Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

Daniva

macrumors member
Original poster
Sep 7, 2013
68
21
Italy
2h6hrok.jpg


New TV with Siri Remote, capacity 32/64GB, ports HDMI - USB-C - 10/100 Ethernet, A8 processor, HD 1080p, price $149 32GB or $199 64GB

New Amazon Fire TV with Alexa Voice Remote, capacity 8GB expandable up to 128GB, ports HDMI - 10/100 Ethernet - microSD slot - USB, MediaTek Quad-core processor, 4K UHD 2160p, price $99.99 or $139.99 Gaming Edition
 
Gonna get both, as will sell current Apple TV and Fire TV
Going on a ledge here but I give them credit on the gaming edition...Apple should have taken a profit hit and included a controller with each version therefore controller support would be a higher priority across the board.

Having said that I believe Apple's user experience and software will make it the winner however to people standing in a store never not knowing how well Apple's stuff tends to work I see Amazon winning those people over because "Hey it's got a controller and hey it can do 4K and has upgradeable memory".

No 4K is going to sting and affect sales I think simply because of Vizio and other TV price wars this holiday. I've got a 70 inch 4K for under 2k and this holiday it won't be unheard of to find 4K at 45 inches for under a grand.

At the least the Apple TV could have been 4K "ready" for when netfilx app is updated for Apple TV as they have 4K and that would help until iTunes offers 4K but looks like we're going to have to wait until iTunes is 4K ready unless they've sneaked some kind of 4K streaming ability into the tv they haven't announced yet.
 
I agree that the gaming edition Fire TV is a great idea. I was sure my next device would be the Apple TV, but the Fire TV is awfully tempting.
 
I am glad that Fire TV is making leaps and bounds forward as it forces Apple to stop leading from behind in this market. Let's also add the NVidia Shield TV which is the mirror of ATV with respect to access to the Android world and lots of games. The NVidia costs a touch more but offers a hell of a lot more options. I still think the ATV is a marvelous "front end" for the iTunes buy/rentals.

My hope is that everyone benefits from the choices of better "set top boxes" like the new ATV, Fire TV, NVidia Shield TV and more. Monopolies suck - especially if they are Apple or Microsoft.
 
Competition sucks. Companies spend more time copying features or defending ones as well as edging ahead of competitors instead of spending more time innovating.

Case and point video calling was around back around the 1970's all thanks to the monopolistic MaBell. They had hundreds of IP's and tech that could've been brought to the market sooner if the government had at broken them up.

Another example is cable providers and "franchises" which were meant to prevent monopolies and have severely hurt the state of broadband in the US while places like Singapore has 1Gbps internet. Really? The US invented the Internet and we are so far behind.

Cell phone companies are yet another example. Prices are higher because of costs associated with competing. Costs such as marketing, trying new tech that may or may not be supported by others, etc.. If we had one or two mobile providers with gov oversight on pricing they could expand quicker advertise less and get back to innovating as well.

Tech companies are also a huge pain as they are currently. Look at it like the console market. Apps like games have to be made for each platform. For an app to truly shine it needs to be native typically to make the most use out of each platform. Instead many developers use hybrid dev platforms that will spit out code for each platform as a one size fits most. This hurts the end user as it doesn't take full advantage of native API's. Look at gaming on consoles:sometimes a game will work flawlessly on PS4 but horribly on XBOX. Sometimes one platform gets an update weeks before the other. Sometimes a platform doesn't even get a game and etc...

Oh and that's not even touching on incompatible technologies. Your console controller may or may not work with another platform. Your Bluetooth headset may or may not work with a console. Your phone may or may not work with this device or that service.

Competition sucks. Everyone spends too much time looking over their back and defending or copying and less time innovating. Prices are higher than ever due to competition and marketing (and R&D) all to get back old customers or win new ones.

Competition and old patent laws and greed is why I have to choose a console if I want hardcore gaming and hope every game I want comes to that console and received the support it deserves.

Competition is why for over 20 years our phones didn't work well with our other devices or gadgets.

Competition is why prices are higher than ever.

I could have googled anti competition articles and posted as there are some truly in depth articles explaining the true cost of competition but for a forum post this may suffice.

What competition has brought us is some new underlying tech however I'd even debate that per my video calling reference from the 70's companies were truly innovating when there was no other distractions. Prices were cheaper (if all of America was under one company they'd have funding for practically everything).

Also I look at what some local governments have done by becoming their own ISP. In a list of places they offer 1Gps service for under $100 all because they took things into their own hands and put the majority of the MRC back into the network.

