New York Attorney General Asks Apple and Google to Vet Third-Party Contact Tracing Apps

[Websnapx2]

There is no trust issue? Which world are you living in? The negativity shown to the public is one of the contributor. How many security breach we hear last year alone? Not every one are technically inclined to go ahead and read through pages and pages of the release notes.

With all due respect, you are being incredibly vague. What security breaches involved Apple? I mean actually involved user data leaking from Apple — not an app on an Apple device? You don't need to go through pages and pages of information however if you are concerned, one web page is not much to ask if you are honest about your concerns. If I have concerns about a particular topic I don't know much about, I still look into it rather than parrot other people's fears.

In regards to forcing the update, that is like someone coming into your home to change the inside of it even though you own the home. I own the damn HW and I paid for the network usage, Apple should not be allowed to force the data through something I have to pay for. Yes, I know the SW agreement says they can do that, but that is beyond ethical and unreasonable.
What is next? Every one have to read through a 20 pager just to go buy an orange at the grocery store?

No, it's not — not at all. Apple isn't changing your wallpaper, deleting apps, or changing your settings. This is like owning a condo and they regularly upgrade the security and building amenities. Yes, you own the hardware but it is not siloed from the rest of the ecosystem. Also, you can turn off automatic updates. You are being extremely hyperbolic on this.

 

[B4U]

Let's not derail the thread that much further.
I am merely presenting the voices of why some people may think that way. If all of us are equal, we are all robots.
So, when some of the folks that I personally know who are not tech savvy and have those concerns, I hear their voices and opinion as well. These folks heard there is a data leak on the celebrity whoever and freak out. Well, those of us who read through it knows it is because said celebrity was phished.
This is what makes our society great because everyone can have their own thoughts.

On the other hand, Apple is not deleting apps, but they have rendered 32 bit apps unusable in newer iOS, didn't they?
They have also changed the control center's WiFi and Bluetooth as temporary disable instead of turning it off completely.
Yes, we can turn off automatic updates, but said update is still downloaded against our will. It just does not install on its own, but nag the crap out of us to install it.

 

[Websnapx2]

Let's not derail the thread that much further.

Riiiiight

I am merely presenting the voices of why some people may think that way. If all of us are equal, we are all robots.
So, when some of the folks that I personally know who are not tech savvy and have those concerns, I hear their voices and opinion as well. These folks heard there is a data leak on the celebrity whoever and freak out. Well, those of us who read through it knows it is because said celebrity was phished.
This is what makes our society great because everyone can have their own thoughts.

No, you aren't. I mean, you can't think you are the only one here that has non-tech savy friends and family that only know what they hear from the news and people like us, ones they know and trust on the topic, to flesh out the truth about these types of topics. I know well of who you are talking about because we all talk to them too. If they really didn't trust apple they wouldn't have an iPhone when an android device is so much cheaper, especially because they would have expected you to have told them they are insecure devices. The celebrity data leak was so long ago (over 6 years now) no one is thinking about that at all. The only ones really concerned about it are the ones who's tech sherpa (us) who know better, but still reinforce that mistrust even when we have read the "tech stuff" and understand the technology. Saying other people don't know is a cop-out for a conversation here where we know the context of what the media skims past, and are presented with the info to know what we're talking about.

This is what makes our society great because everyone can have their own thoughts.

Everyone is allowed to have their own thoughts and opinions, but that is not what makes our society great — what makes it great is that people are able to have free access to information so that any person can have an informed opinion, hopefully, paired with the hubris to modify the opinion when presented with new facts and information.

Everyone is allowed to have an objective opinion, but a subjective one not based on facts doesn't get a pass when countered with new empirical evidence. Apple trades on security — as you have to go back 6 years to find an example of a breach that wasn't even Apple's fault — and they STILL further locked the system in spite of their only weakness being the user — I would hope you would agree, as that is not subjective.

On the other hand, Apple is not deleting apps, but they have rendered 32 bit apps unusable in newer iOS, didn't they?
They have also changed the control center's WiFi and Bluetooth as temporary disable instead of turning it off completely.

I don't see the issue of removing 32-bit apps. Looking beyond the obvious benefits of 64-Bit apps on 64-bit hardware, most 32-bit apps are programs that haven't been updated in a long time and not only may they be improperly optimized, but they could also be security liabilities. If they are important, you can not upgrade your computer (and it won't even force you to get on the next version).

