Newbie question - purpose of "red X" at top left of window

[Tortellino]

But there also seems to be a drawback to "close but leave running." Namely, when you click on the icon in the dock, or select in the cmd-tab "floating dock" or whatever it is called, you bring the program to the "foreground" but with no windows open. This serves no purpose at all except to drive me nuts, as the system in that case "is not doing what it is supposed to do." Instead it does "nothing."

Supposed by whom? By Windows users? If Mac OS was like Windows then it would be just as bad.

You need to realize that this behavior existed since Mac OS 5.0 - the first multitasking Mac OS (actually it was called System Software 5). It was released in 1987, so closing without quitting has been around for 22 years, and as you may have noticed, it's irritating when things that one is used to suddenly change.

Another reason could be the Apple Human Interface Guidelines. They have been researched and published for all to follow. One of the principles is consistency: the same element should always perform the same function. So it would be inconsistent for a button to close a window in one case, and shut down the application in another. Consistency makes it easier to learn new applications and reduces the number of human errors. Actually, it was such consistency that made me switch to Macs in 1996. And now that System Preferences will shut down when I close the window drives me nuts

 

[Tortellino]

It boils down to can I have two pages open in two different programs at the same time, one in front and one in back, that can be accessed just by clicking somewhere on the program? Or will they always shrink away into the Dock? I am so confused.

You can have as many windows open in an application as you need. You can open one window in Safari and go to AOL, and then open a new window in Safari (File->New Window) and go to Fodors in it, and then switch between the windows by clicking somewhere on them (but not on the buttons).

When a window shrinks into the Dock you can pull it back out. Just point to the corresponding icon in the Dock and click on it, and it will pop right back (you do have magnification in the Dock turned on, don't you?)

If I have misunderstood your problem then may be Apple Store would be your best bet, as you could show them what exactly you need to accomplish.

 

[challiman]

Getting there

Tortellino, you have not misunderstood at all. I think maybe I was using the wrong terminology at one time, which may have caused some confusion. I just turned on magnification, but not sure what that does.

Also, those little lights under the dock are pretty faint. Right now there are lights under Finder, Safari, and address. I'm not sure why there would be one under address because I'm using AOL for my contacts, maybe that works for that, too.

Slowly but surely this will make sense. Thanks a lot.

 

[Galley]

The red button will quit an app, if that app is not designed to run in more than one instance.

 

[IgnatiusTheKing]

Slowly but surely this will make sense. Thanks a lot.

Do you have an Apple Store nearby? If so, you sound like the perfect candidate for some of their free workshops, where they show you all sorts of things that seem obvious to the "seasoned" Mac user but completely baffling to someone just switching from Windows.

 

[jasimon9]

The "red X"/cmd-W closes a single window. You may often find that you have multiple windows open within an application (for instance, if you have multiple browser windows open). If you want to close one window, use cmd-W or the red x; if you want to quit the app entirely and close all the windows associated with it, use cmd-Q or Application Menu > Quit Application.

Cmd-H hides an entire application and all its windows. If you use cmd-H to hide an app, the easiest way to get it back onscreen is to click that application's icon in the Dock. You can also go to the Application Menu and choose "Show All"

If you use the yellow dash or double-click the title bar of a window, it minimizes that window to the Dock. To reinstate it, click the icon in the Dock for that particular window, which will be near the trash can (not the icon for the application itself).

I am starting to get the intuitive feel for most of what you are saying.

However, I am not getting used to "getting the windows back" by having to first decide "is it running minimized or is it hidden or is it simply running with no windows." Seems each of these needs different behavior. Plus sometimes Cmd-N to get a new instance of a running window.

Seems overly complicated, but maybe that's just me.

It would seem like many people commenting here just try to find a consistent subset that work the same way "most" of the time, and stick to that.

It makes a window "as large as it needs to be" to display the screen's information...whereas "full screen"-ing it by dragging the "triangle" in the bottom right corner of a screen may leave blank areas to the sides of the content, reducing the potential for productivity.

On the other hand, one application I use GoToMyPc always tries to open the maximum size it can, and thus wasting a ton of space. I am always making it smaller after it starts.

Except in iTunes for example where it turns it into an entirely different UI format (the mini iTunes window). Which can be really really annoying if you change screen resolutions which makes the bottom of the iTunes window beneath the dock and you can't get to the resize grab thingee in the bottom right hand corner.

