New MacBook Airs: Flash drive TRIM Support?

Discussion in 'MacBook Air' started by bobdolee, Oct 21, 2010.

  1. bobdolee macrumors newbie

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    #1
    Could someone check in their System Profiler -> Serial-ATA
    TRIM would be really useful during the lifetime of the flash drive.

    Thanks!
     
  2. ImperialX macrumors 65816

    ImperialX

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    #2
    Yes, the SSDs in the new MBAs do support TRIM, but Mac OS X does not.
     
  3. bobdolee thread starter macrumors newbie

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    Feb 18, 2004
    #3
    Ah darn, one would think that Apple would support TRIM now that flash drives are standard on the Air, but alas. Maybe in Lion.
     
  4. J400uk macrumors regular

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    Apr 3, 2008
    #4
    Windows 7 should support the TRIM functionality of the SSD if you dual boot.
     
  5. fuzzielitlpanda macrumors 6502a

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    Mar 24, 2008
    #5
    unfortunately TRIM will only be supported on the windows partition, not the mac even under bootcamp
     
  6. M87 macrumors 65816

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    Jul 18, 2009
    #6
    I believe andy ihnatko tweeted yesterday that it doesnt, but maybe he was mistaken.
     
  7. ImperialX macrumors 65816

    ImperialX

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    #7
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    Mac OS X just doesn't support it right now. There's nothing vague.
     
  8. idea_hamster macrumors 65816

    idea_hamster

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    #8
    Is there a possibility that the controller runs some type of SSD-level garbage collection?

    Also, do we know whether the controller is SandForce-based or something more along the lines of the Samsung ones used in the BTO SSDs?

    Given Anandtech's grim review of non-TRIM, non-garbage collection Samsung SSDs, these might be useful things to know. However, I wouldn't be surprised to find that Apple has decided that the admittedly brutal and highly unlikely test environment that Anandtech used to show Samsung SSD speeds worse than rotational media is too far afield from normal use to spend time/money avoiding.
     
  9. jagger27 macrumors member

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    Feb 16, 2010
    #9
    Considering how many of these Apple will sell, there's no question that would include at least some low level controller-based GC.

    Looking at the performance of the SSD so far, I'm betting it has a great controller.
     
  10. idea_hamster macrumors 65816

    idea_hamster

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    #10
    I would love to be so optimistic, but my understanding is that (1) the BTO SSDs offered in other models don't have any type of GC or equivalent and (2) while initial performance is excellent due to the availability of as-of-yet-unwritten space, this performance degrades quite substantially over the life of the drive.

    I believe this was what prompted Apple to remove their claim that the SSD option improved performance. Rather, they now simply say that it improves reliability since it has no moving parts.

    If these drives do run GC, I do believe it would be a material change for Apple -- and a very positive one at that! However, it is not clear that they do and we have seen Apple quite happily charge a premium for drives that do not.
     
  11. chiamac macrumors newbie

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    Oct 20, 2010
    #11
    Let's say there is no GC and the performance goes downhill later, can simply formatting and reinstalling or reimaging restore it to fresh out-of-factory performance?
     
  12. bobdolee thread starter macrumors newbie

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    Feb 18, 2004
    #12
    Unfortunately due to the limitations of current flash (I think I can't be the only one who hates having to use that word) technology, simply reformatting won't restore factory performance. I have an Intel X25M G2 SSD, and every 6 months or so, there is a noticeable decrease in performance, and I have to open up my MacBook Pro, take out the drive, and reflash it through a friend's PC desktop using Intel's SSD Toolbox. Then reinstall Snow Leopard and everything else.

    If you want to read a very long primer on SSD and their related technology, I suggest you read this: http://www.anandtech.com/show/2738

    This is my biggest concern regarding these laptops. Without a way of reflashing the flash drive in them, are they continually decreasing in performance? Without TRIM or garbage collection, I fear this will be the case.
     