System functionality changes from version to version if enough people prefer something different (volume up for Camera shutter) or a better way comes up — that's what Apple did they changed something to what they thought was better — and I (subjectively) agree. The Wifi Bluetooth behaviour is by design — if you really want it off you just go into settings — but it seems obvious to me that Control Center is a quick, temporary adjustment (like if I wanted the screen dark real quick, but still don't want to turn off Auto-Brightness) and if I want something off for good I'll go into the actual Settings app. You may not instinctually think that but when you know — you know. It's not them just changing something, versions are meant to improve.

Yes, we can turn off automatic updates, but said update is still downloaded against our will. It just does not install on its own, but nag the crap out of us to install it.

You can turn off notifications if you are adamantly against being "nagged", but I don't understand the issue — you are choosing to be in Apple's ecosystem owning an iPhone (doubly so if you are as interested in the tech side enough to be posting here). If you don't like what they are doing in seemingly every aspect to the point you want to freeze the OS version and risk being behind on security updates, you may want to rethink iOS. You own the phone but you do not own the path the OS takes going forward — you just have the right to jump off the train.

Look, I'm not trying to come off as hostile — I just don't understand when people are presented with information, are interested enough to read the information to some degree and even want to converse with others who ALSO are interested enough to read the info, but still want to be contrarian to the information. Personal opinion is one thing — preferences, likes and dislikes are all totally fair — however when something is actually empirically documented (something objective like hashing information on the device, mapped out communication paths directly indicating that information doesn't leave the device) you can say you don't trust it, but you cannot pretend the concerns weren't addressed, regardless of the method of implementation. Having the update (without a third-party app registered) does not track you in any way anyone can utilize — especially without the actual device. This is an objective truth — not my personal opinion.

 

[ian87w]

Apple should have never gotten into this absolute BS.

Now they have to live with it.

Actually what Apple needs to do is to allow alternative app stores. Remove stupid tracking hooks from iOS - idiots who want to contact trace everyone can then install apps that do it, and normal people can then ignore it.

Since when was Apple a company that tracks and traces its customers anyway? They spent decades building up a reputation for privacy just to throw it all away over the flu? 🤦‍♂️

Apple and Google made proper the APIs for contact tracing while still protects privacy.

An alternative app store is even worse as now you are allowing developers with no checks to make apps for the platform. Let me know a developer who has better privacy concern than Apple.

 

[calzon65]

That's ridiculous — those updates include system fixes and security updates. if you don't do them you will complain about how buggy and insecure the OS is... what a horrible complaint to lob out there they are too on top of fixes.

Ridiculous you say ... I am well aware of what an update may or may not include as I actually read the release notes before accepting an update. Maybe you simply accept every update Apple pushes your way.

What is ridiculous is not considering any legitimate rational to decline an update. What is ridiculous is the acquiescence to relentless update notifications from the master (Apple). What is ridiculous is Apple's overly aggressive update notifications even after a user has taken a proactive decision to decline the update. What is ridiculous is ... I've said my peace; thank you for a ridiculous reply

 

[Websnapx2]

Ridiculous you say ... I am well aware of what an update may or may not include as I actually read the release notes before accepting an update. Maybe you simply accept every update Apple pushes your way.

What is ridiculous is not considering any legitimate rational to decline an update. What is ridiculous is the acquiescence to relentless update notifications from the master (Apple). What is ridiculous is Apple's overly aggressive update notifications even after a user has taken a proactive decision to decline the update. What is ridiculous is ... I've said my peace; thank you for a ridiculous reply

That's how technology works. A company chooses the direction they want to take their products and for those who like it, they buy-in and if not, they go to a competitor more in line with their priorities. Regardless of whether I would want to accept a future feature or not — I'm going to update — for the simple fact that they contain security updates and the company will not warranty issues if I'm not up to date (barring physical damage). But even with some of my older devices, the fact is updates, even small ones, have actually made the devices faster in recent iterations — regardless of whether I agreed with the release notes or not there is no future path without it. Here is the thing though — If something fundamental to the os (like the underpinnings of a contact tracing API, pulling 32-Bit applications, or the level of control of your update version) made me go to the lengths of not wanting to stay up to date with speed enhancements, additional functionality, and extremely tight security, then I would patron an os that is more in line with my expectations. Don't get me wrong, I have not agreed with all of Apple's decisions, nor do I love all the features they have implemented — but none of them have made me want to not update and risk vulnerabilities and apps not functioning correctly.

