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I'm curious how labor costs compare between the US and other countries. Also, how many people are trained for this? Every so often, I hear that the US doesn't have enough people trained for manufacturing jobs. Plus, how many are willing to take those jobs?
Back in the old days when unions were strong bue collar workers made a decent living. Example when I was with the IBEW as a licensed electrician working at Disney and NASA I avg between 24.65hr Disney and 38.56hr. NASA. Once the unions were broke by Republicans electricians in Florida averaged 12-16hr back in 1986-1992. Amricans would love to have well paid blue collar jobs back.
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Not true. The US has a slightly lower life expectancy. People use this fact to try to say that the healthcare system is no good, when life expectancy is influenced by lifestyle, race, genetics, culture (food), that medicine cannot fix.

When you compare medical outcomes, that is when somebody with the same illness goes to the hospital and the result of their treatment, the US is unmatched. For example, the US has always led in cancer survival rates.
That also depends where you can afford to go. Having been diagnosed with MS in 1995 and going to local neurologists was a big fail. I didn't get it under control until I went to Mayo clinic. Not many can get into Mayo much less afford it. Healthcare in America like everything else, is about $$$. 1 week at Mayo cost the wife and I 25k cash.
 
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Not many can get into Mayo much less afford it. Healthcare in America like everything else, it's is about $$$.

Same as the UK. 10% of the people there carry private insurance so they can utilize private facilities and practitioners. If they didn't receive better care that way, that market wouldn't exist. Many other countries have a similar parallel system, including Germany. If you have an issue and don't want to wait in Canada, you go to a private clinic and pay yourself or cross the border to the US.
 
When I hear that things can't be manufactured in the USA, and I see companies moving their assembly outside of the country, I have to wonder what Lenovo knows that we do not. They assemble computers in the USA. Not all of them, but some.

What about in the automobile industry? While Ford and GM are sending their assembly outside of the USA, there are companies like Honda, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, and VW that assemble cars right here in the USA. What is different for those companies?

Could it be where they locate their production facilities? Just tossing this out there but Steve Jobs opened his factory in California. That's not a real corporate friendly climate. Would it have been more successful if it had opened in Texas, away from a major city? In North Carolina like Lenovo?

Hon Hai (Foxconn) through large Chinese government subsidies created huge manufacturing centers the size of cities, one employing 400,000 workers.

Where would that infrastructure and workforce be found in the US to assemble, test, and ship 600,000+ (much greater during product launch) iPhones per day (on average), and be able turn on a dime when necessary?
 
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Ought to move production to Wales! The Raspberry Pi moved production from China to the Wales in 2012.

Raspberry Pi uses spare capacity at the Sony factory in Wales. It didn't have to set anything up or train staff and it has to wait for gaps in Sony's own production for further opportunities to produce more Raspberry Pis. It costs the RPi foundation pretty much the same to use Wales or China as the RPi is not the main purpose of production at either site. Apple or anyone else would face bigger challenges in relocating production anywhere.
 
The real problem with manufacturing in the USA is finding suitably trained employees. The larger Foxconn factories have millions of workers, and the USA can't supply that. Western schools simply don't teach those skills and haven't for a long time. We teach our students how to write software, we don't teach them how to operate a CNC machine.

Cook himself made that assertion. However, every photo op of Cook visiting a manufacturer in China, shows Cook mingling with manual assemblers. Not one photo shows him standing next to a skilled machine operater. Obviously, they exist, but I doubt in quantities that dwarf America’s.
 
Companies never took care of employees first, and if a company put employees ahead of shareholders that would be a breach of their fiduciary duty to those shareholders. Moreover, maximizing profit is putting employees first (most companies don't stay in business long by minimizing profit simply so they can hire more employees). If you owned a business I doubt you would follow your own absurd logic.
If you own a business or own stocks then you know how it works. Companies are vehicles for profit, services they provide are just byproducts.
 
When I hear that things can't be manufactured in the USA, and I see companies moving their assembly outside of the country, I have to wonder what Lenovo knows that we do not. They assemble computers in the USA. Not all of them, but some.

What about in the automobile industry? While Ford and GM are sending their assembly outside of the USA, there are companies like Honda, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, and VW that assemble cars right here in the USA. What is different for those companies?

