Pro will not be eternal and that new technologies will be coming out that will outgrow it. For example, Pcie 4.0, 5.0, etc. However, the same for 6 years the 28 cores Xeon is worth much less and there will be better GPU that can use.

    This new Mac Pro to the maximum insurance that will be able to compete vs the new iMac 2025. (More or less). And I've enjoyed a great Mac for many years, updating it to pleasure.

    I have doubts because the price difference is big. The Mac Pro 2019 will be worth 6600 euros and I will also have to buy a monitor. The ideal would be the 12 cores, but it will be worth around 1000 euros maybe more. The iMac top range costs me about 4000 euros and I would have a screen. Two iMac in 12 years could be approximately 8000 euros. In the Mac Pro I would spend more with the updates that I would do, but it is clear that I would enjoy 5 or 6 years of a much more powerful and upgradeable Mac. After the first 6 years (Imac 2025) maybe the new Imac is above the Mac Pro 2019 top of the range. (Maybe not)

    I'll wait for the new Mac Pro to come out although if I buy it it will be very basic in principle (at most 12 cores and suffering), but then I will improve the third-party GPU if it is viable and more external drives.

    Thank you all for the comments, but it is a great investment and I would like to take the most accurate one. Thanks again.
  7. ruslan120 macrumors 6502


    Jul 12, 2009
    Thank you. :']
  8. Moonjumper macrumors 68000


    Jun 20, 2009
    Lincoln, UK
    You will be able to sell your iMacs at a good price. That means you can upgrade for a smaller cost. That way iMac plus replace with another iMac is much less cost than one Mac Pro.
  9. velocityg4 macrumors 601


    Dec 19, 2004
    I wouldn't place a wholesale bet on the Mac Pro 2019 being better than a 2025 iMac.

    CPU: As a core race is going on right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the 2025 iMac will have a 32 core or 64 core CPU option. AMD just release a 12 core desktop CPU and the 16 core model is coming out soon. Intel will have to respond with a 12/16 core consumer desktop option. Just as they did two years ago with 8-cores after Ryzen came out. ARM processors are also getting loaded up with cores.

    RAM: iMac 2025 will likely use DDR5 RAM.

    Thunderbolt: By then it will be on Thunderbolt 4/5. Most likely the spec will be fully integrated within USB 3.7 Gen 4x3 Rev A6:rolleyes:. Which would not be an upgrade option for the Mac Pro. Even with a PCIe card.

    SSD: You won't be able to take advantage of the full speed of SSD which make use of PCIe 5.0/6.0.

    ARM: By 2025 Apple may have fully switched their computer line to ARM. In which case the Mac Pro will stop getting OS updates and major Mac App developers will stop developing for Intel Macs. It didn't take long for Apple to drop PowerPC support in OS X once they switched to Intel. Many major app developers didn't wait much longer. By the eight or nine year mark. You could be struggling to use the Mac Pro on the web with an outdated web browser or some tiny distribution based off mozilla/chromium.

    Future Tech: AI accelerators are in their infancy now. Intel just announced an Ice Lake based M.2 AI accelerator. These may be far more common by 2025 with a wide range of software using them. PCIe 3.0 may not be a viable option for these accelerators while they may be an option or standard on the iMac. Even for youtubers. These may be big by then. Think about Deepfake and other AI image manipulation have grown in just a few years. Image an video manipulation will likely be much easier and more seamless by 2025. Possibly assisted much better by AI coprocessors than GPU.