Sorry for long winded article. Just google articles explaining why competition has hurt us, especially in tech. Also every time u hear about a patent infringement or troll law suit that's competition.

And lastly I do pull for Apple. As someone who took computer science and did so with all Microsoft computers and tech I've actually come to look at Apple as being way more forward thinking and in a way more open then the first major dominant tech company and in hind sight Microsoft and even google wouldn't be what they are today without apple's innovations.
 
I'd been waiting for the new ATV for a while and I'm pretty underwhelmed by the update to be honest. Not too put off by the lack of 4K support (this could become a problem in 18-24 months though), but both the higher price (making an assumption here but I'm expecting at least £139 for the 32GB model) and the lack of a BBC iPlayer app in the UK make it really hard to choose the ATV over the new Fire TV.
 
  • Like
Reactions: phrehdd
Competition sucks. Companies spend more time copying features or defending ones as well as edging ahead of competitors instead of spending more time innovating.

So what exactly drives innovation? Pure love of inventing? I don't think that is the case for the most part.
Case and point video calling was around back around the 1970's all thanks to the monopolistic MaBell. They had hundreds of IP's and tech that could've been brought to the market sooner if the government had at broken them up.
Specious argument. Video calling requires two items: vehicle of communications and then the end point devices. Controlling both didn't guarantee anything of quality. You may recall typical modems back when were said to never be able to get beyond a certain "speed" yet, competition by makers started getting us into both proprietary compression schemes and also pushing new ansi standards.

Another example is cable providers and "franchises" which were meant to prevent monopolies and have severely hurt the state of broadband in the US while places like Singapore has 1Gbps internet. Really? The US invented the Internet and we are so far behind.

Two topics here and neither fully addressed. Cable franchises are in nature monopolies as only one cable provider per a "zone" and thus cable as a vehicle is a monopoly in that area. You rarely see areas where more than one cable provider exists. In turn, cable providers didn't have to compete and could set whatever price they wanted. Only when other vehicles entered the mix, then prices became a bit more flexible (satellite dishes etc.). As for Singapore, I am happy for their services but it doesn't suggest OUR government would be a good source to offer it. After all, our government on any large scale project not only takes longer, does it rather mediocre but massive cost over runs that we as tax payers pay. What government might do is pass FFC rulings and more as to minimum quality of service but nothing more. BTW, would you really trust the gov't to run a data sensitive service given their record of abuse of personal info?

Cell phone companies are yet another example. Prices are higher because of costs associated with competing. Costs such as marketing, trying new tech that may or may not be supported by others, etc.. If we had one or two mobile providers with gov oversight on pricing they could expand quicker advertise less and get back to innovating as well.

Don't agree. Costs are associate with putting up "points" (towers etc.) for access. Where the gov't might have intervened is calling for a safety and minimal quality ISO or ANSI standard. Not all transceivers were created equal. Government oversight in pricing does have its place if monopolistic practices are occurring. It gets complicated when there are multiple providers on what the function of gov't intervention should be. I'll refer to my comments above.

Tech companies are also a huge pain as they are currently. Look at it like the console market. Apps like games have to be made for each platform. For an app to truly shine it needs to be native typically to make the most use out of each platform. Instead many developers use hybrid dev platforms that will spit out code for each platform as a one size fits most. This hurts the end user as it doesn't take full advantage of native API's. Look at gaming on consoles:sometimes a game will work flawlessly on PS4 but horribly on XBOX. Sometimes one platform gets an update weeks before the other. Sometimes a platform doesn't even get a game and etc...

Very peculiar myopic line of reasoning here. I'll just start with games. Who makes the games and are all games equal on requirements. Answer as we both know is NO. Then again I should also mention that there are competition among game makers. I guess you don't want that either. You know, the same competition that has driven prices down and quality has gone up. As you pointed out, games are ideal on player that engage the native requirements of the game. If a great game required something outside of a single console offering you are screwed. I guess for each new game (with your monopoly oriented thinking) we would have to buy a brand new console to make it work. I rather have a mild hit on the quality so it does play on the console I have. As for programming, thank monopolistic Microsoft for not only ramming top-down structure but creating bloatware by inefficient use of compilers and then some (topic for another thread). We can agree that cross-platform compiling isn't always a good thing nor hybrid as you call it software. You can thank the game making companies for that as well. If there was only one maker of consoles, again we would see longer times between "innovation" because the money model is suck up as much money until no more then do it all over again with a newer model.

Oh and that's not even touching on incompatible technologies. Your console controller may or may not work with another platform. Your Bluetooth headset may or may not work with a console. Your phone may or may not work with this device or that service.