Could it be where they locate their production facilities? Just tossing this out there but Steve Jobs opened his factory in California. That's not a real corporate friendly climate. Would it have been more successful if it had opened in Texas, away from a major city? In North Carolina like Lenovo?

It is not WHO, but WHAT.
And it helps if you can get a Republican Governor to give a $3 BILLION tax incentive to build a factory.
 
The "low cost labor" game has been manipulated by China for a long time now. They realize it is the only "strength" they have to compete in a global market (because the Chinese regime has power to dictate their labor force). Now that wages in China are rising (normally as would be expected), they are willfully ignoring regulation to lower costs. This article describes:

https://www.scmp.com/tech/article/2...a-meng-wanzhou-told-staff-one-may-accept-risk

But the most relevant quote from the Huawei founder is:

“The US has very strict compliance policies, but American companies are used to it,” Ren said. “Nobody dares to flout the law, it has become a habit, and they can still achieve high speeds. Our company has not yet formed this habit, that is why communication costs are too high.”

The important point is how the above quote links low costs to non-compliance.

We always accepted that global competition is inevitable, but deliberate non-compliance with regulation is not acceptable. People in the US who end up displaced from the workforce are derided when they cry foul, but proper competition requires compliance with regulations. Displaced US workers really do have a valid gripe when other players don't have to comply with rules.

Also, China has failed to open its markets to foreign competition - and most likely never will. Again, competing for one's own "slice of the pie" was always inevitable, but if the pie is growing so does opportunity - this was "the deal" we thought we where making. China has manipulated the system by being invited to compete, but not contributing to global opportunity growth by opening markets.

The really bad part of the "cost of labor" game is how the US government has let US employers exploit foreign labor to drive down costs. This really has harmed workers in the US who are now starting to realize how their own government and industry has conspired against them. This has been most recently severe in the tech industry. Over the last 20-30 years, a career in the tech industry was considered the best way for upward mobility in the US. But now, there are a large number of mid-senior level workers in tech who are displaced from the industry, so the "deal" has been broken. Keep in mind, a large number of these now displaced workers have retired parents who were members of the blue collar workforce (and are voters in the "blue wall" - duh). Parents who worked two jobs to put their kids through engineering school are not taking it kindly when their kids are getting screwed out of jobs when they hit 40. This has dissuaded people from entering STEM fields altogether. If you don't believe this, take a walk around an engineering school campus - and notice how many students are foreign nationals (I'll let you conclude which nationality has become dominant).

Even worse, tech monopolies have killed the tech industry by their "winner take all" paranoid disfunction. Big tech players exert control of venture capitol firms, buy out startups to prevent future competition, and use unfair business practices that disadvantage smaller companies. This has not only run the "innovation pump" dry, but it has burned it out.

This year's tech stock slide is evidence it's going bad. It will only get worse.
[doublepost=1545082863][/doublepost]Oh one bit of relevant history regarding telecom: The Huawei 5G "game" contains very important history.

Huawei only has 2 competitors in 5G: Ericsson, and Nokia.

Nokia ended up acquiring Lucent, which was once owned by the French company Alcatel. Alcatel acquired Lucent after Lucent and Bell Laboratories were spun off from AT&T in 1996. Alcatel maintained a telecom monopoly in France which Lucent could never penetrate due to unfair the monopoly supported by the French government. Yet Alcatel was not restricted from selling into the US telecom market. Now the USA has ZERO players in telecom/5G. So if you need an example of how unfair competition harms industry, here it is.
 
"the Mac Pro facility in Austin, Texas"

How many years has it been since Apple sold a Mac Pro? It's going on six years since it was updated. At most the base model is worth a thousand dollars but the price is three times that. Tim Cook is an enemy of "America First" as is the New York Times.
I agree that the Mac Pro's redesign should arrive sooner, but that doesn't make Tim Cook the "enemy of America First", lmao. Pretty sure Trump is the enemy of "America First", given that he colluded with a foriegn government to get elected.

This is why Trump's corporate media coverage is universally negative. Trump's inauguration speech was short and to the point and represented everything the "American" corporate establishment opposes.
Fox News is the the largest corporate media in America, and they brown nose him every chance they get. When it comes to propaganda they're trying to compete with the Chinese and North Korean state-run media.
 
