Got a tip for us?
Let us know
Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
New York Judge Rules U.S. Government Can't Force Apple to Unlock an iPhone
- Thread starter MacRumors
- Start date
- Sort by reaction score
gulf of tonkin incident. pearl harbor. jfk assassination. rumsfeld's missing $2.3 trillion on 9/10 and/or building 7 the next day (depending on your leanings). there are plenty of alarming things our government has pulled/is suspected of pulling.. dunno about others, but i generally assume that, just like everything else with revolving members/leaders, there are some poor/fair/good/excellent generations of people on and off throughout a timeline. just means we have to be vigilant and (hopefully) not too emphatically paranoid.
Why so lame & tired & trite, "bro"?
[doublepost=1456802429][/doublepost]
Thank you sir!
While I probably should NOT have stooped... it is comforting that a level head recognized the situation. :0)
[doublepost=1456802627][/doublepost]
Rather; it is unfortunate that Americans currently cannot have "faith" in their government...
We don't have faith in any nation's government. (Separation of church and state pun not intended) We also don't have faith in fire, that's why we have fire departments, building codes, etc. Likewise, within government, we have elections and term limits; legislative, executive, and judicial separation of powers, and checks and balances to make it safer. A safer car can have antilock brakes, airbags, seat belts, etc. and still kill you.
Wording has been changed to "used" instead of "owned." Thanks for the heads up.
Does the judge own an iPhone? Probably doesn't want the Feds getting a backdoor into his phone.
Should have recused himself if he is an iPhone owner. If the Feds appeal, that'll be their rationale.
Should have recused himself if he is an iPhone owner. If the Feds appeal, that'll be their rationale.
Precisely why we, ordinary citizens, must get involved. With lots of pressure applied by the Fed (wanting additional tools to snoop into our lives, and no doubt under the guise of making us all 'safer' by citing high profile cases such as the recent San Bernardino killings), while at the same time in an absence of vigorous citizen's opposition to such sweeping invasions of our private lives, it's a foregone conclusion that Congress will introduce and pass precisely the kind of legislation the Fed is mouthwatering over.
Case in point: the DMCA was passed into law thru a combination of tremendous and massive campaigning by Hollywood studios and content owners, and with the exception of a vigorous defence by the EFF, an at best relatively weak and minor effort by us, the consuming public at large.
If we value our privacy and freedoms, it is imperative for all of us to get involved now! The implications of the real possibility of 'backdoor legislation' are just too dreadful to contemplate.
Last edited:
So, is there ever a situation that would warrant the breaking into a device to retrieve information? Say, if there was reason to believe that a nuclear bomb was set to go off in a major American city and a locked device possibably contained information that could prevent it. This is quite extreme compared to the current case but it raises questions about when certain actions by the government are permissible for the common good.
Makes me wonder if it really needs to escalate to the Supreme Court to make those numbskulls in FBI to learn their mistakes.
Which Apple has done. You DO understand that, right? There seems to be this weird mistake going around that Apple has done nothing to help the FBI and is just refusing them flat out. But that's not the case. Everything Apple has, every trick to get info on these people, they've given it to the FBI. What the FBI wants, however, if for Apple to create a program they do NOT have in order to get access to any iPhone they want.
Imagine a maker of safes. Someone locks their info in a safe. The FBI goes to the safe maker. "Tell us all you know about this person." The safe-maker does so. Every scrap of information. Then the FBI says, "We need you to break into their safe. "We don't know how to do that," the makers say. It turns out that this is a special safe with a code that the owner gets to set. And not even the safe-maker can decode it once that is done. In short, the safe makers DO NOT KNOW that information. And can't give it to the FBI.
But the FBI says, "Well, we want you safe makers to create a special key for this thing which will bi-pass the code and let us right in." The safe makers say: "We want you to get into this one safe, but if we created such a key, you could get into any safe we've made. You could open the safes of people who haven't committed crimes. And what if this key fell into the wrong hands, and criminals used it to rob all our customers. This key you're asking for, would make our safes pointless."
And the FBI says, "We will take this go a judge and force you to do it."
Which brings up an interesting thought. If the FBI wins, couldn't coders at Apple quit and say, "We don't work for Apple." And thus, Apple no longer has anyone to do it? Can the FBI force any citizen to create something for them that they feel they need for any reason? Isn't that, um, well, slavery?
Anyway, the point, is what you're arguing is Apples and oranges. Apple has given the FBI what they know, and information that Apple has on file is NOT what the FBI is after. What they want is for Apple to create a key to give them access to any iPhone. So, all the info on your kids, finances, and health? This key, if created, would give it to anyone who owned it. FBI or otherwise. I, myself, would rather Apple didn't create it.
Last edited:
Uncanny. Finally someone bloody gets it. Now judge, please go with Apple next month to the Congressional hearing and relay all of that to the FBI. 
They want Apple to make a particular phone breakable when a warrant is issued. Not give out a global key.
Heck, many people post half that stuff online. The rest is easy to get with a warrant to your bank and by questioning doctors and neighbors.
What I don't understand is why the FBI wasn't smart enough to take a print from the deceased and make a fake finger to get past TouchID. That's half the reason Apple is handwaving so much. They're trying to distract everyone from how insecure the phone really is to anyone who has access to your prints or even you yourself.
Well, that's the other issue, isn't it? Exactly WHAT info is on this device that warrants such measures? I imagine the FBI has the laptop and other devices of these two. What is on this phone that is missing from them—from the iCloud? What is so critical? Alas, the FBI doesn't know. It could turn out that the phone has nothing more on it than baby pictures and text messages to the wife about what to buy at the grocery store. So, when you ask if there's ever a situation to warrant this, we have to ask, in turn: how would you know that it warrants it?
