But we don't know if they really will work as Crossfire in OS X and then it's all about the particular game and drivers. The 680 MX is not far off a single W5000 in pure "oomph" and some games are optimised to run better on Nvidia hardware. Firepro drivers in Windows are not optimised for gaming, but I don't know what the situation is/will be like in OS X.
Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
New Mac Pro thread (merged)
- Thread starter Supermacguy
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
But we don't know if they really will work as Crossfire in OS X and then it's all about the particular game and drivers. The 680 MX is not far off a single W5000 in pure "oomph" and some games are optimised to run better on Nvidia hardware. Firepro drivers in Windows are not optimised for gaming, but I don't know what the situation is/will be like in OS X.
You are probably right but here in Australia all the print shops ive worked at still use Mac pros. I got my boss to install SSD's in our Mac Pros so they perform well compared to my new personal 27" fully spec'd iMac.
You do know what card is in the iMac right? As good as it is, it's a mobile card. I think you may have it confused with the 680GTX or something.
We all seem to be forgetting that Apple has left off MANY details.
"Up to" means "Available but most won't order because it's too damn pricey"
No reason whatsoever to believe there won't be some Nvidia cards between "entry level cheapie" and "SO expensive only the IRS will order them"
In fact, a dear friend of mine has some info that he will hopefully share soon regarding this.
Consider that a FirePro 9000 is just a Radeon 7970 with a Tux and a GTX680 is VERY much like some other Nvidia cards...drivers already written....people whining about CUDA......
Assemble the dots.
"Up to" means "Available but most won't order because it's too damn pricey"
No reason whatsoever to believe there won't be some Nvidia cards between "entry level cheapie" and "SO expensive only the IRS will order them"
In fact, a dear friend of mine has some info that he will hopefully share soon regarding this.
Consider that a FirePro 9000 is just a Radeon 7970 with a Tux and a GTX680 is VERY much like some other Nvidia cards...drivers already written....people whining about CUDA......
Assemble the dots.
Yes of course, but the potential is there. I think the way things have been worded in regard to 3x4K displays means these will be crossfired and use eyefinity, but what that actually means across all applications, especially Mac gaming, will remain to be seen.
Why would I confuse the GTX 680 with a GTX 680MX? That would just be silly.
----------
Indeed. It would be nice if they could release all of the configuration info now, or at least give us a clue about the base configuration, but this is Apple we're talking about.
Is there a list somewhere that lists which applications will even benefit from multithread processors? Are we talking about Premiere, After Effects and some other 3D programs that will only see a gain?
Thanks.
Not particularly. It is the basically the same task done 3 times. That may need to dilute one of the x4 bundles into two x4's isn't that big of an increment.
None of that appears to be particularly accurate at all.
1. The dSL4510 is Thunderbolt 1.0. No change.
2. Sincethere is no change it has exactly the same PCI-e v2.0 links.
"... These two are replacements for Intel's current DSL3510 and DSL3310, with 4/2 and 2/1 (channels/ports) respectively. There are no performance changes other than official support for DisplayPort 1.2 (and thus 4K displays) ... "
" ... There's still a PCIe gen 2 x4 interface on the other end of these controllers ... "
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6885/...e-20gbps-falcon-ridge-tb-controller-announced
Intel has said a long while back that Thunderbolt v2.0 wasn't coming until about 2014. It is middle of 2013 which means anything new is likely still TB v.10.
Apple is claming the the Mac Pro will get Thunderbolt v2.0 chips. Those aren't on the market yet. There is an outside chance that PCI-e v3.0 could be added but none of the bandwidth improvements apply.
Outside of the Display Port 1.2 input streams changes in these interium TB chips and followed up on with Falcon Ridge (TB v2.0 ) the changes are more so in shuffling Thunderbolt's backbone bandwidth not the on/off ramp network edge connections.
" ... Named Thunderbolt 2, this next generation of the technology enables 4K video file transfer and display simultaneously thats a lot of eye-popping video and data capability. It is achieved by combining the two previously independent 10Gbs channels into one 20Gbs bi-directional channel that supports data and/or display. ..."
http://blogs.intel.com/technology/2...ndwidth-enabling-4k-video-transfer-display-2/
Intel reshuffled the same aggregate network bandwidth that was already there. Just rearrange the deck chairs. Not tweaking the PCI-e edge. That would be a horrible network upgrade to not increase overall bandwidth at all but increase the edges substantially. That is exactly backwards of the fat tree network (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tree) they should be trying to setup where the backbone is like 2x (or at least greater than ) the edges.
x1 to the cannonical controllers "tree leave nodes"
x4 from host to TB network "next highest "
> x4 for node-to-node TB traffic " highest "
Cranking up the bottom and leaving the top the same is only going to lead to network congestion and craptasic QoS on data delivery.
The DSL4510 is a stopap to all folks to put the TB socket into DP v1.2mode so it can take over and run 4K video
TB v2.0 is somewhat of a kludge so that don't have to drop back to DP v1.2 mod to get 4K video. They do that by "robbing Peter to pay Paul" and merge the two separate channels into one and then doling out more bandwidth to the 4K video traffic. It is obvious which has priority here. It isn't PCI-e data traffic.
If there is no 4K traffic (or any video) then will get better network QoS, but there is no indication at all that host side throughput is going to go up.
In that alternative world sure, but in this one it has got problems.
Apple has pretty mastered this. The problem they have in the > $2000 zone though is that there are lots of "pretty good" computing alternatives under that price point that are "good enough" for increasingly largely number of people.
There is a point at which you can be too much of a Scrooge McDuck. Too much of cost-cutter and fewer folks will by the high end goods . The Mac Pro needs to very clearly provide more perceived value to justify the higher price. Apple can blowing smoke up folks butt by saying the new Mac Pro is super magically delicious, revolutionary and cures world hunger but after a while that Joe Isuzu stuff really don't work so well. They actually have to add something with value to the system.
The system is smaller. Probably easier to make after tool-up for the new set of parts. Certiainly easier and cheaper to ship and inventory. Apple can take those savings and put higher value added parts into the system. The margins stay exactly the same, ( i.e., they tread water.)
Dual GPUs ... well guess what the other CPU is gone in half the line up. Trading X for Y and the mark-up is the same leads to same margins. The lowest end of the line up had even bigger margins. Goosing the entry box's margins into the stratosphere certainly did NOT help the overall product. In fact, it appears to have almost gotten the whole product category cancelled.
If gen 2 can stick on same switch at TB controller. Not a big deal.
None of that is in Texas ( an old Dell plant) where reported the new USA Apple line up is to be made. So still nothing here screaming Foxconn.
Honestly Apple needs other working relationships than just Foxconn. Jobs was good at some things but sometimes his OCD got in the way. Einstein had quote. "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Having multiple vendor relationships is necessarily for a global mutlinational company. Trying to feed everything to exactly one supplier is not a good idea long term.
Yes, but I'm under the impression it still uses one of the gen 2 PCIe lanes to transfer that data.
I'll dig a bit later, as I am curious.
Doubling the the "on ramp" isn't going to change the freeway speedlimit. Those actually should be operating at two different speeds. Chaning the native thunderbolt ( not native PCI-e ) data throughput speeds will change Thunderbolt bandwidth. The transported protocols data operate their own, slower speed and bandwidth.
If Transporting 4K video there isn't 20Gb/s available for PCI-e data traffic.
If not transporting 4K video 20Gb/s improves QoS.
that is basically what Intel is saying above. Bonding two separate channels into one channel is reshuffling the exact same deck.
The PCI-e v3 protocol are completely oblivious to what is happening on the Thunderbolt network. Changing them isn't going to make TB backbone network faster. In fact the drama for the TB network just increase because not has to do more isochronous traffic management than before when the traffic was more hard segmented.
Right which what it would dubious to choke faster by putting a faster "on ramp" for the PCI-e data ( i.e., a v3 ramp.)
Until Intel can actually move the aggregate bandwidth forward, the PCI-e data "on/off ramp" is likely going to be stuck at v2.0. Couple that it will be hard for x1 v2 controllers to go to 0.5 v3 controllers.... ( they don't need any more speed) and the TB will also more inclined to stay at v2.0
The notion that Thunderbolt was primarily creating for ultra super duper DAS and/r utltra Gamer eGPU is just way disconnected from the reality.
Apple's Thunderbolt docking station/display. That's what Thunderbolt is aimed at.
Forgive me if I'm not super thrilled with "Wait and hope Apple fills in the blanks".
Oh, me either. I'm just saying that in the list of things you will shortly be forced to pay double-retail for is probably an Nvidia card or 2.
Thoughts on the ommision of Digitial Audio Out?
I work semi-professionally on Logic and knew that old Mac Pro's and current Apple TV's had them. Not really sure of what their use was apart from connecting out to high end sound systems.
Is the ommision a big deal to anybody? Thoughts? I always thought their inclusion was a Steve Jobs descicion coming from the fact that he thought of himself as a sort of audiophile..
I work semi-professionally on Logic and knew that old Mac Pro's and current Apple TV's had them. Not really sure of what their use was apart from connecting out to high end sound systems.
Is the ommision a big deal to anybody? Thoughts? I always thought their inclusion was a Steve Jobs descicion coming from the fact that he thought of himself as a sort of audiophile..