When I hear that things can't be manufactured in the USA, and I see companies moving their assembly outside of the country, I have to wonder what Lenovo knows that we do not. They assemble computers in the USA. Not all of them, but some.

What about in the automobile industry? While Ford and GM are sending their assembly outside of the USA, there are companies like Honda, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, and VW that assemble cars right here in the USA. What is different for those companies?

Could it be where they locate their production facilities? Just tossing this out there but Steve Jobs opened his factory in California. That's not a real corporate friendly climate. Would it have been more successful if it had opened in Texas, away from a major city? In North Carolina like Lenovo?

It depends on what you're making and how that fits into the global supply chain. So, if you're making Ford Rangers for the South Asian market, it might make more sense to established production facilities in Thailand.
 
Previous failure does not mean future failure. Everything is different this time, including the team. However, it may mean that it's something you don't really want to deal with.

Was/is US manufacturing any good? With the right management, the answer is "yes."

If Foxconn can build a factory in India and Brazil, they could build one in the US. It just takes money.
 
Apple is assembling computers in China instead of the US despite the fact that it can be done in the US for the same or less money? So what is your theory? That they like the extra complexity of a supply chain that is 10,000 miles long? They hate America? They're too stupid or lack the knowledge required to build a plant in the US?

First, cars and iPhones have similar percentages of US vs foreign-made goods. The fact that one is assembled here and the other in China does not mean anything.

The difference between car companies and electronics is the level of skill required to assemble them and the percentage of manual vs automated assembly. Bolting together steel parts with 1/4" bolts is not the same as assembling a glass and aluminum phone with screws that are barely visible to the human eye. For that reason, most of the electronics in cars are not made in the US, and likely never will be.

In addition, shipping cars is a lot more expensive than shipping phones, and the shipping cost accounts for a far greater percentage of the overall cost. The cost of shipping a car here from Japan or Europe can be 10% or more of the price of that car, where on a phone the shipping costs is maybe 1%.

It is where they built their plant. Steve Jobs built the plant in California. That was a bad choice of locations to build an assembly plant. The tax and regulatory climate are not business friendly in California. The cost of living is pretty high and therefore, it will cost them more for labor. If that same plant had been located in Tennessee or rural Texas it would have cost less money for the labor.
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It depends on what you're making and how that fits into the global supply chain. So, if you're making Ford Rangers for the South Asian market, it might make more sense to established production facilities in Thailand.

Right, except that GM and Ford build vehicles in Mexico to ship to the US market. Think about this, Honda builds Accords in Marysville, Ohio. At one time, even the Accords sold in Japan were assembled in Ohio.
 
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While it is seemingly too late since the horse has bolted, if, back in the early part of this Millenia, if American corporate manufacturing had kept their jobs in the States, the fact is, that exact same infrastructure of educated engineers would have developed State-side.

The result would have been that, 2 decades later, the bank balance of the United States would have been what China has right now. And the consequences of China having more money (i.e. real money) that the United States would have been so different, in terms of military and economy.

So when Tim Cook looks into an interviewer's eyes and explains that it's not possible to bring back manufacturing to America because China's network of suppliers is so much greater, yeah, tell us, Tim, how it got that way in the first place 2 decades ago.

Anyone interested in a long term solution that might take 2 decades till 2038 to effect?

Try reversing the trend. Don't look for short term solutions. Call out short-term'ers like Cook, and look to long-term strategists like ... care to name who is formulating a long term solution for the country?

A hint: any person who dares propose a long term solution, that brings back manufacturing and starts the very long, slow process of building up expertise in the United States, will, be, crucified, by, the system who stand to profit in the short term.
 
While it is seemingly too late since the horse has bolted, if, back in the early part of this Millenia, if American corporate manufacturing had kept their jobs in the States, the fact is, that exact same infrastructure of educated engineers would have developed State-side.

The result would have been that, 2 decades later, the bank balance of the United States would have been what China has right now. And the consequences of China having more money (i.e. real money) that the United States would have been so different, in terms of military and economy.

So when Tim Cook looks into an interviewer's eyes and explains that it's not possible to bring back manufacturing to America because China's network of suppliers is so much greater, yeah, tell us, Tim, how it got that way in the first place 2 decades ago.

Anyone interested in a long term solution that might take 2 decades till 2038 to effect?