    Who knows. By 2025, if the Mac Pro does well in the market, Apple may have a prosumer friendly desktop option again.
  10. orph macrumors 68000


    Dec 12, 2005
    If you can wait for the next revision of the imac looks like 2/3 of a year wait but it may be worth it.
    NAVI GPU's just came out and intel next cpu release date will be around october so from that we can make a good guess of what may be in the next imac update [​IMG];)

    also gives you time to look at the reviews of the new mac pro and see how it compares.

    one thing to keep in mind is part failures and cost of fixes.

    to me it's nice to dream but until the new mac pro is out it's all in the air
  11. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Mar 10, 2009
    The notion that PCI-e v3 is some large boat anchor is a bit over the top. Apple's Afterburner card is x16 PCI-e v3 and yet does

    Afterburner is a hardware accelerator card built with an FPGA, or programmable ASIC. With over a million logic cells, it can process up to 6.3 billion pixels per second and is capable of handling up to three streams of 8K ProRes RAW or 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW. This means you can free up your cores to enable even more creative effects and processing.

    Up to 3 streams of 8K ProRes RAW video at 30 fps8

    Up to 12 streams of 4K ProRes RAW video at 30 fps

    Up to 16 streams of 4K ProRes 422 video at 30 fps

    A team the size of the fingers on one hand , youtube show with more than 2-3 8K cameras filming contexts ? Really?

    If go to 60 fps at 4k that is about 6 streams of 4k. How many 6 camera shot youtube videos are there? Content is extremely likely going to matter more than number of cameras at that point.

    PCI-e is not already up to v6. v6 is boing worked on, it isn't done. Almost nothing in 4K space makes any significant demand for it at all. Even 8k is dubious source of demand .

    There are some longer term upsides to going to the new Mac Pro but the notion it is 'hobbled' in some huge way in the small video team/budget context doesn't really match up.

    How is it upgradable to the 2,023 spec? The core infrastructure of that 2019 Mac Pro will be 2019 era tech. If put a PCI-e v5 card in all going to get out of that card is a PCI-e v3 performance ... maybe. Newer cards isn't going to make the core fixed infrastructure newer.

    Can muck around at the edges ( maybe a USB4 I/O card ) but jumping 8 years into the future? If talking bandwidth requirements only enabled by components 8 years from now the Mac Pro will be just about as behind.
  12. Manzanito macrumors 6502


    Apr 9, 2010
    As others have said, I’d wait to see the price of the mac pro configs then decide. We don’t even know yet what the price of the base system will be in Europe.
  13. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Mar 10, 2009
    If you are going to follow inside the normal 10.x to 10.(x-3) range of supported macOS window, then paying substantially more money for a Mac doesn't buy more support time.

    Apple's hardware support windows is "end of sales + 5-7 years ( Vintage and Obsolete criteria ) The Mac Pro is far more likely than the iMac to go into a sleep mode where there is no product updates. Pragmatically that extends the support window, but that is mainly because Apple is in a "do nothing" mode, not because the system costs more. Once the hardware reaches Apple's designation of Obsolete the macOS updates are about 100% likely to stop. macOS updates could stop before that too..

    Apple may even walk away from the Mac Pro in 8 years. That would be far more likely than them walking away from the iMac. As mentioned in another post I wouldn't "bet the farm" on either Apple's direction or your business model on way more hardware than you need because might need it based on unknown factors.

    If Apple got onto a two year cycle for Mac Pro then 9 years out is about as far as reasonably should be forecasting.

    The Mac Pro stuff into a "time bubble" with a fixed set of macOS + applications decoupled into Internet threats could work for 12 years but will have detached from Apple's path along the way.

    "I'm paying way past what my budget allows, but paying too much a highly effective 'future proofing' so it is 'saving money' " ... that is actually commonly held flawed concept.

    If don't have a intense negative reaction to the iMac form factor then an iMac Pro for 5-6 years and then buy whatever makes the most sense in that new context 6 years from now. It may be better to go "down" to iMac at that point. If the Mac Pro isn't 'dead' it may be better to go up. ( Or buy a used Mac Pro. )

    But 1-2 4K camera recordings and no very high end effects top end iMac 2019 or iMac Pro could do.

