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I wonder what kind of back room dealings got Paramount to go HD-DVD exclusive at this point in the game.


Lethal

I legitimately doubt any backroom dealings were involved - it probably came down to simple economics. I mean, by Sony's figures (and they'll spin them to make the product look better than it has been looking, so I tend to be skeptical about them anyway), two thirds of PS3 buyers in the US don't even have HDTV. Thus, they are NOT going to be buying Blu-Ray discs (unless they are imbeciles - which I guess is possible, why else drop $500 on something that won't even look its best unless you have HDTV). Not only that, but every report I've read in Variety and other trade papers that focus on home video sales seem to suggest that HD-DVD buyers are buying more discs per player than Blu-Ray owners. So - you've got one format that has a patent owned by a competing media company (SEC) that isn't selling in Europe, is sluggish in the US (and most of the US buyers can't even take advantage of the HD capabilities anyway - this isn't like the PS2 being a cheap way for tons of people to get a DVD player - you need a certain amount of pre-existing hardware first to actually make it worth while - and we still live in an age where people buy RF adaptors) and the Japanese market is actually not a big profit center for home video (at least when compared to the US, Europe and Australia -- tariffs, the insanely huge Asian bootleg market and just different consumer trends make it less important than one might think, even if Japan does have a population that embraces technology with a greater fervor than the rest of the world) and you have another format that all the big studios (except for Sony and what, Disney - and Disney is notorious for being gun-shy about technology anyway - let's not forget their foray into DVD - 1999 barebones discs for $40 MSRP - it took them until 2001 to actually get on the ball for the Disney/Touchstone label (Miramax/Dimension/Pixar and a few other Buena Vista properties were better but the Disney brand didn't fully embrace DVD until the first quarter of '01) are producing for - and that owners are actually using as a DVD player (instead of maybe owning a player just because they own a game machine - which is a big difference) -- if the sales figures aren't supporting an existing Blu-Ray lineup, I hardly think that means that Sumner Redstone made some backroom deal. Paramount has a very shrewd board of directors and it is important for them to increase profits. One way to do that is to eliminate an area that isn't paying off.

It does suck for consumers who bought into Blu-Ray thinking they could watching everything by every studio (except for Universal - now there might have been a backroom deal there -- I'm not 100% clear on what GE's investment in HD-DVD is - if anything, but I imagine they are getting a cut of something) - but this is hardly the first or last time something like this has/will happen.

Blockbuster is the group that will end up looking the most stupid (and it is funny that Blockbuster was owned by Viacom - the parent company of Paramount and Dreamworks - until 2004) - they are already losing assloads of money and they announced in late June that they are closing down 300 stores or something - publicly aligning with one format (which was stupid - Blockbuster is no longer a big player in terms of deciding what consumers will choose for a format -- the elimination of "new release rental only" windows that came along with DVD totally changed consumer buying/renting habits. Without having to wait months or even years for a "home video" window to by a product at an affordable price (as opposed to the $70 - $100 a pop price under the rental agreement windows with VHS - which was a key way Blockbuster was able to get so huge in the '80s) customers are much more likely to buy something rather than rent it - especially if Blockbuster or whoever is sold out) puts them in a situation where they might not be able to get a HD-DVD contract, depending on what terms were set with their exclusivity arrangement with Sony/Blu-Ray (if Sony is giving them more profit points - they are in trouble).
 
I wonder what kind of back room dealings got Paramount to go HD-DVD exclusive at this point in the game.

Rumor has it the payoff was $150,000,000.

Blu-rays discs are outselling HD-DVDs 2:1 in the US and even among stand-alone players BD has just pulled ahead in terms of number sold (monthly not overall). From what I've read (in Variety's Video Business weekly) BD is doing better than HD-DVD in Europe as well.
 
Filmgirl,
My comment was partially tongue in cheek, but it does seem that Paramount and DreamWorks got some financial incentive to go HD-DVD exclusive. It makes since considering how HD-DVD is just getting trounced by Blu-Ray right now. You don't jump onto a sinking ship unless someone makes it worth your while.