I agree with the OP that some things don't make sense. There are too many to list but for example, if you hit Command-M in iChat and then want to maximize the window buddy list again, you can hit command-1. I do this a lot. It's very helpful.

But say you're in mail and hit command-M. Then hit command-1 and it won't bring mail back up. Now you may say, the Mail window isn't shortcutted to come up with Command-1. This is true; however, if you close the Mail window (command-W) and then hit command-1 it will reappear, implying there is a keyboard shortcut that's just not listed in the menu or fully implemented.

And again, I agree with you in your implication that things could be designed with more simplicity and more consistency.

Supposed by whom? By Windows users? If Mac OS was like Windows then it would be just as bad.

You need to realize that this behavior existed since Mac OS 5.0 - the first multitasking Mac OS (actually it was called System Software 5). It was released in 1987, so closing without quitting has been around for 22 years, and as you may have noticed, it's irritating when things that one is used to suddenly change.

Another reason could be the Apple Human Interface Guidelines. They have been researched and published for all to follow. One of the principles is consistency: the same element should always perform the same function. So it would be inconsistent for a button to close a window in one case, and shut down the application in another. Consistency makes it easier to learn new applications and reduces the number of human errors. Actually, it was such consistency that made me switch to Macs in 1996. And now that System Preferences will shut down when I close the window drives me nuts

I agree with your general philosophy. And all for consistency. However, I am on the part of the learning curve when the behaviors I need are not consistent. I am wanting to internalize the behaviors I need to become fluent in this new environment, and I find I am always stumbling when trying to do the simplest things, like "get an application back."

Click on the dock icon ... no, click on the running app at the end of the dock ... no Cmd-N ... no, for some apps, not any of these work. For example in VMWare, it seems the only way is to make VMWare the foreground application > Window > Virtual Machine Library > select the VM to start.

Supposedly there is a hotkey, Shift-Cmd-L which would do most of the above, but it usually will not work, and simply "does nothing."

I do not consider this "consistency" when in my mind I simply want to "get the application back." In my mind, I don't have the habit of keeping straight for each application, its current state of "not being visible."

 

[challiman]

for Ignatius

Not really close, but I made the commitment to do the tutoring when I decided to buy the computer at the Apple Store in Indianapolis. I'm a 2 hour each way drive from there. I wanted to go straight to the source because I've heard some bad stories about people who buy from other sources and then need help. Especially here in the Midwest where Macs don't have the popularity they have in other areas and even getting programs used to be a major chore, I wanted to get my info and buying advice from Apple. I'm a hands-on learner, so I have definite plans to take the tutoring. I'm making an appointment for next Monday but was trying to get a grasp on some things before then.
Back in the early 90's when I taught school in California we all had Macs. I even bought one here in Indiana in about 96, but at that time I could hardly find a program for it or open attachments or anything and got utterly frustrated with it. But, I'm into photography and many suggested the Mac for that purpose. After a dreadful experience with a Dell my husband bought I was put off that brand. So, here I am with a new learning curve and while I don't have anything urgent, I do want to get all this straight as soon as possible.
I keep making a list of questions so if I can start marking them off that will be a good thing.
Thanks.

 

[admwright]

The red button will quit an app, if that app is not designed to run in more than one instance.

And that is the problem - how do you know how a program was designed to work? Lets take two Apple programs: iTunes and iPhoto. Both of these only run one instance and with only one window (as far as I know). Now if I click the red button on iTunes it will close the window but keep running. With iPhoto the red button quits the application, and it takes a loooong time to reload with 20,000+ pictures. How are you supposed to know that is the behaviour you will get? I is so frustrating to quit iPhoto when you forget and click the red button to close the window.

 

[IgnatiusTheKing]

It would seem like many people commenting here just try to find a consistent subset that work the same way "most" of the time, and stick to that.

The only time I ever use cmd-W is to close a tab (or window) in Safari when I'm done with it. Otherwise, I always quit the application when I'm done with it by using cmd-Q.

If I want to get a window out of the way without closing it, I almost always hide it (cmd-H). I almost never minimize windows to the Dock (yellow -).

Spaces comes in very handy if you like to have multiple applications running at once. The way it works is you can define which "space" an app is visible in, so that anything not in that space isn't cluttering up your desktop. When you switch between applications/windows in different spaces (or just switch between the spaces themselves), the entire desktop "moves" out of the way and an entirely new instance of it moves into view. It's hard to describe unless you just play with it (System Prefs > Exposé & Spaces).