All of this because you believe that a phone you have been carrying in your pocket this whole time is (because of an update) going to allow you to be tracked, when the ability for it to track you has been within your device's capability the entire time you have owned it had they actually wanted to. Having a concern for this feature to the point of not updating a device (one that you willingly chose to purchase for a lot of money), from a company you are not willing to trust is just... 🤯 Looking for a reason to be upset, regardless of the information presented, but just because... is... weird, man.

Android is calling you — they love not giving you updates.

Cheers.

 

[konqerror]

Android is calling you — they love not giving you updates.

Android has mandatory, silent updates via Google Play Services. This allows new features, APIs, and security fixes to be deployed independent of the core OS.

As a perfect example, Apple requires an update to iOS 13.5 to get their contact tracing API, whereas Android devices with at least Android 6.0 Marshmallow (released fall 2015) received the Google version.

If you translated this to Apple, this would mean phones back to the iPhone 4S would be updated with the new API, rather than the iPhone 6S minimum we have now.

 

[Websnapx2]

Android has mandatory, silent updates via Google Play Services. This allows new features, APIs, and security fixes to be deployed independent of the core OS.

As a perfect example, Apple requires an update to iOS 13.5 to get their contact tracing API, whereas Android devices with at least Android 6.0 Marshmallow (released fall 2015) received the Google version.

If you translated this to Apple, this would mean phones back to the iPhone 4S would be updated with the new API, rather than the iPhone 6S minimum we have now.

I stand corrected — I didn't know that —thanks for that info. I have a Huawei tablet I got less than a year ago and it is stuck on Android 8.0 (the original OS) and has never had more than a few patches here and there — never an actual full update that adds functionality or services so I guessed all were like that.

 

[calzon65]

That's how technology works. A company chooses the direction they want to take their products and for those who like it, they buy-in and if not, they go to a competitor more in line with their priorities. Regardless of whether I would want to accept a future feature or not — I'm going to update — for the simple fact that they contain security updates and the company will not warranty issues if I'm not up to date (barring physical damage). But even with some of my older devices, the fact is updates, even small ones, have actually made the devices faster in recent iterations — regardless of whether I agreed with the release notes or not there is no future path without it. Here is the thing though — If something fundamental to the os (like the underpinnings of a contact tracing API, pulling 32-Bit applications, or the level of control of your update version) made me go to the lengths of not wanting to stay up to date with speed enhancements, additional functionality, and extremely tight security, then I would patron an os that is more in line with my expectations. Don't get me wrong, I have not agreed with all of Apple's decisions, nor do I love all the features they have implemented — but none of them have made me want to not update and risk vulnerabilities and apps not functioning correctly.

All of this because you believe that a phone you have been carrying in your pocket this whole time is (because of an update) going to allow you to be tracked, when the ability for it to track you has been within your device's capability the entire time you have owned it had they actually wanted to. Having a concern for this feature to the point of not updating a device (one that you willingly chose to purchase for a lot of money), from a company you are not willing to trust is just... 🤯 Looking for a reason to be upset, regardless of the information presented, but just because... is... weird, man.

Android is calling you — they love not giving you updates.

Cheers.

I never said a single word about "being tracked", so stop projecting your own conspiracy rooted delusions on me by putting words in my mouth. My only comments related specifically to IOS updates and Apple's aggressive update notification methodology even after a users specifically chooses to not accept an update.

It's painfully obvious you have absolutely no aptitude to comprehend any legitimate reason for skipping an IOS update, so let me spell out a real-world example from 2018 that hopefully even you can understand.

Two years ago, there was a mid-cycle release of IOS that broke the Bluetooth connection between the iPhone and some models of BMW (there were some other auto manufacturers affected, but I only remember the BMW issue). BMW warned iPhone users to avoid the update until Apple resolved the problem that they introduced in the IOS update. Users like myself, unlike you who blindly accepts every Apple update shoved under their nose, skipped the current update and waited for a subsequent IOS release. Eventually, Apple released another update (almost 8 weeks later) that eventually resolved their Bluetooth problem.

