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Dont Hurt Me said:
... this planet doesnt want to explore space, just the appearance of a space program. We need a new non political space agency who has a goal of exploring space instead of Pork. Happy thanksgiving you pork explorers.:eek:

"Space" is easy to explore. It's 99.999999% of what's out there. It's other galaxies and their planets which would be interesting, and those pesky laws of physics are going to keep us away from them. Best we're going to do is learn about our own solar system as much as we can and robots are fast becoming the smartest way to do that. Stereoscopic high-res video beamed via galactic broadband will be as close as we get to most of the bodies in our system, but a pack of 50 robots spread over a planet's (or moon's) surface will be able to bring us back much more varied data at a much cheaper cost (both monetarily AND physically) than a half dozen astronauts. We're a LOT closer to having robots with enough artificial intelligence to take samples and analyze them, as well as pick the best places to go, than we are to being able to send a bevy of people to Mars and back alive.

Real science will come back to the space program after this nationalistic "go to Mars" nudge runs it course (unsuccessfully of course).
 
I would like to add to this most interesting discussion.

One, a very interesting book to read is "Skunk Works" by Ben Rich. It covers the U2, SR71 (My personal favorite airplane) and the F117A. When you consider that they used slide rules to design the U2 and SR-71, they become even more awe inspiring. And the history of computing power can be seen between the F117A and B2 (Flat plate vice curved surface stealth). This book also discusses some changes in the aerospace industry over the years. It gives the reader a front seat perspective on how things were done.

Two, having seeing the inside of one of the Apollo capsules, one can really see how it was primitive yet complex for the time. NASA of then was a premier organization. Not sure about them today. Back in the 70's, my group was in close contact with NASA and the Shuttle design. At that time, they had planned three versions. The final version being able to take off and land like an airplane. Unfortunately, we only have seen the first version. By now, we should have seen the third iteration.

Three, when you are in space, you cannot just pull over to fix whatever might be wrong. Things must be fail safe. NASA tends to use proven technology when possible vice untried/unproven technology. Because it must work.

Fourth, with the end of the Cold War, the so called Space Race has languished. Back then, we could say to beat the "Reds", "Commies", "Russians", etc. Now why do we do it? Harder to get a perspective.

Fifth, why should we explore and settle in outer space? First and foremost new technologies spin from space exploration (and military research). Many of the common place items that we use today were spun from the military industrial complex (which includes NASA) such as the microwave, GPS, Sonar, Radar, etc. So many of these inventions are common place that we never think of them. Another good reason that for space exploration is to expand the human race seeding should something happen to the Earth in the future. Some would boil down the Apollo program to this. "Why did we send men to the moon?" "To see if we could do it."

Sixth, approach is very important. Many years ago when NASA was designing things for space they decided that they needed a pen to be able to write in zero G. I forget how much money was spent on this research, but adjusted for inflation, I am sure that it was in the millions. Many pens use the technology today. So there was commercial benefit. The Russians on the other hand used a pencil. Simple and cheap. And it worked. My point being is that as technology spins out of control (as in hard to keep up) we must make good decisions so as to maximize the use of dwindling funding for the programs so as to not waste funds on things we do not need.

Well, I've probably said way too much. I remember the thrill of the Apollo missions and when Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin landed on the moon. I wish we could once again see and feel the thrill of space travel. :)

Sushi
 
You've got the Gulf coast, you've got Iraq, you've got whatever else, and you've got whatever next... Forget the gung-ho attitude, America, and get your house in order first. Hey! Trousers up! There is no space race. But there's plenty else to spend your 'bucks' on. Diverting your attention (or anybody else's) to the sky is not going to solve your problems back on earth.
 
The Major obsticle is Nasa wanting to be the one desiging things, Shuttle came out of that beauracracy and today Nasa is stuck in the Mud, not going anywhere because even though it wants to get away from shuttle it wants to keep using 90% of it for Apollo 2.0. Shuttle is sucking up every $, every idea, every innovation so in the end we have a shuttle that is using up all of Nasas budget and still not going anywhere.