    I don't think that is correct track to focus on. Once issue is need to pile up all of the other costs for the Mac Pro. ( e.g., monitor (if don't have one ) and expected upgrade costs over that period ( need 8k monitor in 4-5 years.) ). Second, If this is "last most" to create a window to spread payments for the system onto a larger span so that fit under the short term revenue stream , that is questionable. Taking an iMac price point and multiply by two and saying is the Mac Pro is over/under that amount is not the most useful perspective to view the issue.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 17, 2019 ---
    Don't know costs of things like Afterburner and Vega II Solo/Duo either in the USA. There is a large chunk of pricing unknowns at this point. Also with what is going to be on list of supported card upgrades. That too is a somewhat unconfirmed list at this point.

    Currency fluctuations those probably would impact the iMac as much as the Mac Pro though.
  14. theluggage macrumors 68040

    Jul 29, 2011
    ...if you're a commercial user buying a Mac Pro on a 3-year lease, no. However, thread starter wast talking about making a Mac Pro last 12 years. On that timesacle, everything about it is going to be a boat anchor.

    In a few years time, the raw data for a single iPhone-shot video could easily be 6 streams of 4k@60Hz - shot at different focal lengths and moshed together by 'AI' at edit time so you can shoot first and choose your focal length and depth of field later... just like most high-end smartphones are already doing for still photos - and we're already on 3-4 'primary' cameras per phone.

    Its a guesstimate - as you say, PCIe V3 still has a few years left in it (but probably not 5+), so 2023 GPUs are unlikely to drop support. The Xeon has a longer product cycle than core i, and the Mac Pro is an early bird with the new 3000-series socket, so maybe there will be another 'generation' of compatible CPUs released in 2-3 year's time that you could use to upgrade a MP (once its out of warranty)... 2023 could be a good time to buy a used (late) 2019 Mac Pro for 'hobby' use once the commercial support plans start running out.

    OK, confused now, because that was pretty much my original point, while you were arguing that PCI v3 wasn't such a limitation. I'm just guessing that PCIe v3 will be 'current' for another 2-4 years but archaic on a 6-12 year timescale. It really depends upon the arrival of products that can reallt take advantage of it ...e.g. new GPUs that can fit 2 or 4 to a card and really use PCI v4/5 bandwidth, USB 5 (or whatever it gets called, since it sounds like USB 4 will, at heart, just be a generic implementation of TB3) etc.
  15. goMac macrumors 604

    Apr 15, 2004
    A faster computer doesn't last longer.

    I worked for a place that bought everybody a Power Mac G5, down to the secretaries, because they wanted those machines to last 10 years.

    The Intel upgrade hit them a year later, and they had egg all over their faces.

    A faster computer is faster but that doesn't mean it has a longer life.
  16. AidenShaw macrumors P6


    Feb 8, 2003
    The Peninsula
    Doesn't the product have to actually ship before you can call it an "early bird"? ;)

    You can't call vapourware "early bird"....
  17. leon771 macrumors regular

    Sep 17, 2011
    Have you thought about getting a MacBook Pro and thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosure?
  18. StrawberryX, Jul 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2019

    StrawberryX macrumors member

    Jun 14, 2013
    A future Imac could be extremely overpriced crap, get mediocre graphics, It's Apple.
    Youtube could be transformed, or not that important anymore in 8, or 10, 12 years.
    MacOs more like todays iOS, who knows.
    No decent answer to this question, Mac Pro's need to be in the wild first,
    cost of upgrades, will other brands also build expansions.
    Also get tortured, problems and repairs and see how the market responds to it.
    Good market response, is probably more upgrade options ...

    But It will cost, from 7000ish euro's, 15000 with some expansions,
    getting affordable when nearly vintage ...

    The power of Mac Pro, is it is probably more expandable, upgradable ...
    The 5.1 if you upgraded to the max ... not the worst Apple computer.
    Even the trashcan, you can put a 3,3 ghz 8 core in It, upgrade graphic cards,
    go eGPU, 64GB ram fast, or 128GB slower, put a 2 or 4 terra SSD inside.