I keep Mail and iCal in one space, Safari and iChat in another, Photoshop gets its own space, as does Illustrator, InDesign, Dreamweaver, etc. There are a few apps I set to appear in every space, such as Finder, System Prefs and Bridge.

Hope that all helps.

 

[Tortellino]

I agree with your general philosophy. And all for consistency. However, I am on the part of the learning curve when the behaviors I need are not consistent.

I agree that Apple has been failing to enforce it's own guidelines. In fact I am really worried that the once beautiful interface is going down the drain. Personally, I use cmd-tab to switch between applications, and then cmd-N to open new windows/documents, or use the menu if cmd-N is ambiguous. It works in the vast majority of cases.

 

[jasimon9]

The only time I ever use cmd-W is to close a tab (or window) in Safari when I'm done with it. Otherwise, I always quit the application when I'm done with it by using cmd-Q.

If I want to get a window out of the way without closing it, I almost always hide it (cmd-H). I almost never minimize windows to the Dock (yellow -).

Spaces comes in very handy if you like to have multiple applications running at once. The way it works is you can define which "space" an app is visible in, so that anything not in that space isn't cluttering up your desktop. When you switch between applications/windows in different spaces (or just switch between the spaces themselves), the entire desktop "moves" out of the way and an entirely new instance of it moves into view. It's hard to describe unless you just play with it (System Prefs > Exposé & Spaces).

I keep Mail and iCal in one space, Safari and iChat in another, Photoshop gets its own space, as does Illustrator, InDesign, Dreamweaver, etc. There are a few apps I set to appear in every space, such as Finder, System Prefs and Bridge.

Hope that all helps.

I have been experiementing with Spaces. I think that it might be good for Photoshop, which really wants the whole screen. But so far I have found it more frustrating than helpful for this reason: I am working in Pages, and for some reason, when I do a "Find" command, the "Find" window seems to want to open in another screen. This drives me nuts.

It is as though the Pages program remembers which space it is supposed to be in, but the "Find" window does not, and want to open somewhere else. I'd call this a bug.

 

[jasimon9]

I guess my biggest frustration is trying to bring back a running program. I am always finding myself clicking on the main dock icon, and getting nowhere. Then later I remember I have to click in the running program at the other end.

Seems like you should not have to know which icon to click.

That is, why should I have to know the running state of a program before I try to get it visible?

 

[BlueRevolution]

What do you mean? You can always open a program by clicking its icon, whether or not it is already running.

 

[jnc]

What do you mean? You can always open a program by clicking its icon, whether or not it is already running.

Sounds to me like they're pressing the amber button, minimising the app.

I am always finding myself clicking on the main dock icon, and getting nowhere. Then later I remember I have to click in the running program at the other end.

 

[jasimon9]

What do you mean? You can always open a program by clicking its icon, whether or not it is already running.

I wish that were so. And when I try it, it does seem so.

But in some cases, it seems I can click on the main icon until doomsday, and certain programs will never "appear" until I click on the minimized icon. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact steps to reproduce this situtation but I will look for them.

 

[swingerofbirch]

I wish that were so. And when I try it, it does seem so.

But in some cases, it seems I can click on the main icon until doomsday, and certain programs will never "appear" until I click on the minimized icon. Unfortunately, I don't have the exact steps to reproduce this situtation but I will look for them.

Do you mean that the main application window won't appear or it won't switch to that app?

For example, if you have iChat running and your buddy list is minimized and you click on iChat in the dock--the buddy list will "un-minimize" and come to the forefront. However, if you have the buddy list minimized and another window open in iChat like a chat with someone, it will not "un-minimize" the buddy list and will show that other window which is open.

When you click on the application in the dock, look in the upper left hand corner to the immediate right of the Apple logo. You should see the name of the application, which means you have switched to that application. If you don't, something's wrong. If you do, it's behaving "normally," which I have said and agree with you is not always consistent.

 

[jasimon9]

Do you mean that the main application window won't appear or it won't switch to that app?

For example, if you have iChat running and your buddy list is minimized and you click on iChat in the dock--the buddy list will "un-minimize" and come to the forefront. However, if you have the buddy list minimized and another window open in iChat like a chat with someone, it will not "un-minimize" the buddy list and will show that other window which is open.

When you click on the application in the dock, look in the upper left hand corner to the immediate right of the Apple logo. You should see the name of the application, which means you have switched to that application. If you don't, something's wrong. If you do, it's behaving "normally," which I have said and agree with you is not always consistent.