You are exactly the person that I and many others hate. You are a person that is never happy. A person that whines like a baby not getting the latest and greatest. A person that basically is a spoiled brat. Leading edge means nothing if you can't use it. And the whining about which version, geez, get over it. If I want leading edge, I'll buy a high-end gaming or work station from the Dark-side. But that does not equal productivity.
I like it the design is awesome. The hardware IMO is fine for me. I just hope the workmanship is good considering it is made in the USA. If it is built in a non-union shop than maybe it might be good. If it built by union thugs, I won't buy it. That is like buying a Chevy built in Youngstown, Ohio.
As for the design, it is a "10." No other computer manufacturer can even come close to this. I can't wait to purchase one.
In all the discussion here, there's one question, which few have asked.
We all know apple prefers to introduce hardware, which is ready to ship - the last 27" iMac being one example of what may happen if the HW is not ready to ship.
This "we'll give you a sneak peek" - is highly suspicious, and the dearth of details opens up to many interpretations:
Firstly, why the sneak peek? Was apple really worrying, that Pro users were about to abandon the platform. Will this address that?
Secondly, I remember, that when M$ introduced surface many tech pundits as well as many forum members here were asking the highly relevant question "..., but what about price, specs and specs/price?" By revealing the design, as well as some vague promises (which can be seen as an indication of the BEST-setup in the initial launch), but without saying a word about the price, Apple has opened itself up to a lot of criticism and rumormongering. Now usually Apple may consider rumors as a friend of sorts, but this is a different situation. IF only Phil had said "(And although we have not yet decided on the detailed specs) we guarantee that the processing power offered in this setup will be at least N % cheaper than in the latest revision of the old mac pro..."
Why no details? I mean, every tach savvy listener/reader can figure out exactly which 12 core Xeon this will be, and can start reading up on the details, but: What kinds of PCIe SSD speeds and capacities are we talking about? How much RAM can you install? Will there be single/dual CPU options? Will there be single/dual GPU options? Is apple talking with OEM's about accessories? What will the price points be? Will the base setup's price start with a 1 or a 2? Will it reach a geekbench in the excess of 25k? Does this machine finally crack the 6-second barrier in the retouchartists Photoshop benchmark?
Does the machine actually exist or were the pixar types elegizing based on the spec sheet?
So what exactly is the message here?
- "We're serious about our Pro users, and we don't want to keep you in limbo, so instead we're showing what we're planning and simultaneously show our commitment" (This was how I interpreted it)
- "We have this idea, and we know it's far off base, so we want to present the idea and gauge your reactions"
- "We have this chassis, but there's still months to launch, so if you start telling us what you want it filled with and what you find lacking, we'll start discussing with our long-time OEM's"
- "We really think the PC is dead, so instead we're making PC's which don't look like PC's"
- "We have this idea, but we don't really yet know how to pull it off. But hey, we're at Apple, so we're going to figure it out eventually. And our share price needs a boost (which is why we're telling you now)."
- <add your own explanation>
RGDS,
It probably isn't omitted. There is digital audio. There is just not an standard optical digital output socket. Most of the entire Mac line up has transition to the same digital audio through the headphone jack that the iOS devices use.
There other alternative is that there is an HDMI port. Unless it is inhibited in some why that should be able to send a 5.1 signal (or just play stereo) to any AV receiver that processes HDMI output. In short, it isn't just purely video that goes out over HDMI.
The specific optical audio port is bit like the omission of the optical drive. It is probably on Apple's obsolete list. It doesn't mean can't get digital out. It is an indication that in the future most folks aren't going to want to ( or perfer that port). Only legacy equipment is the primary requirement for it.
I doubt Jobs was keeping a large CD collection. This is the same boat. All the Intel chipsets ( including this workstation/server one) have HD audio built in. The issue is what physical connectors run out.
Is this "studio quality" analog audio coming out? No. But the digital signal can be shipped out to external digitial-to-analog converter that does have studio quality conversion characteristics.
It is a relatively straightforward message that isn't complicated. The Mac Pro in its now old format is cancelled. This is to a large extent just like the cancellation of the XServe in that Apple gave users who needed one (and had been in a longer purchase order process to get one) several months to buy before they go away.
The primary difference here is that Apple isn't totally pulling out of this market and will continue to use the name.
Another similar thing is where Apple cancelled the MacBook in July but keep it on just in the educational store. Again there was a signifcant number of organizations that had lined up to buy MacBook and changing relatively shortly before the school year started would be a problem.
If need a current Mac Pro like container for your work, then need to evaluate if adding some 3rd party GPU cards will be good enough. It isn't for everybody but for folks that need a 1-2 of continuity before do a major platform change it can be an option.