Nasa needs to step back and say to the private companys get us to low orbit, then they need a real space vehicle, not another shot from the earth to the moon but a craft built to stay in space with rotating crews just like in the sub service. Something designed for Space not Political pork. A craft that can explore the inner planets, chase asteroids, a Ion drive Nuclear powered ship....Not Chemical rockets, Apollo 2.0 is just more Apollo, we can do better with vision and less pork.
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
The Major obsticle is Nasa wanting to be the one desiging things, Shuttle came out of that beauracracy and today Nasa is stuck in the Mud, not going anywhere because even though it wants to get away from shuttle it wants to keep using 90% of it for Apollo 2.0. Shuttle is sucking up every $, every idea, every innovation so in the end we have a shuttle that is using up all of Nasas budget and still not going anywhere.

Nasa needs to step back and say to the private companys get us to low orbit, then they need a real space vehicle, not another shot from the earth to the moon but a craft built to stay in space with rotating crews just like in the sub service. Something designed for Space not Political pork. A craft that can explore the inner planets, chase asteroids, a Ion drive Nuclear powered ship....Not Chemical rockets, Apollo 2.0 is just more Apollo, we can do better with vision and less pork.

Unfortunately, Apollo 2.0 is the only thing that can happen within the short attention span of the American public. Other types of drives (other than chemical) are being worked on slowly and incrementally and are being tested in probes first, just as they should be, and will be workable some day to use for crews, but not on a timetable we can stomach OR envision.

Bush's trip to the Moon and Mars is simply a political diversion from what's going on in Iraq, unfortunately at the expense of useful science. The dates he mentioned for those trips will fluctuate and get pushed back like a Microsoft release date (along with the stripping of features and purpose).

Remember how we were expected to have flying cars by now (according to 1950's futurists)? The future always gets here, but much slower than we think. We may have colonies on the Moon or Mars someday, but it wasn't "Space 1999" for having bases (Alpha!) on the Moon, nor "2001" for visiting Jupiter, and it won't be 2020 for going to Mars successfully. Especially since there are so many more compelling ways to spend our money now, keeping the one planet we know we can live on in working order.

I can imagine getting people to Mars (and hopefully back!) by 2040 or so, but I see no real, populated bases on the Moon or Mars during this century.
 
sushi said:
I would like to add to this most interesting discussion.


Sixth, approach is very important. Many years ago when NASA was designing things for space they decided that they needed a pen to be able to write in zero G. I forget how much money was spent on this research, but adjusted for inflation, I am sure that it was in the millions. Many pens use the technology today. So there was commercial benefit. The Russians on the other hand used a pencil. Simple and cheap. And it worked. My point being is that as technology spins out of control (as in hard to keep up) we must make good decisions so as to maximize the use of dwindling funding for the programs so as to not waste funds on things we do not need.

Sushi

This is urban legend... NASA sent out a RFP (request for proposal) and a company called Fisher answered with a pen that used compressed nitrogen to ensure ink flow.
 
jane doe said:
This is urban legend... NASA sent out a RFP (request for proposal) and a company called Fisher answered with a pen that used compressed nitrogen to ensure ink flow.
Funny but so true, Nasa are experts at Paper Production. Use shuttle for a few very important things like Hubble and put that Pig in a Museum. We need a great Low Orbit craft and im sure Scaled & Rhutan could do it, We need again a real spacecraft not more chemical rockets. This should be the clowns at Nasa's Xprize. Super high power Ion engine, then build a craft around that engine. As long as Nasa keeps on with chemicals we wont have anything more then we did in 60s.:(
 
The real problem is cost per pound to LEO (Low Earth Orbit). The space shuttle was to be the answer to this by a matter of scale. they thought that if they were able to launch about 3 times a month then the cost would come down. This is true only for sub orbital flights.