Under your idiotic approach of accepting ALL updates without question, I would have not been able to Bluetooth connect my iPhone to my car for almost two months. By waiting, I was able to legally use my iPhone in my car with the Bluetooth hands free option until Apple released a fix.

I realize you are going to try come up with some lame excuse to discredit this real world event from 2018 that negatively impacted thousands of users, but changing your mind is a lost cause. I suggest you continue to mindlessly accept every update Apple pushes to you. Good luck with that head-in-the-sand Ostridge approach, it has obviously served you well.

 

[Tech198]

That is the great thing about the API, the hashes are completely worthless to keep and stored only on your phone. I do not support a centralized app that does not use the Apple/Google API.

The problem is only a few states are actually using the API, most are using draconian tracking and identity information. On top of that, even if I did use my states app (which I will not unless they use the API) it is worthless if I travel. I will get no notification if I drive across State lines or someone else drives through using a contact tracing app.

trusting or not trusting API's is the question.. Me ? I'd rather just think for myself first if i wanna be part of it

 

[Websnapx2]

I never said a single word about "being tracked", so stop projecting your own conspiracy rooted delusions on me by putting words in my mouth. My only comments related specifically to IOS updates and Apple's aggressive update notification methodology even after a users specifically chooses to not accept an update.

Maybe understand the context of a conversation before chiming in — if you took a look at the topic at hand then you would see the reason for the perspective people are taking, rather than expanding points beyond context. Had you done so you'd see I was not at all giving into any conspiracy delusions, I was addressing someone who did and you interjected.

It's painfully obvious you have absolutely no aptitude to comprehend any legitimate reason for skipping an IOS update, so let me spell out a real-world example from 2018 that hopefully even you can understand.

I understand it very well — you, again, seem to miss the crux of the point — it's the context of this topic which is in relation to the addition of the contract tracing API in an update. Naturally, there are legitimate reasons for holding off an update (and you can always do so) — but the notifications are just something you'll have to deal with until the fix to your problem comes out (it isn't intended to be a long wait but sometimes it's out of their control). I remember that Bluetooth issue. Must have sucked, but you can always downgrade back to the previous version (if you have upgraded too early) as I have had to do when issues inevitably surface as — let's face it — they aren't always perfect. But go back and read my comments — they were not about delaying updates. My comments were about not wanting to update due to added features the previous user didn't want to be implemented/felt was being forced to accept. I can appreciate that's not what you are referring to but that is the conversation you stepped into.

Also, I never said I would update instantly and blindly — just inevitably — because (again, in context) that feature wasn't going anywhere, and not updating due to not trusting it to not track you 9 times out of 10 leaves you as a user at a disadvantage for a nonsensical reason due to security vulnerabilities or app/service compatibilities. Your scenario was not like that so that was not what I was referring to. You were looking to delay an update till a fix came, they were looking to not update due to mistrust. I can admit some of what I was saying doesn't apply to you but you need to understand you stepped in and continued a conversation while changing the context.

Under your idiotic approach of accepting ALL updates without question, I would have not been able to Bluetooth connect my iPhone to my car for almost two months. By waiting, I was able to legally use my iPhone in my car with the Bluetooth hands free option until Apple released a fix.

Exactly what I mention above, bugs suck and waiting for a fix is natural. Generally, Apple is really good at squashing those bugs but patience is needed for the occasional rare ones that are hard to squash. I at no point said to update even if you know it contains a bug — it's why I come to sites like this — to see what changes are made, what bugs have been addressed and if anyone has noticed new ones. It's what you do if you know or are interested in tech.

I realize you are going to try come up with some lame excuse to discredit this real world event from 2018 that negatively impacted thousands of users, but changing your mind is a lost cause. I suggest you continue to mindlessly accept every update Apple pushes to you. Good luck with that head-in-the-sand Ostridge approach, it has obviously served you well.

There is no reason to discredit anything you said — your example is not what I was referring to — not all problems require ubiquitous solutions as the scenario you brought up was not the scenario I was addressing. It's common sense not to perform an update you know will break something you rely on — it's not the same as the user who mistrusted a new feature and was trying to freeze their device at a version. That is fighting the inevitable tide of future updates and enhancements because of an uninformed mistrust. I stand by my comments within the context they were offered. if it doesn't apply to you then it wasn't for you.