    Imacs usually get more refreshes, Mac Pro's for the most part you can refresh them yourself.
    When not supported anymore by Apple, just disconnect from the web ...

    But the upcoming Mac Pro is a different class than previous generations.
    That's all we know ...

    I will probably go Mac mini for MacOS, and Windows for raw power ...
  19. nigelbb macrumors 65816

    Dec 22, 2012
    What many people do is buy a Mac with AppleCare so that it's under warranty for three years then sell it when there is still a month of warranty left & the price is still high then buy a new Mac with AppleCare etc etc Companies usually do the same with leasing & swapping out equipment every three years.
  20. theluggage macrumors 68040

    Jul 29, 2011
    True... there may well be more Xeon 3xxx machines with loadsa PCIe slots (more PCIe lanes is a 3000 series feature) by the time it actually ships.
  21. theluggage macrumors 68040

    Jul 29, 2011
    Don't think anybody here is claiming that.

    First, I think we're all agreed that trying to predict 10+ years ahead is fun, but futile.

    Second, the main point is non-upgradeable (apart from RAM) iMac vs. highly upgradeable Mac Pro that can be stuffed with new GPUs, accelerator cards etc. Also, it uses Xeon processors and workstation-class GPUs which tend to have slower "product cycles" than the "consumer" ranges, because they're not so much about speed as sustained perfromance and stability. We haven't seen benchmarks for the entry-level 8-core Mac Pro yet, but its quite likely that the top-end iMac (non-pro) will match, if not beat it in a sprint.

    Anyway, CPU speed isn't everything - what made my old 2011 17" MBP last 6 years was that, although CPU speed improved somewhat over that period, the major step forward was the switch to SSDs, and it was dead easy to fit a SSD to a 2011 MBP. Oh, and USB 3 - but it had an ExpressCard slot that could take a USB 3 adapter.

    Had they simply talked about 5 years rather than 10 years, that wouldn't have been such a bad decision: 1-2 years before the equivalent Intel Mac came out, another year or two before all applications were x86 native and actually delivered on those theoretical speed gains... 2009/2010 before new versions of MacOS and major applications started dropping PPC and another couple of years before the PPC versions became unsupported.

    ...a G5 tower (esp. if it was dual processor) did remain viable for longer than, say, a single-core G4 Mini or Powerbook, which would have been landfill as soon as the dual-core Minis came out.
  22. bpeeps macrumors 68030


    May 6, 2011
    iMacs already last that long and longer. A Mac Pro should definitely last you longer with the ability to repair and upgrade.
  23. Trusteft macrumors 6502a


    Nov 5, 2014
    Where in the EU can you get the top of the line iMac for 4000 euros only?
  24. deconstruct60 macrumors 604

    Mar 10, 2009
    I just went to the German site. Primarily, just skip buying RAM from Apple. That makes it tremendously easier and also just get a 512 SSD internal drive. 3.739 euros. Done. Doesn't mean finished but both of these 4K euro for iMac and 6K euro for Mac Pro is probably complete deployed system costs.

    Leaving "top of the line" from a CPU perspective, if you leave off the top end CPU ( which also relatively grossly overpaying for) then you can get more than decent amount of 3rd party RAM and additional storage capacity for 4K euros. 4.000 - 3.259 = $741 budget.

    But if go to 1TB SSD then at $3.979 which is approximately $4K. Even with Apple's recent price reductions their pricing after 1TB coupled to the ability to get fast external storage doesn't really make much sense.
  25. Trusteft macrumors 6502a


    Nov 5, 2014
    I see here in Greece were are still easily getting screwed.
    The 3979 euro machine in Germany, costs 1000 more here in Greece.
    I can make a trip to Germany, buy an iMac, stay for a couple of days at a hotel, see the local attractions, and still save money.

    Here is the site that Apple Greece (joke) sends their customers to

    They have the same price as other stores here. There is no official Apple store.

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47 July 16, 2019