Apple is highly unlikely to position this new box to kill off iMac sales. So if primarily looking for significant percentage points cheaper, you are probably going to be disappointed.
Going to a default of two custom workstation GPUs is not a move toward "cheaper". That should be a clear indication that doesn't need alot of explanation from Apple.
How is it a sneak peek if they release all the details. It is what they overtly said it is.
Right so they did give more information for those who are informed.
You mean besides the speeds posted on their website? [Go to the storage section on new Mac Pro and see the "1250MB/s" posted on page.
You did say that you can figure out which Xeon this is right? The pictures obviously have 4 DIMM slots on them. This isn't classified "Top Secret" info.
He's not a whiner. Superior, conceited, condescending and a windbag? Yes. But a whiner, certainly not.
Well, thank you for a long-winded response, which quite entirely missed the point:
- Apple does not regularly do sneak peeks. So why exactly are they doing so now, when this sneak peek only opens up a pandora's chest of detailed questions?
- Does this bit of information actually help Apple's position in the Pro market?
And BTW, all the questions I quoted have been raised at least once on these forums, so they are not my questions, but an example of the questions Apple's sharing of information has raised.
The argument you make in the section quoted above, that the sneak peek offers those who want to hang on to the old form factor an opportunity to do so may be valuable, but has nevertheless has two flaws: One logical and one practical:
- the logic flaw is in assuming that Apple could not do what most companies would do when they introduce a revolutionary product, i.e. keep selling the old one as well, or reintroduce a somewhat crippled model (as Apple in fact did with the MDD2003).
- the practical flaw is that the oMP is not on sale in a significant part of the world (but I admit this is minor - in the end the EU is (as a market) not much larger than the US - as measured by GDP in 2011).
Kind regards,
Prefect for the new OS.
Attachments
It should be 'their', showing ownership. Please learn to speak before typing on blogs.
JUST KIDDING BRO. LOL
Please learn the difference between speak and write. If he was speaking, then you would not have known the difference.
Because Apple usually just skips the "If you still need on they are still for sale.". When Apple releases the new Mac Pro the old one is toast.
They are giving folks a break because this is a continuity break for a significant number of folks.
Apple has no expectations at all that 100% or even 90% of the old Mac Pro customers are coming with them. A decent sized percentage are going to part ways.
This is a nice way of parting ways. So this is not a normal release. It is part product cancellation and never before new product release. So not really going to follow normal Apple procedures. Invoking the Osborne effect last June wasn't normal Apple procedure either.
The exact same "I'm not paying attention" stuff happened with FCPX. Apple gave sneak peak. And then when FCPX shipped all kind of folks came out the woodwork yelping about how they couldn't buy the old FCP anymore. Well it is standard Apple practice to stop selling the old stuff when the new stuff is announced. Happens every single time. All the time. But these folks were "shocked" that Apple stopped the old one even though given a warning.
Now for software typically there used to be just a month or so before corporate and those who know the backdoor to the catalog could get the old ones for continuity means. ( all this App Store stuff probably means screwed if don't have local back-ups. )
This has far more to do with "enterprise"/"large organization"/"complex purchase order" customers and slow motion reaction cycles than anything to do with Apple or their marketing.
A bit flabbergasted you have never come across folks in the forum yelping about how Apple has to give them roadmaps and long lead times to make their purchasing decisions. They have appeared ad nauseam over the last 2 years.
Now when Apple actually does give a roadmaps folks are confusion as to what complication hidden agenda there is. Whatever. Apply Occams Razor. If Apple says it is a sneak peek it is probably just that a sneak peak.
A subset of the information.
That isn't particularly logical because Apple doesn't behave that way. Picking out a few special cases doesn't establish their usual pattern. The pattern is announce and kill the old one.
It isn't that they could not. It is that it is there standing policy to cancel stuff. The old one used to be a 'great product'. This new one is now a 'great product'. They can't both be great. The king is dead, long life the king.
Yeah. If Apple was being nice they should have announced they were stopping Mac Pros in EU back in December and that it would just be the EU and nothing to do with the new Mac Pro.
It was very bad news. Corporations tend to want to bury bad news. Especialy when it is embarrasing because they screwed themselves with some huge mistake. If you go back and look Apple sandwiched that EU lockout right between two 'big good news" press releases the day before and the day after. (maybe record holiday sales and some new iOS/iTunes milestone ). It is irrational but they hoped it would disappear.
So yeah... alot of times Apple just jumps out the closet, yells surprise and screws people with long acquisition cycles. This waring is actually them being nice. I suspect more than a few folks in the EU told them they were unnecessarily screwing them over this Spring and explain the "proper" way of doing things to them in detail using colorful language. That probably helped motivate this "sneak peak".