When you want to go beyond LEO then the cost goes up. Right now the best we have it still several thousand a pound. NASA has figured out that unless you want to create a whole new infrastructure then you have to send missions up in two medium lift vehicles. The Saturn program was a heavy lift vehicle and since that time we have not invested the money to maintain human rated heavy lift.

As for the ISS, the major problem with that is that its more of a geo-political experiment then a science endeavor. Since we wanted Russia to be involved so bad we allowed them to pick an orbit that was too high an inclination for which we could reasonably launch from north america. This is why it cost so much to send the shuttle.

The thing that i over looked with this new system is that 1) it is "open sourced" meaning that its easy to have multiple contractors build parts.
2) Its expandable.. See number 1
3) its a pay as you go. We are using the SRBs from the shuttle and the XFT. the only thing that will be "new" is the CEV and that is not only a take off of the Apollo but also a design that was selected originally for a crew escape vehicle for the ISS. They chose to increase the internal volume and use modern materials and technology.

What the news is not reporting is that this program is several years in the making.. this is not something that Bush said do and was done. He told them he wanted to go back to the moon and they already had about 85% of this system done.
 
What we are going to end up with is more of nothing............but it will cost us billions & billions and in the end we have a Apollo redo. Its time for Nasa to get out of it if thats the best they can do. 1.5 billion dollars for a foam fix thats not working huh??? 1.5 Billion in Burt Rhutans hands would have us a Low orbit spacecraft for petes sake that works.
Thats the Nasa difference. Take something that should cost a buck and make it cost a 1,000 times that then produce paper to back it up.
 
Well the problem is not so much 1.5 Billion for foam. Getting something like Rutan's system in to orbit is more complex then an elliptical flight. It it easier to get into orbit then it is to get out of it. The propulsion system Rutan is using is good, but it wont carry the mass needed to get to leo. Even with improvements your problem is slowing down enough to reenter without needing thermal protection like the shuttles and maintain some sort of controllability.
 
jane doe said:
Well the problem is not so much 1.5 Billion for foam. Getting something like Rutan's system in to orbit is more complex then an elliptical flight. It it easier to get into orbit then it is to get out of it. The propulsion system Rutan is using is good, but it wont carry the mass needed to get to leo. Even with improvements your problem is slowing down enough to reenter without needing thermal protection like the shuttles and maintain some sort of controllability.
I know that but the problem at the moment is we dont have a cost effective way to orbit, or any way for that matter because shuttle is like a blackhole in the middle of Nasa's desk sucking billions $$$ down the drain and giving back 1 flight a year to low orbit. Until Nasa lets go of the Pork it aint going anywhere.
 
Mr. Anderson said:
The other thing is there is no Cold War - so we're not *racing* to get to the moon and NASA isn't the same as it was in the 60s. I don't think its a matter of not being as smart as the guys in the 60s, its a matter of bloating and bureaucracy....

Besides, it doesn't have the appeal that it once did, getting to the Moon. I'm all in favor for it, but it just needs to be done right.

Thanatoast has a good point - set up a shuttle service to the moon. One of the reason that the shuttles are in such need of repair is the lift off and re entry. If its just going back and forth to the Moon and Earth, there will be a lot less structural wear and tear. Also, you could set it up as a conveyor system, always have a shuttle in motion and just used a different one to temporarily dock from Earth or the Moon. This way the Moon/Earth shuttle is constantly using the gravity assist from orbiting the two planets to keep its speed. All you need to do is have the Earth rendezvous ship to transfer new oxygen and some smaller amount of fuel for orbit/speed adjustments - along with crews and supplies.

You could end up having a daily shuttle or even hourly shuttle, with a whole fleet of them coming and going at the same time.

D

The Shuttle was never designed to go to the moon. It does not have the needed radiation protection, propulsion or systems to make it to the moon. Suppose you retro fitted the shuttle to go to the moon... Why would you want the added cost of the extra mass of the wings that are not needed in translunar flight? The shuttle was designed for low orbit and to carry light to medium mass. Apollo was the better system. the entire STS infrastructure was an exercise in reusability. thats it... nothing more. There is nothing more the shuttle can do for us after the ISS has been completed.
 
Dont Hurt Me said:
I know that but the problem at the moment is we dont have a cost effective way to orbit, or any way for that matter because shuttle is like a blackhole in the middle of Nasa's desk sucking billions $$$ down the drain and giving back 1 flight a year to low orbit. Until Nasa lets go of the Pork it aint going anywhere.


Agreed. but I don't look for private space companies to get is "into" orbit for several years. and for the foreseeable future, we are stuck with chemical rockets. Once you get out of orbit and you are going a fair distance then ion propulsion is a good choice.

Even with Ion drives you need to improve the impulse to where you can get a acceleration of 1g.

As far as getting into orbit Rutan is on the right track using aircraft launch. I think that within 5 years this system will be perfected to the point where you could do a extremely low orbit docking with a booster to get into orbit or even translunar.
 
Lacero said:
China's looking to do the same. I think they are crazy! :p

China Aims to Put Man on Moon by 2020

Here's to the Crazy Ones

Not crazy in the least. They will beat the U.S. back to the moon AND they will have a better system to do it with. The U.S. might have more available know-how, but the Chinese have more manpower, less red-tape, more nationalistic fervor and an "incentive" system that is a little too flexible with human rights.

Hello premier 21st century superpower...
 
jane doe said:
Even with Ion drives you need to improve the impulse to where you can get a acceleration of 1g.

I believe the force of current ion engines is roughly that of what you'd feel if a sheet of notebook paper fell on your hand. It's just that this force is constant and it builds up over time. This doesn't seem to be the drive of TIE fighter lore... :p
 
jane doe said:
The Shuttle was never designed to go to the moon. It does not have the needed radiation protection, propulsion or systems to make it to the moon. Suppose you retro fitted the shuttle to go to the moon... Why would you want the added cost of the extra mass of the wings that are not needed in translunar flight? The shuttle was designed for low orbit and to carry light to medium mass. Apollo was the better system. the entire STS infrastructure was an exercise in reusability. thats it... nothing more. There is nothing more the shuttle can do for us after the ISS has been completed.


I wasn't talking about "The Shuttle" (the one we use today) but a different, space based shuttle. And if it was space based, it wouldn't look anything like the current one - no heat tiles, no wings, etc. You could either make it something that fits in one rocket or assemble pieces, modules, in orbit. The whole idea was that you'd have something that wouldn't be submitted to the same stresses as the current shuttle.

Also, one really good way of making it radiation resistant would be to surround the whole thing with ice - water does a really good job of radiation shielding and it could be used for fuel :D

D
 
Returning to the moon would be a waste of resources

There are many, many better uses for our worldly resources geared to scientific discovery and exploration than a return visit to the moon.

What possible benefit do we get from returning to the moon? AFAIK there are no rare minerals on the moon and getting there and staying there will require enormous amounts of resources to mount such a mission. What is the goal? I propose several other science projects that could be completed that will return far greater knowledge than going to the moon:

1. Fix or replace the Hubble Space Telescope. I still can't believe that NASA is considering a deorbit when this nation spends/wastes so many resources on other enterprises. $1-2 Billion.

2. Fund JIMO. The Jupiter Icy Moons Orbiter was to revisit the exciting moons of Jupiter to among other things looks for life on Europa and finish the research of the Jovian system that Galileo could not complete. $5 Billion.

3. Complete the SSC. Completing the Super Conducting Supercollider in Texas could yeild far more answers about energy and particle physics and the structure of the universe than other devices currenty existing, in construction, or planned. The SSC was cancelled to the fund the ISS and can someone please tell me one significant breakthrough they have achieved with this mass of orbiting space junk? $10 Billion.