Blockbuster is the group that will end up looking the most stupid (and it is funny that Blockbuster was owned by Viacom...
Blockbuster is between a rock and a pit-of-doom. DVD sales are slowing, Netflix became the new "it" company, and there is a next-gen format war going on. So BB is closing B&M stores which are bleeding money, adding on-line services to compete w/Netflix, and streamlining their inventory supply chain by favoring Blu-ray (which accounted for 70% of their High Def DVD rentals). All three moves make sense especially picking the format that is doing vastly better in their stores (take note that not all stores when Blu-ray only so I assume stores that have good HD-DVD rentals/sales will continue to have HD-DVD titles). I mean, why have 25 BR and 25 HD versions of the same title if all the BR versions leave the store Friday night but only 5 of the HD versions do? There is no point in stocking product that doesn't move. And if the trends change BB is free to change w/them. It's not like they signed an exclusivity deal w/Sony or anything they just chose to put more weight behind the format that was in more demand by their customers.


Lethal
 
There goes my Christmas present to myself this year. My talked to a "somewhat reliable" Sony rep a few months ago and they said that they would like to have the blu-ray players at $150 NEXT Christmas. I'd be great if it happend THIS Christmas. :mad:
 
I am considering buying the extremely expensive SuperBlu from LG just so I wont have to care about which format wins...
 
Personally I think both sides are completely irrelevant. We are a DIGITAL world now, the future is neither of these formats or CD's for that matter, it's high definition digital downloads/streaming & home server digital storage/distribution ala AppleTV.

Apple set the standard for music, Joost and others are experimenting with high quality streaming of video and I'm sure Apple will come along soon and implement an elegant movie rental service.

Rooms stacked full of shiny plastic discs will soon feel anachronistic, if not already frankly.

Vanilla
 
HD DVD == region free :)

Blu-ray == region locked :mad:

Therefore, Blu-ray can rot in Hell.

I think the limiting factor here though is the fact that for most people on most normal sized HDTVs, DVD looks good enough. I have two HDTVs, a 27" LCD and a 120" front projector. On the LCD, DVD looks just fine thanks. On the projector using an upscaling DVD player, DVD looks pretty good too and to most people it would be considered amazing. Stick an HD DVD on though and then it really shines. Like SACD and DVD-A (both of which I can also play) it is unlikely that most people will be able to appreciate the difference.
 
I am considering buying the extremely expensive SuperBlu from LG just so I wont have to care about which format wins...

reading around the web, comments from owners of the LG superblu have reported that some blu-ray discs are on 'the list'

What 'list'?

the list of officially unsupported blu ray discs (search 'list' on this page)

:eek:

also, no HDi capability, and no possibility of firmware update to get HDi capability

i'm waiting for the samsung BD-UP5000 (doesn't that just trip off the tongue? :rolleyes:) before considering buying a player

:) :apple:

PS I think the hardware manufacturers have slit their own throats (aided by Microsoft of course) because the next generation WILL be media-less and it will most likely be here and ready to go before the format wars are settled. boohoo ;)
 
Personally I think both sides are completely irrelevant. We are a DIGITAL world now, the future is neither of these formats or CD's for that matter, it's high definition digital downloads/streaming & home server digital storage/distribution ala AppleTV.

Apple set the standard for music, Joost and others are experimenting with high quality streaming of video and I'm sure Apple will come along soon and implement an elegant movie rental service.

Rooms stacked full of shiny plastic discs will soon feel anachronistic, if not already frankly.

Vanilla

In Europe we don't even have standard definition movie downloads. Just think how much longer it will take for studios to allow HD downloads. Plus I don't believe the internet in it's current state could support millions downloading gigabytes at a time.