Try reversing the trend. Don't look for short term solutions. Call out short-term'ers like Cook, and look to long-term strategists like ... care to name who is formulating a long term solution for the country?

A hint: any person who dares propose a long term solution, that brings back manufacturing and starts the very long, slow process of building up expertise in the United States, will, be, crucified, by, the system who stand to profit in the short term.

That is one possibility but our manufacturing and assembly went where the labor is cheapest. Should the US have taxed or regulated US companies making their products abroad?
 
Everyone makes mistakes.

If Foxconn can build a factory in India and Brazil, they could build one in the US. It just takes money.

But you don't have to pay Chinese people allot to work... In the U.S, you do, so Apple was all abut money from the beginning.

In fact if Apple cared abut anything else, i'm sure products would have been assembled in U.S. Didn't Tim Cook only now say he wanted the Mac Pro assembled in the U.S ? How long did that take before someone realized...?
 
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Oh please. Who made the clothes that you are wearing, and why didn’t you pay more to make sure it was from America end to end? If you want to see why businesses try to cut costs look in the mirror, and then turn it around and see where THAT was manufactured and think about why you bought the less expensive one.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was just pointing out they were too cheap to have their products made here. What does that have to do with the clothes I wear? I don't cheap out on my clothes nor do I buy the most expensive clothes either. I don't really care where my clothes are made. If they're made in America that's a plus but I could care less. Nice try.
 
The part of the story was incorrect:
"Jobs made a second attempt to establish a manufacturing culture in Silicon Valley shortly after leaving Apple. In 1990 he oversaw another $10 million plant to build his Next personal workstation. The facility featured robotic devices, but it too was unable to produce in quantities that would support a long-term assembly operation, and it failed just like its Apple predecessor."

The Next machines were built in Fremont until NeXT closed it's doors.
NeXT on the hardware side with messed over by Motorola's inept execution on the 68060 and their RISC 88K.
NeXT was purchased by Apple.
 
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They're not paid a pittance. The median income per household in China is around 18,000 Yuan. Cost of living is low enough to live very comfortably on that income.

If both parents had a job at foxconn, the household would earn about 66,000 Yuan per year. That's not enough to live comfortably in the USA, but it's more than triple the typical income in China.

They are paid a pittance compared to what would need to be paid in the US (ie to move the manufacturing "home"). You can't pay a US worker US$6,000 per year - even if they were trained (especially if they were trained).

Yes, Foxconn pay quite well for the local market, for the local cost of living.

Eventually the cost of living in China will be too high for Foxconn / Apple to afford the labour... so they'll move somewhere else... (assuming we aren't either at war by then, or left scrambling to cope with worldwide freight when the oil runs out...)
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The Next machines were built in Fremont until NeXT closed it's doors.
NeXT on the hardware side with messed over by Motorola's inept execution on the 68060 and their RISC 88K.
NeXT was purchased by Apple.

And look where that got them... $400m for a dead-end software company owned by... Oh yeah. :)

"Jobs, who has become something of a historic figure in Silicon Valley, will leave his post as Next's chief executive to become an "adviser," reporting directly to Apple chairman and CEO Gilbert Amelio."

LOL Ahh poor Gil...
 
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But you don't have to pay Chinese people allot to work... In the U.S, you do, so Apple was all abut money from the beginning.

You don't have to pay for labor, but you need to pay for a lot of other things, all of which get capitalized by someone else.

It probably wasn't financially viable for Apple to build its own manufacturing back in the day, but today it depends on what your criteria for "viable" is. Preserve 40% margins? Nope. What about 25% margin? Maybe that would be doable.
 
It is where they built their plant. Steve Jobs built the plant in California. That was a bad choice of locations to build an assembly plant. The tax and regulatory climate are not business friendly in California. The cost of living is pretty high and therefore, it will cost them more for labor. If that same plant had been located in Tennessee or rural Texas it would have cost less money for the labor.

Back in the day, there was a lot of manufacturing in Silicon Valley. (Hint: The word Silicon. It was not called Software Valley, nor Network Valley.) The Valley's vast tracts of suburbia were initially filled with blue collar workers working in the Valley's factories. GM and Ford built cars. Lockheed(?) built tanks. IBM built hard drives. Dole dried and canned fruit.