4. Fund missions to the outer planets. Uranus, Neptune, and Pluto are still relatively or completely unexplored. The only data we have is from a brief flyby of Voyager 2 in 1986 of Uranus and 1989 of Neptune. We have never sent a probe to Pluto. $5 Billion each for $15 Billion.

5. Explore Lake Vostok in Antarctica. Lake Vostok in Antarctica may contain life forms as yet undiscoverd on earth. Also, the work that goes into engineering a probe could be reused in JIMO. $500 Million.

I sometimes wish I had Bill Gates $46 Billion fortune. Bill could easily fund all of these projects and live to see the rewards of his contribution during his lifetime. All of these projects could be easily funded and completed for less than $35 Billion.
 
electronboy said:
There are many, many better uses for our worldly resources geared to scientific discovery and exploration than a return visit to the moon.

3. Complete the SSC. Completing the Super Conducting Supercollider in Texas could yeild far more answers about energy and particle physics and the structure of the universe than other devices currenty existing, in construction, or planned. The SSC was cancelled to the fund the ISS and can someone please tell me one significant breakthrough they have achieved with this mass of orbiting space junk? $10 Billion.


The land they were building the SSC on has already been sold and the SSC is already outdated by other projects being built and CERN (I think, I've been out of the particle physics field for several years).

I work with a lot of the guys that worked on the SSC and a good friend of worked across the hall from the designers and she felt that it was doomed from the start.
 
Mr. Anderson said:
Also, one really good way of making it radiation resistant would be to surround the whole thing with ice - water does a really good job of radiation shielding and it could be used for fuel :D

D

Water is a good idea, I've heard others mention that before. I would ask a metallurgist if there was not a option with less mass. When you are talking about translunar flights, every gram counts ;)
 
jayscheuerle said:
I believe the force of current ion engines is roughly that of what you'd feel if a sheet of notebook paper fell on your hand. It's just that this force is constant and it builds up over time. This doesn't seem to be the drive of TIE fighter lore... :p


Correct. This seems to be a limit due to power source, For missions of any great distance (interchange for time) 1g would be optimal since you could accelerate at 1g half way there, then turn the vehicle around and decelerate at 1g. Building with this type of flight profile in mine one could solve the long term zero g exposure.

Ion propulsion is good for long duration burns of a constant impulse. Typically this will be done with a modest mass.
 
jayscheuerle said:
Not crazy in the least. They will beat the U.S. back to the moon AND they will have a better system to do it with. The U.S. might have more available know-how, but the Chinese have more manpower, less red-tape, more nationalistic fervor and an "incentive" system that is a little too flexible with human rights.

Hello premier 21st century superpower...


I wouldn't say they have a better system to do it. We have forty years of proven technology in ours. They are starting from scratch. They may (and I believe they will) end up with a very good system but I do not thank they will be able to do it as rapidly as they think.
 
What we need is a comet or asteroid chaser, destroyer or deflector if you will and a bunch of giant scopes looking everywhere for the next rock, We just saw how Jupiter got slammed, this is what we need as a race to survive the next impact not another fancy dancy Apollo Moon Mission. Priority one should be that along with a great way to orbit......that works, is safe,inexpensive and has very fast turn around time. If we can keep Nasa out of it it could happen.:rolleyes:
 
I agree, However I think the approach should be figure out what to do with it once you find it. If you find it first then thats OK but if you have no plan on dealing with it then its pointless.
 
jane doe said:
I wouldn't say they have a better system to do it. We have forty years of proven technology in ours. They are starting from scratch. They may (and I believe they will) end up with a very good system but I do not thank they will be able to do it as rapidly as they think.

They're not starting from scratch. They're buying Russian parts, using Russian technology. The same tech that we rely on to supply the ISS regularly. The same tech that has a FAR better track record than the Space Shuttle. They have had the opportunity to learn from our past and ongoing mistakes.

They don't have a better system, but they have a better will to get it done.

And they won't let failures set them back. People are more disposable in their culture. This is about their nation, not about their astronauts.
 
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