  13. Full of Win macrumors 68030

    Full of Win

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    #13
    This is my one reservation on the new MBA. This, and the use of MLC I assume (given 64 GB of SLC is over half the price of the Air). Guess I may have to Wait for 10.7, since I cannot see them leaving out TRIM in this release.
     
  14. NintendoFan macrumors regular

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    Apr 14, 2006
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    Massachusetts
    #14
    According to Anand there is some GC going on:

    http://twitter.com/anandshimpi/status/28432034424

    I'm sure we'll find out more when he does his full review.
     
  15. Hellhammer Moderator

    Hellhammer

    Staff Member

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    Dec 10, 2008
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    Finland
    #15
    Boot Camp = Windows partition

    Boot Camp doesn't do anything else but creates a partition and restarts the computer for you

    That's very good news. Hopefully Anand will soon be ready with his article, so much speculation going around

    BTW;

    http://twitter.com/anandshimpi/status/28431688100
     
  16. diddl14 macrumors 6502a

    diddl14

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    Aug 10, 2009
    #16
    [​IMG]
    (sorry for the German, taken in Austrian retail store..)

    More background on the MBA SSD in this thread
     
  17. Full of Win macrumors 68030

    Full of Win

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    #17
    Thank God it does not have wechselmedien...whatever that is. Sounds like a disease.
     
  18. itommyboy macrumors 6502a

    itommyboy

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    #18

    I've been one click away from a max bto 13" at least 10 times now, but this is what keeps me hitting the cancel button instead. Unfortunately only time will truly tell. :( Then there is always Lion to look forward to I can't imagine Apple exlucding TRIM support in 10.7.
     
  19. itommyboy macrumors 6502a

    itommyboy

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    #19

    LOL be careful what you wish for...it means "removable media" in English. :D
     
  20. Dmac77 macrumors 68020

    Dmac77

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    Jan 2, 2008
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    Michigan
    #20
    Yes that "Removable Storage" STD is supposed to be particularly bad, it makes the MBA's breakout it little red bumps; really quite a horrible disease:D

    -Don
     
  21. diddl14 macrumors 6502a

    diddl14

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    Aug 10, 2009
    #21
    Well, you might get disappointed. As Apple has obviously taken the step to even disable TRIM support on the hardware level for the new MBA's, its very unlikely that it will ever be supported in OSX :( See this thread for further background on the SSD hardware.

    UPDATE: seems that the hardware reporting of OSX is not accurate. It currently always reports TRIM:NO, even with SSD's that are confirmed to support TRIM. So it might still be that the onboard flash storage support TRIM.
     
  22. ImperialX macrumors 65816

    ImperialX

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    #22
    Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_1 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/532.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/4.0.5 Mobile/8B117 Safari/6531.22.7)

    Just install Windows 7 onto a separate partition, and every few months, format the Mac partition with NTFS, boot into Windows 7, run the TRIM command, then reformat it back to HFS+ and install OS X. Problem solved.
     
  23. mdatwood macrumors 6502a

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    Mar 14, 2010
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    Denver, CO
    #23
    I'm amazed that something like the above is even considered an acceptable solution. Everyday macs seem to be moving farther and farther away from 'just works.' If Windows didn't support TRIM and this solution was offered up the Apple fans would have a field day.
     
  24. HLdan macrumors 603

    HLdan

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2007
    #24
    There has been no evidence of degradation of someone's Mac's SSD that renders all this crap about no TRIM support. Even if degradation happens it would take a considerably long time of hard use. People need to stop spreading FUD unless you have concrete evidence of a Mac SSD degrading and in need of TRIM.
     
  25. bouncer1 macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    #25
    It's not the drive that degrades it's the drive's responsiveness, which has to be fixed then via formatting and re-copying everything. This has been noted. I agre with you that there's a lot of disproportional fud here. But it's real issue that ssds with no trim have to be manually cleaned up to get back the performance after a point.
     

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