But wait - you mentioned a game should run natively. What if the console you have runs your game superbly but is insufficient for a new "innovation" of technology behind another game? Your argument falls way short here. The reality is that not all games are the same or their "native" requirements. Because gaming is not a "needed" service (like phone communications), there are no standards other than what certain orgs the makers belong to agree upon. Perhaps you should start a campaign to create some standards (seriously).

Competition sucks. Everyone spends too much time looking over their back and defending or copying and less time innovating. Prices are higher than ever due to competition and marketing (and R&D) all to get back old customers or win new ones.

I can't find any proof that innovation is the mere product of someone wanting to be innovative. Often there is more involved. If there was no competition, could you prove that innovation would happen and at a pace that is of value. - Answer: no. Innovation isn't always there for creative minds to express themselves.


Competition and old patent laws and greed is why I have to choose a console if I want hardcore gaming and hope every game I want comes to that console and received the support it deserves.

Competition is why for over 20 years our phones didn't work well with our other devices or gadgets.

Competition is why prices are higher than ever.

We can agree that there is room for improvement with respect to limiting the dollars a gamer has to spend to play all the games he/she wants to play. However, monopolistic or non-competitive models of economy doesn't guarantee any improvement and most likely the opposite.

1) Competition created a variety of options and choices for the consumer. It also created as a by product some schisms where some products didn't play well with others. This is more a challenge of agreed standards. We see that Apple uses OSX and Microsoft uses Windows and separate file systems. Should they both be forced to switch to just one OS and one file system? Btw, the gov't intruded in enough to stop Microsoft from giving away hardware and software to the general public to stop them from wiping Apple out entirely. In fact, MS gave Apple money and bought Apple stock. That is corporate business at its best and worst.

2) The entire topic of phone service and cell phone service is far more complicated than you might think. What devices and gadgets are you speaking about and what was the real failure point for them with phones?

3) Competition doesn't drive prices higher. Certain "services" might be forced to use standards as related to safety or minimum quality. If you look at the price of a cell phone, it is, for the cost of developing the technology a real steal. Competition between makers has kept the prices down not up. Both Playstation and XBox are positioned price-wise by market (how much are people willing to spend) and those devices are front ends to services that both makers charge for at some level for profit. You cannot find any proof that competition has made prices escalate. Each new game requires some sort of resources that often translates to changes in hardware. Most people know that technology is usually way ahead of software. S

So in short, go back to your game makers and make them all one company. Make them come out with a standard. - Even if the standard turns out to hamstring a developer/innovator with newer ways to create code and programs. After all, everything you said is about games and your desire to knock out competition should start at the source - game makers.


I could have googled anti competition articles and posted as there are some truly in depth articles explaining the true cost of competition but for a forum post this may suffice.

What competition has brought us is some new underlying tech however I'd even debate that per my video calling reference from the 70's companies were truly innovating when there was no other distractions. Prices were cheaper (if all of America was under one company they'd have funding for practically everything).

Also I look at what some local governments have done by becoming their own ISP. In a list of places they offer 1Gps service for under $100 all because they took things into their own hands and put the majority of the MRC back into the network.

Sorry for long winded article. Just google articles explaining why competition has hurt us, especially in tech. Also every time u hear about a patent infringement or troll law suit that's competition.

And lastly I do pull for Apple. As someone who took computer science and did so with all Microsoft computers and tech I've actually come to look at Apple as being way more forward thinking and in a way more open then the first major dominant tech company and in hind sight Microsoft and even google wouldn't be what they are today without apple's innovations.

Apple's innovations? Apple has very few innovations but rather, improved upon a theme to a point where it was extremely user friendly. Perhaps the "user friendly" is what you refer to as innovative?

PDA with cell phone technology existed before iPhone.
Tablet like devices existed before iPad.
We know Walkmans or portable media players existed before iPod
The list goes on. I'll just say Apple did its version of these types of things and did it extremely well.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2010mini
I'd been waiting for the new ATV for a while and I'm pretty underwhelmed by the update to be honest. Not too put off by the lack of 4K support (this could become a problem in 18-24 months though), but both the higher price (making an assumption here but I'm expecting at least £139 for the 32GB model) and the lack of a BBC iPlayer app in the UK make it really hard to choose the ATV over the new Fire TV.

What makes you think there won't be a BBC iPlayer app?
 
What makes you think there won't be a BBC iPlayer app?


Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Regardless of any current stance the BBC may have, it'll change.
The simplicity of porting their existing code coupled with the likely user demand will probably assure an iPlayer app somewhere down the line.
 