So I think it will be a while before we see HD movie downloads on a big scale.
 
does anyone here honestly think that Apple would pick a formant and put it in their comps before a "winner" came out of this war???

no no no, they usually let a product go mainstream before adopting it so they don't end up with a flop (Intel chips anyone???)
 
Imho...

...shiny plastic disks will be around for quite some time. We own 3 DVD players, one for each TV, plus one in the car plus a laptop w/a HD that doesn't need Gigs of movies cluttering it up. A $9.99 Scooby Doo DVD can be popped into the minivan (>2 hour trips only) and then the hotel/summer house DVD player by a 7 year-old w/out needing connectivity or a harddrive. Then it can be forgotten for a year and resurrected with the only storage requirement being an empty place in a 48 disk carrier. (available for $20 -- how much would it cost to digitally store 48 movies? please make sure the storage device can be tossed in checked luggage)

Also, it can be shared or swapped with friends without DRM issues. Finally it can be donated to Goodwill. Or used as a frisbee.

[BTW - I'm not a Mennonite - we have 3 iPods, a DVR on each cable box and haven't hooked up a VCR in 4 years. I love digital storage but there's a lot to be said for physical media.]
 
HD Format War: No end in sight.

The war has been raging for more than 2 years .

Bad news for those of us sitting it out and waiting for a clear winner before investing in a HD library.

And just when I thought Blu-Ray was starting to take the lead. *sigh* This is getting ridiculous.
 
The war has been raging for
Bad news for those of us sitting it out and waiting for a clear winner before investing in a HD library.

The good news is that by the time there's a winner, prices will be reasonable.
 
Why do we need to change formats anyway? 8.6gb on a dual-layer DVD is plenty for HD video. At least 720p content in MKV. We need to be pushing more for PS3 owners to buy a Mac Mini instead and for anyone buying ether HD format to think hard and buy a computer instead. Get an Apple TV for god's sake. There's 720p out of the box.

There's some great HD content all over the internet, and with FiOS coming into it and high capacity DVDs, we really don't need a new format to integrate. 45 minutes of 720p video is about 1.1gb. So, about 5 and a half hours per Dual Layer DVD. Push that to 1080p and I'm sure you can get a movie on a disk. In fact, a 1080p x264 rip of Terminator 3 fits on a dual-layer DVD.

Why get $500+ equipment, when you can buy a Mac for that much?
 
Why do we need to change formats anyway? 8.6gb on a dual-layer DVD is plenty for HD video. At least 720p content in MKV. We need to be pushing more for PS3 owners to buy a Mac Mini instead and for anyone buying ether HD format to think hard and buy a computer instead. Get an Apple TV for god's sake. There's 720p out of the box.

There's some great HD content all over the internet, and with FiOS coming into it and high capacity DVDs, we really don't need a new format to integrate. 45 minutes of 720p video is about 1.1gb. So, about 5 and a half hours per Dual Layer DVD. Push that to 1080p and I'm sure you can get a movie on a disk. In fact, a 1080p x264 rip of Terminator 3 fits on a dual-layer DVD.

Why get $500+ equipment, when you can buy a Mac for that much?

That's a nice idea - and x/h.264 is a good codec for doing HD material - but it's still more compressed than home theater buffs would like - I mean, I shoot HDV pretty frequently, 8 hours is about 60 GB, or 7.5 GB an hour -- now, granted, that's less compressed than what HD-DVD and Blu-Ray use (though not by that much), but that's still far too much data to download - even with a FiOS connection. And frankly, FiOS isn't happening as fast as it would need to happen for a high-definition downstream solution to happen - we're just NOW getting to a point where most households have broadband...widespread FiOS availability/adoption is a long way of) - and selling consumers (even tech geeks like myself) on a download-only solution is difficult because hard drives fail, downloaded content, thus far, has had fewer extra features and crappier sound than what you get on disc - and hard drives fail. DVD rot or whatever is much less based in reality than it is in Internet rumors (and I say this as someone who has well over 1000 DVDs, some going back to 1999 - and they are all still playable) - so I think that while the ultimate disc-based winner might not be either HD or Blu-Ray, and it might not ultimately have the lifespan that VHS or DVD had (and every new technology has a shorter life than the technology that preceded it), I do think that people will be buying discs for a bit longer than Apple would like to think (who in their right mind would buy a movie off of iTunes? Like, great, I get sub-DVD quality, crappy sound and no extra features - thanks Apple!).