A better name for this thread would be NYT Article Explores Apple's Failed Attempt to Continue To Build Computers in California. In the early '80's of course Apple would continue to build their products in the Valley.
 
When I hear that things can't be manufactured in the USA, and I see companies moving their assembly outside of the country, I have to wonder what Lenovo knows that we do not. They assemble computers in the USA. Not all of them, but some.

For mass-market electronics - TVs, DVD players, mobile phones, etc. - the infrastructure simply isn't there. There is no town or city in the US with a couple thousand small electronic parts suppliers. Nowhere you could put up a huge factory in a few months, and recruit ten or twenty thousand low-wage, high-skill workers.
 
When I hear that things can't be manufactured in the USA, and I see companies moving their assembly outside of the country, I have to wonder what Lenovo knows that we do not. They assemble computers in the USA. Not all of them, but some.

What about in the automobile industry? While Ford and GM are sending their assembly outside of the USA, there are companies like Honda, Kia, Hyundai, BMW, Mercedes, and VW that assemble cars right here in the USA. What is different for those companies?

Could it be where they locate their production facilities? Just tossing this out there but Steve Jobs opened his factory in California. That's not a real corporate friendly climate. Would it have been more successful if it had opened in Texas, away from a major city? In North Carolina like Lenovo?

So how many computers are Lenove producing in the US?
100 000? 1 million? 10 millions? 100 millions?

Apple sells 20+ million Macs and about 215 millions iPhones per year. How much of that would you think the US would be able to produce?

Can you point to any manufacturing of expensive products in the US which are in the millions range?
 
That is one possibility but our manufacturing and assembly went where the labor is cheapest. Should the US have taxed or regulated US companies making their products abroad?

Southern Dad, your question derives from your inner core values, and I cannot even shift your thinking unless I unmask your core values, and ask you to re-evaluate.

For examples, two Left Wingers discussing politics readily agree the Right Wingers are crazy. Conversely, two Right Wingers speaking between themselves agree that Left Wingers are absolutely rotten to the core.

Another example, 90% of Republications like Trump, while 8% of Democrats support him.

All this is to illustrate that people are driven by inner core values that shield them from thinking in a different paradigm.

This is to say, you seem to have a core value that what's best for me is the only possible option, i.e. a company has no choice but to go to its cheapest manufacturing source. And your core value is the same one that has driven U.S. Corporations to -- let's be frank -- bankrupt the country.

What about the long-forgotten core value of the cycle of profitability: Companies make products that are sold into its community, the Company profits and uses those profits to create jobs for its community, who buy the Company's products that creates their own jobs etc. etc.

This is based on an inner value that says it like JFK: what can I do for my country?

Whereas, somewhere, an entire nation has been taught that: what can I do for me, and everything else be hanged.

When 50% of the country thinks like that, the ship tips over and capsizes.
 
For mass-market electronics - TVs, DVD players, mobile phones, etc. - the infrastructure simply isn't there. There is no town or city in the US with a couple thousand small electronic parts suppliers. Nowhere you could put up a huge factory in a few months, and recruit ten or twenty thousand low-wage, high-skill workers.

That’s odd. Lenovo opened a computer assembly facility in Guilford County, North Carolina. The Mac Pro was assembled in Texas. It can be done here, the companies don’t do it because as Parker says, it costs more.

U.S. production means faster product delivery for customers that demand it, Parker said. The new factory also allows Lenovo to wait until late in the production cycle before customizing devices, for example with cover etchings or tags that help companies and universities keep track of their property, he said. Governments and some other customers want or require products they buy to be built in the U.S.A., he said.

"Those make a business case for us to put this facility here," Parker said. "The fact is, the costs are still higher (than overseas). It's an investment for us. Essentially we've decided that there's a business case that can be closed because we have a competitive advantage here."

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wa...-first-us-manufacturing-plant-in-nc?_amp=true
 
So how many computers are Lenove producing in the US?
100 000? 1 million? 10 millions? 100 millions?

Apple sells 20+ million Macs and about 215 millions iPhones per year. How much of that would you think the US would be able to produce?

Can you point to any manufacturing of expensive products in the US which are in the millions range?

It isn’t a case of not being able to produce large numbers of the products in the US. It’s not being willing. It’s simple cheaper to produce your product outside the US and shop it here.
 
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