Yeah, I'm inclined to agree. Regardless of any current stance the BBC may have, it'll change.
The simplicity of porting their existing code coupled with the likely user demand will probably assure an iPlayer app somewhere down the line.

The demand has been there for years but for whatever reason it's still not on the cards. Rather poor from a predominantly taxpayer funded public service broadcaster, for whom widespread provision of their services should be an absolute priority!
 
Am I correct in thinking you can access your iTunes content in other countries with your ATV? But if you take your Fire TV abroad, you cannot access your purchase and rentals, even if it is set to "Original Country" which in my case is UK.
I know when I take my ATV to Asia, I have no problems watching my UK purchased content. I just find the following statement from Amazon, (marked in bold) a little confusing.


You can take your Amazon Fire TV device with you if you are moving or travelling to certain countries outside of the UK. Your Amazon Fire TV device will work in the following countries:

  • United States
  • United Kingdom (UK)
  • Germany
  • Austria (Fire TV Stick only)
In order to use your device outside of the UK, you need to change the Country Settings for your Amazon account.


Important:
  • When you change the country for your Amazon account, you will no longer be able to access any of your purchased or rented videos from Amazon Instant Video. Your purchased videos will still be available in the original country if you change back to that country, but any rented videos will be unavailable.
If not, then that is another plus for ATV.
 
Am I correct in thinking you can access your iTunes content in other countries with your ATV? But if you take your Fire TV abroad, you cannot access your purchase and rentals, even if it is set to "Original Country" which in my case is UK.
I know when I take my ATV to Asia, I have no problems watching my UK purchased content. I just find the following statement from Amazon, (marked in bold) a little confusing.


You can take your Amazon Fire TV device with you if you are moving or travelling to certain countries outside of the UK. Your Amazon Fire TV device will work in the following countries:

  • United States
  • United Kingdom (UK)
  • Germany
  • Austria (Fire TV Stick only)
In order to use your device outside of the UK, you need to change the Country Settings for your Amazon account.


Important:
  • When you change the country for your Amazon account, you will no longer be able to access any of your purchased or rented videos from Amazon Instant Video. Your purchased videos will still be available in the original country if you change back to that country, but any rented videos will be unavailable.
If not, then that is another plus for ATV.

That sucks for Amazon users.
 
if ATV was 4k, no brainer since I want to view 4k on my $15k Sony projector...since it's not, I ordered the Fire.
 
The demand has been there for years but for whatever reason it's still not on the cards. Rather poor from a predominantly taxpayer funded public service broadcaster, for whom widespread provision of their services should be an absolute priority!

I agree with the sentiment that as we pay for the BBC to even exist, we should be allowed access to its content anywhere there is demand for it, ideally anyway.

But as far as the ATV goes I've never expected them to have iPlayer or any kind of alternative on the closed system that existed until now. But with the addition of an AppStore on the new ATV I think it's something that will happen sooner rather than later.
 
I agree with the sentiment that as we pay for the BBC to even exist, we should be allowed access to its content anywhere there is demand for it, ideally anyway.

But as far as the ATV goes I've never expected them to have iPlayer or any kind of alternative on the closed system that existed until now. But with the addition of an AppStore on the new ATV I think it's something that will happen sooner rather than later.

I am still waiting for a BBC USA app
 
Y'know it's silly but I often forget that the BBC has channels in other countries as well.
Is there not any kind of iPlayer style, on demand service for the BBC in the USA?

Nope. Their website doesn't even allow you to watch shows with authentication like others here do.
Sux.
 
The demand has been there for years but for whatever reason it's still not on the cards. Rather poor from a predominantly taxpayer funded public service broadcaster, for whom widespread provision of their services should be an absolute priority!

It's precisely because it is funded by the UK TV licence fee (not the UK taxpayer), that it is not permitted to view BBC content outside the UK. Something to do with the licensing laws. The BBC is aware of the demand, and there was talk of providing a paid for iPlayer service, or providing a way for people to access iPlayer when they go abroad, but I don't know if that has progressed.

For now, I just get by using a VPN or Unblock.us and Airplay to my ATV.
 
I would have thought that with BBC America collaborating with auntie and independently making material that there would at least be access to that over the pond.
I'd be happy that someone was getting use out of a licence fee I'm forced to pay every year for channels I very rarely watch :D
 
The demand has been there for years but for whatever reason it's still not on the cards. Rather poor from a predominantly taxpayer funded public service broadcaster, for whom widespread provision of their services should be an absolute priority!

I'm not sure if the lack of iPlayer on the ATV is the BBC's fault - more like Apple can't monetise the content so it the opportunity was never offered to them.
 