However, the real problem with codecs like h/x.264 and containers like mkv are that they will never be accepted by the industry. You have a handful of standalone DVD players that will play Xvid or 3ivx and maybe a few other codecs here and there, but none of the big players make them, and they won't -- at least not at this point in time.

I mean, I would love to live in a world where a plethora of legal, high quality high-definition content was available and most people had access to the bandwidth to download it. That just isn't the present scenario, sadly.
 
The good news is that by the time there's a winner, prices will be reasonable.

Priced any DVD-Audio or Super Audio CD players lately?

On that subject, I wish Apple had 192 kHz, 24-bit, 6 channel songs on iTunes. Even better if we got multi-tracks like Garage Band.
 
Long time lurker, delurking for this...

I personally don't think either format will win.

Some thoughts:

1) DVD isn't going anywhere
- The leap between VHS and DVD was huge in terms of convenience (no FF and RW - anyone here remember when you used to get charged a buck if you didn't RW your movies when you took them back) and perceptable quality.
- People literally have 100s of them (like myself) and aren't interested in replacing them for what is (to most people's eyes) a marginal perceptual improvement
- They are at a cheap price point (you can get a player at Walmart for $25)
- The vast majority of DVDs are played on SD sets.
- Most people won't notice a difference between DVD and HD (this is similar to why DVD-A and SACD failed: Joe Sixpack's ear and equipment couldn't perceive a difference).
- Case in point: I was an early HD TV adopter (2002) and an early DVD adopter (1998) but I have no interest in replacing my 800 DVDs with HD DVDs for what is a marginally increased perception in quality. Maybe if I had a 60+ inch screen I'd be thinking differently.
- HD's true glory is in replacing broadcast TV, where the difference is quite stark, not in replacing DVDs.
- The best-selling BR/HD-DVD discs are selling fractions of catalogue stuff on DVD.

2) Blu-Ray will likely win.
- According to Variety, most Hollywood types favour BR because of its superior capacity and thus superior quality (Why Spielberg's Par and DW stuff are still going to be BR).
- The deal was an 18 month exclusive and Par/DW was paid $150M (again, according to Variety). So nothing prevents them from going back to BR in the future after they've spent their $$$.
- Don't underestimate the PS3 advantage.


I have a DVD-A player and great home audio system that I wish I could buy more DVD-A discs. The richness and warmth of them (forget the 5.1, I'm talking just the high-resolution stereo) is amazing. But I spent a lot of years doing sound and running PA's, so I've got a well-tuned ear. Most of my friends can't tell the difference (and the eyes are a lot easier to trick than the ears). Thus it will be for HD vs. DVD as well, I believe. The average person out there just won't be able to see enough of a change to leap...
 
I've got two hours of unedited iMovie fodder on my HD now. Even after editing that's still going to be well over 3.7GB. I want to be able to burn that to a disc without compression. Screw 'Transformers', or whatever 2-D fun Friday night holds. :cool:
 
1) DVD isn't going anywhere
- People literally have 100s of them (like myself) and aren't interested in replacing them for what is (to most people's eyes) a marginal perceptual improvement

You don't have to replace them -- both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players will play your old DVDs and they will upscale them too. But I agree, if a person can't appreciate 1080p over NTSC, they're lost on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray over DVD.

- They are at a cheap price point (you can get a player at Walmart for $25)

I believe Toshiba has a $299 player. While they're not at the $25 price point yet, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray prices dropped faster than DVD players did. Trust me, I bought a $1000 Sony 7700. I think the first $300 DVD player was the Panasonic A110 and that took a few years.