I previously implied that I would provide "exact steps to reproduce."

Since that time the only situations that I have found which can be reproduced relate to two specific applications:

1. Firefox. This issue seems to be based on the "feature" that when you click on a program with a running instance, the window for that instance appears. I would consider this "feature" normally to be the desired behavior. And if you want another instance, typically the CMD-N keystroke is used.

However, with Firefox, it seems that frequently I have no "browser" windows open, but the "download history" window is open. So clicking the Dock icon, brings that window to the foreground. However, I am trying to "start a browser window" and it appears to be not working.

So the workaround in this case is to recognize the download history window as "Firefox", and then use CMD-N to get the browser.

2. VMWare: this application sometimes does "nothing" when I am trying to bring back an instance of a running VM. I am not sure of the exact sequence yet, but when "nothing happens", the workaround is to go through the VMWare menu to invoke the Virtual Machine Library window, and select the VM from there.

The thing that I am getting used to is that the keystroke sequence Shift-CMD-L will not work whenever VMWare is the active application, because VMWare does not have the focus when you are within the VM, even though VMWare is the displayed menu at the top of the screen. Rather the Windows application within the VM has the focus, and Shift-CMD-L has no meaning in that context.

To further explain the above distinction, the following exercises will demonstrate it using VMWare:

- make sure that an application inside the VM has the focus; note that the main system menu indicates VMWare; press Shift-CMD-L; nothing happens (assuming that Shift-CMD-L is not interpreted by the application inside the VM).

- click on the top of the window in the title area. While the main system menu does not change, but remains VMWare, VMWare does now have the focus, and Shift-CMD-L is acted upon to bring up the Virtual Machine Library.

As you might imagine, before understanding this subtlety, it was very annoying to not be able to get Shift-CMD-L to do anything, even though it "seemed" VMWare had the focus.

 

[NoSmokingBandit]

I hear you with the Firefox thing. I've said before that this could be fixed by adding a bit mor functionality to the dock. If Firefox is the active app then the dock icon does nothing. You can click on it all day long, but if FF is active theres nothing going on. Imo, if FF is the active app and you click the dock icon you should get a new window. If Finder is active and you click the icon you should get a new window. This fits more into the "point and click" interface the zealots brag about.

I have the Download Statusbar addon installed to firefox so i dont have this problem any more, but i agree that it is stupidly frustrating.

Welcome to Macintosh.

Leaving the program "open" even if no windows are open makes 100% sense to me. In fact on Windows I hate having to reload MS Excel or Word just because I closed all of it's windows. Don't get me started on Photoshop.

Apples and Oranges my friend.

The thing is that when more programs migrate to a Tab interface (CS4 is a good example) then there is no point in closing the window because everything is contained within the tabs. If Minimizing in OSX didnt suck so much it would be even better.

When i jump from windows 7 to Leopard it feels like im walking back 10 years in window management.

 

[jasimon9]

I hear you with the Firefox thing. I've said before that this could be fixed by adding a bit mor functionality to the dock. If Firefox is the active app then the dock icon does nothing. You can click on it all day long, but if FF is active theres nothing going on. Imo, if FF is the active app and you click the dock icon you should get a new window. If Finder is active and you click the icon you should get a new window. This fits more into the "point and click" interface the zealots brag about.

I have the Download Statusbar addon installed to firefox so i dont have this problem any more, but i agree that it is stupidly frustrating.



The thing is that when more programs migrate to a Tab interface (CS4 is a good example) then there is no point in closing the window because everything is contained within the tabs. If Minimizing in OSX didnt suck so much it would be even better.

When i jump from windows 7 to Leopard it feels like im walking back 10 years in window management.

Yes, I have absolutely no quarrel with GimmeSlack12. Makes complete sense to leave programs running. Many people have jumped into the fray making this kind of argument.

Again, I have no issues with that and agree with them.

My issue is with consistency. OS X makes some forward progress in some areas with consistency. But in other areas, it is almost comical about how inconsistently things are implemented.

A good example is the delete function. In Windows, the delete key deletes. In OS X, sometimes it does (as in Mail) but other times it has no function and you have to either drag to trash or Cmd-Delete.

And probably not the thread to get started on Home/End/PageUp/PageDown, as that is discussed elsewhere.

The point of this thread is more "consistency" and "what is the preferred set of options to "make not visible" and even more importantly "get back" a window.