Competition sucks. Companies spend more time copying features or defending ones as well as edging ahead of competitors instead of spending more time innovating.

Case and point video calling was around back around the 1970's all thanks to the monopolistic MaBell. They had hundreds of IP's and tech that could've been brought to the market sooner if the government had at broken them up.

Another example is cable providers and "franchises" which were meant to prevent monopolies and have severely hurt the state of broadband in the US while places like Singapore has 1Gbps internet. Really? The US invented the Internet and we are so far behind.

Cell phone companies are yet another example. Prices are higher because of costs associated with competing. Costs such as marketing, trying new tech that may or may not be supported by others, etc.. If we had one or two mobile providers with gov oversight on pricing they could expand quicker advertise less and get back to innovating as well.

Tech companies are also a huge pain as they are currently. Look at it like the console market. Apps like games have to be made for each platform. For an app to truly shine it needs to be native typically to make the most use out of each platform. Instead many developers use hybrid dev platforms that will spit out code for each platform as a one size fits most. This hurts the end user as it doesn't take full advantage of native API's. Look at gaming on consoles:sometimes a game will work flawlessly on PS4 but horribly on XBOX. Sometimes one platform gets an update weeks before the other. Sometimes a platform doesn't even get a game and etc...

Oh and that's not even touching on incompatible technologies. Your console controller may or may not work with another platform. Your Bluetooth headset may or may not work with a console. Your phone may or may not work with this device or that service.

Competition sucks. Everyone spends too much time looking over their back and defending or copying and less time innovating. Prices are higher than ever due to competition and marketing (and R&D) all to get back old customers or win new ones.

Competition and old patent laws and greed is why I have to choose a console if I want hardcore gaming and hope every game I want comes to that console and received the support it deserves.

Competition is why for over 20 years our phones didn't work well with our other devices or gadgets.

Competition is why prices are higher than ever.

I could have googled anti competition articles and posted as there are some truly in depth articles explaining the true cost of competition but for a forum post this may suffice.

What competition has brought us is some new underlying tech however I'd even debate that per my video calling reference from the 70's companies were truly innovating when there was no other distractions. Prices were cheaper (if all of America was under one company they'd have funding for practically everything).

Also I look at what some local governments have done by becoming their own ISP. In a list of places they offer 1Gps service for under $100 all because they took things into their own hands and put the majority of the MRC back into the network.

Sorry for long winded article. Just google articles explaining why competition has hurt us, especially in tech. Also every time u hear about a patent infringement or troll law suit that's competition.

And lastly I do pull for Apple. As someone who took computer science and did so with all Microsoft computers and tech I've actually come to look at Apple as being way more forward thinking and in a way more open then the first major dominant tech company and in hind sight Microsoft and even google wouldn't be what they are today without apple's innovations.

This argument only makes sense if the one or two companies allowed to exist in this hypothetical scenario care about their customers. If they don't, and their motive is profit, then what is their incentive to treat customers well?

Oh, you don't like that our cars cost the equivalent of four years of your salary? Too bad! You can't buy one from anyone else. Oh, you don't like that they only get 6 miles to the gallon, and gas costs $12 a gallon? Too bad!

You say the government could provide oversight for consumer protections. What is the first thing a megacorp is going to do? Buy the politicians. Put them right in their pockets. Done.

The reason we have such abysmal services for internet and mobile phones in the US is because we don't have enough competition. We have these semi-monopolies that have no true competition. If you want broadband internet service in the US, chances are there's only one provider in your area. Zero competition. You might be able to find some smaller companies that offer much slower speeds. For cell phones, there are four carriers, two of which have major blank spots in their coverage maps. That effectively leads to two companies getting the bulk of the business. And surprise! Those two companies treat their customers terribly.

On top of it, now everyone is working for the same small pool of companies. You think the way these companies treat their customers is bad? Try being one of their employees. The bigger the company is, the less it's going to care. Period.

Competition is the only force that can really overturn this. If we had real competition, where dozens of companies were offering you cell service, you'd see real innovation. You'd see better pricing. You'd see all the things that you think you'd get by eliminating competition. The problem here is that we don't have enough competition.

Remember, Apple started in a garage. In your scenario, that wouldn't even be allowed to exist.
 
  • Like
Reactions: pittpanthersfan
Wrong. BBC actually said they made the decision not to.

So if the BBC refused, where are the Channel 4/5 and ITV players then? Personally I've seen what you are referring to and to be honest it doesn't really come across as entirely true. Why not develop for Apple TV when they produced iplayer for a number of much smaller selling devices. Still we'll wait and see what they do with the new app store.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.