- The vast majority of DVDs are played on SD sets.

But it's the past. SD sets are hidden in backrooms at electronics stores. Analog broadcasting is going to be cut off entirely in less than 18 months. Widescreen HD sets are all you see in the stores. SD is the past.

- Case in point: I was an early HD TV adopter (2002) and an early DVD adopter (1998) but I have no interest in replacing my 800 DVDs with HD DVDs for what is a marginally increased perception in quality. Maybe if I had a 60+ inch screen I'd be thinking differently.

Same here (RCA player in Feb. 1998). I will only "replace" a very select few favorites on DVD with HD versions. I will not replace everything. However, I will also not BUY any new DVDs unless unavailable in HD or if it's something that doesn't matter (e.g. Simpsons box sets). Why would I buy something like 300 on DVD if I can have it in high def? Now I do have a 61" 720p and 50" 1080p set.

- HD's true glory is in replacing broadcast TV, where the difference is quite stark, not in replacing DVDs.

While over-the-air HD is good, it's often encoded on-the-fly and suffers compression artifacts and fast motion artifacting. Same as with DVDs, video on disc is hand encoded and doesn't have to be CBR to fit in broadcast bandwidth. Not to mention, most people who even have the capability to record HDTV do so with a PVR, which have limited storage capacity. What if I want something permanently in my collection? Your argument is like saying digital video's glory should have been in replacing broadcast TV with DirecTV, not in replacing VHS.

- The best-selling BR/HD-DVD discs are selling fractions of catalogue stuff on DVD.

Not too long ago VHS people were saying that about DVD. I remember arguing against it in alt.video.dvd. Again, look at DVD sales 18 months after launch and you'll find both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are outpacing it. Not bad considering we're stuck in a format war.

2) Blu-Ray will likely win.
- According to Variety, most Hollywood types favour BR because of its superior capacity and thus superior quality (Why Spielberg's Par and DW stuff are still going to be BR).

The real reason is that Blu-Ray has a layer of encryption on top of AACS, which was already cracked.

I agree that Blu-Ray will, and should, win, despite my personal animosity towards Sony & Philips. A few weeks ago, the last hurdle was Universal. Now Microsoft's meddling has made it Universal, Paramount, and Dreamworks. Instead of winding down the war just heated up.

- The deal was an 18 month exclusive and Par/DW was paid $150M (again, according to Variety). So nothing prevents them from going back to BR in the future after they've spent their $$$.

Consumer electronics have 2-3 years of shelf space before they get swept aside as a failure if they don't catch on. As a DVD-A/SACD owner, you must know it. There was a time I could buy DVD-A/SACD in Best Buy. In 18 months, if the stalemate continues, neither format will matter.

- Don't underestimate the PS3 advantage.

Agreed, but PS3 is languishing because of its high price (largely due to the Blu-Ray drive) and lack of killer games.

I have a DVD-A player and great home audio system that I wish I could buy more DVD-A discs.

Agree with you here (I have a Pioneer combo SACD/DVD-A). But this is the best lesson as to why format wars suck. I haven't seen any new SACD-DVD-A releases because now nobody cares about either. Now they're footnotes in the disc format history. I hope HD-DVD and Blu-Ray don't end up in the same category.

Seeing that you're an audiophile, that's actually a great reason to adopt HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray that you don't seem to know about yet.

Both formats, once you get past the physical disc differences, are essentially identical aside from the interactivity layer -- they use the same audio and video codecs. One of the benefits of both is lossless audio -- Dolby True HD, DTS HD Master audio, and even raw PCM. I'm as excited about this as I am with the video. Lossless 24-bit sampling and 192 kHz range -- so the same quality you experienced with your DVD-A can now be applied to your movie soundtracks as well. Now getting the 6-channel analog inputs on my receiver for DVD-A/SACD paid off years later with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray.
 
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