Keep in mind context when jumping into conversations — conflating scenarios and speaking in generalizations while ignoring context to highlight a point that wasn't being made, that just causes confusion. Which is how we got here.

 

[Websnapx2]

trusting or not trusting API's is the question.. Me ? I'd rather just think for myself first if i wanna be part of it

If you can't trust the API — even after it has been all spelled out for you — you have to question why you are using the device in the first place. Both companies have documented the lengths they have gone to so that the user's identity is not only completely hidden but that the who's and the where's are all kept on device and never meaningfully shared. in any way that can be mined. The thing you are afraid of has been a capability for these devices for generations — this is not a magical update that installs Bluetooth, GPS or any other broadcast capabilities so if Apple or Google wanted to track you they could have (and in some cases, already have). If you want to think for yourself, at least make your opinion informed.

If you STILL don't trust that process — time to move over to PureOS or something, I mean your phone is quickly becoming our most data-sensitive device and if you don't trust the companies to actually do the thing they say they are doing, for something as clear and straight-forward as this, what are you doing? You are being controlled by a subjective opinion on something that counters your view with objective and sound information backing it up. Just never Download a third-party app utilizing the API and nothing leaves your phone — done.

 

[calzon65]

Maybe understand the context of a conversation before chiming in — if you took a look at the topic at hand then you would see the reason for the perspective people are taking, rather than expanding points beyond context. Had you done so you'd see I was not at all giving into any conspiracy delusions, I was addressing someone who did and you interjected.


I understand it very well — you, again, seem to miss the crux of the point — it's the context of this topic which is in relation to the addition of the contract tracing API in an update. Naturally, there are legitimate reasons for holding off an update (and you can always do so) — but the notifications are just something you'll have to deal with until the fix to your problem comes out (it isn't intended to be a long wait but sometimes it's out of their control). I remember that Bluetooth issue. Must have sucked, but you can always downgrade back to the previous version (if you have upgraded too early) as I have had to do when issues inevitably surface as — let's face it — they aren't always perfect. But go back and read my comments — they were not about delaying updates. My comments were about not wanting to update due to added features the previous user didn't want to be implemented/felt was being forced to accept. I can appreciate that's not what you are referring to but that is the conversation you stepped into.

Also, I never said I would update instantly and blindly — just inevitably — because (again, in context) that feature wasn't going anywhere, and not updating due to not trusting it to not track you 9 times out of 10 leaves you as a user at a disadvantage for a nonsensical reason due to security vulnerabilities or app/service compatibilities. Your scenario was not like that so that was not what I was referring to. You were looking to delay an update till a fix came, they were looking to not update due to mistrust. I can admit some of what I was saying doesn't apply to you but you need to understand you stepped in and continued a conversation while changing the context.


Exactly what I mention above, bugs suck and waiting for a fix is natural. Generally, Apple is really good at squashing those bugs but patience is needed for the occasional rare ones that are hard to squash. I at no point said to update even if you know it contains a bug — it's why I come to sites like this — to see what changes are made, what bugs have been addressed and if anyone has noticed new ones. It's what you do if you know or are interested in tech.


There is no reason to discredit anything you said — your example is not what I was referring to — not all problems require ubiquitous solutions as the scenario you brought up was not the scenario I was addressing. It's common sense not to perform an update you know will break something you rely on — it's not the same as the user who mistrusted a new feature and was trying to freeze their device at a version. That is fighting the inevitable tide of future updates and enhancements because of an uninformed mistrust. I stand by my comments within the context they were offered. if it doesn't apply to you then it wasn't for you.

Keep in mind context when jumping into conversations — conflating scenarios and speaking in generalizations while ignoring context to highlight a point that wasn't being made, that just causes confusion. Which is how we got here.

Keep telling yourself that enough times and it might become true. I have my popcorn ready for your next multi-paragraph rant ROFL. 😂

 

[Websnapx2]

Keep telling yourself that enough times and it might become true. I have my popcorn ready for your next multi-paragraph rant ROFL. 😂

Nah, I'll just wait till you have a conversation crying about update notifications so I can change the topic to camera resolutions or something else no one was talking about. You know — mirror your energy. Maybe if you read comments you would actually have something on-topic to contribute.