We've gone quite nuts over the theft of thousands of credit card numbers from a bank's lost laptop, also over medical information accessed by way of a hospital's computers. Imagine that ten-fold. Imagine calendars giving people information on where your kids will be, so they can be kidnapped. Imagine millions of credit cards stolen, imagine identity theft on a huge scale. This is what that key to the iPhone could do. Can the FBI tell us, for certain, how many lives they'll save, how many terrorists they'll stop if they get this info? We can hardly say "Sure, we'll let you see everything on our phones you want, any time," until we know what we're getting in exchange.
As for codes to disarm a nuclear bomb, I suppose someone might put them on their phone. And if the FBI knew for certain it was on that iPhone, then, yes, maybe, we'd agree it was worth retrieving it by any means necessary. But this iPhone? I don't think the odds are good that the info the FBI will get off that phone will be worth what it's going to cost all of us.
[doublepost=1456809576][/doublepost]
Yes. They want that particular phone breakable. BUT Apple can't break into JUST THAT ONE PHONE. Apple has to create a code that can break into any phone. Because all the phones work the same way in keeping people out. So if they can create a code to break into that phone, they've created one that can break into ANY PHONE.
In other words, a global key. Once again, there's this weird misunderstanding going on here. If Apple could code something to break into only one phone, the phone of a dead terrorist, why wouldn't they? The issue is that doing this creates code that doesn't just break into that one phone. THAT is why they don't want to do it. Yes? Listen to what Tim Cook says about it.
I use fingerprint to get onto my phone. It works half the time. And remember, the finger has to be warm. I suspect it's not so easy to fake fingerprint onto the phone. And if the phone can't read that fingerprint for any reason (and that sometimes happens with mine), it stop accepting the fingerprint and asks for the code. So, maybe you're not giving Apple enough credit here. That touchID isn't so easy to get past.
Last edited:
What are you talking about? This is not about some magical key that works remotely on millions of devices.
This is about Apple installing an OS customized for a particular phone, which allows brute force entry of passcodes until it gets the right one. It only works if you have both the phone and the custom OS installed on it.
The chances are greater that someone will trick you into installing a virus to capture your keystrokes.
No, the finger does not have to be warm. Yes, it's easy to fake if you have a good print image of the correct finger. Which is easy to guess for most people.
A custom OS that bypasses the iPhone's security features would be tantamount to a global key, at least for that model of iPhone and version of iOS (and all previous models/versions). The code won't suddenly disappear once it has been used, and the government can't allow Apple to control the conditions under which it is used, as this could have implications for the chain of custody. As a result, the government will have possession of the code. Where are the safeguards that such a key would not be used inappropriately or fall into the wrong hands? I can't see any way in which such a key could be created for one-time use only. Finally, the precedent would be set for the government to make similar demands of other mobile hardware and software providers.
Unfortunate for who? Americans have every right to question their government. That's the foundation of this country.
Historically, many pacifist corporations in the U.S. joined the war effort after Pearl Harbor was bombed. Everyone who could helped sink as many U-boat subs as necessary to break in to them and capture some Enigma machines and their code books. If that hadn't happened, more of us might be speaking German.
So do the hundreds of millions of innocent people who don't do the dirty stuff you do, knowing that Apple will protect their data from nosy feds and also CRIMINALS and terrorists. The way it should be.
[doublepost=1456814352][/doublepost]
Another one who is upset with this ruling. lol
Actually, there are three parts to what the FBI's/DOJ's request is - (1) disable the 10-tries-and-it-blows-up bomb, (2) disable the timer mechanism that slows down our attempting to hack it, and (3) allow us to do this remotely and electronically. Further, the FBI/DOJ has *not* asked for Apple to do this on their behalf and hand over the data on the phone, they have asked that Apple hand over the code itself.
Therefore, the code *would* be this "magical key" and it *would* work remotely - so you're incorrect on that point.
I also suggest taking a gander at this article, if you haven't already: http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645
I do agree, however, that being tricked into installing a virus is a likelier possibility. Problem is (and I concede this is only a statistical possibility and not a highly probable scenario), what if the virus causes this GovtOS to get loaded and then allows the victim's phone to be hacked in the same way that the FBI/DOJ is trying to do to this one phone now? I believe it was seeing this possibility that made Apple balk in the first place.
Had the FBI/DOJ attempted to conscript Apple to do the hack and hand over the data, Apple may not have been quite so resistant - it was the part about handing over the code that, IMO, got them all bent out of shape.
Yeah, that (too).
[doublepost=1456815517][/doublepost]
Admittedly, not a major point - but, just so the "record" is straight: the FBI authored the order, the judge "merely" signed it.
Last edited:
No its a judge who was able to hear both sides, Apple and US Dept of Justice.
The other, based on an ex-parte application by the FBI who probably went judge shopping decided that a momentous decision could be made that way.
"According to the New York ruling, Apple cannot be forced to help law enforcement access data on an iPhone using the justification that the court has the power to make such an order under the All Writs Act, an argument the FBI also uses in the San Bernardino case."
Well that looks just peachy
A judge understand technology ? haha.... They don't need to understand technology to understand the law. You just need to understand the case in question for a legal/illegal.
I don't know how a car works, but that doesn't mean i can't drive one.
I feel confident if this is the same outcome that the FBI is using against Apple, it won't pass in FBI's favor? unless the judge is a complete nut-ball.
Well that looks just peachy
A judge understand technology ? haha.... They don't need to understand technology to understand the law. You just need to understand the case in question for a legal/illegal.
I don't know how a car works, but that doesn't mean i can't drive one.
I feel confident if this is the same outcome that the FBI is using against Apple, it won't pass in FBI's favor? unless the judge is a complete nut-ball.
Last edited: