Next Apple TV, HDMI 2.1, and Storage Functionality

[ToomeyND]

Edit at the beginning: I thought no apple products had HDMI 2.1. Apparently the Apple TV already does, however, it is not able to use most of the features that are part of the standard. The question below is more about how to best utilize the capability if streaming.

I'm starting to dabble in my understanding of HDMI 2.1. Sounds like it's just the beginning of this new future either with 8k resolution or 120 HZ at 4k. I understand that the current Apple TV can't output that. The next gen, however, might be capable of these resolutions or frame rates alongside HDMI 2.1

If that were the case, would it be reasonable to assume that Apple also includes some way to add external storage to Apple TV? I don't know how you can stream anything from a home network or even directly from Apple that would be able to pass along the data that is included at these resolutions. The only solution I can fathom at the moment is being able to attach an SSD to the Apple TV and perhaps make it the home hub. As of now, I stream movies through the "computers" app on Apple TV of movies I own. However, all of that is done through wifi, and even at 4k30 and below, there are hiccups.

What changes do you all expect and or think will be necessary for Apple TV to keep up with tech advances? Appreciate your thoughts.

 

[fwmireault]

I understand that the current Apple TV can't output that

What do you mean exactly? The latest Apple TV supports HDMI 2.1

 

[ToomeyND]

What do you mean exactly? The latest Apple TV supports HDMI 2.1

Honestly, I thought it didn't. I've read a lot of comments here in different threads stating that no apple products do yet.

With that being wrong, still the question remains, how would you best be able to stream movies at full output given the huge bandwidth requirements of the new formats? Unless the only solution going forward is having 1 (maybe 2) videos loaded on the Apple TV itself.

 

[ToomeyND]

What do you mean exactly? The latest Apple TV supports HDMI 2.1

After searching again, the only HDMI 2.1 feature that Apple TV supports (again, from my quick research) is eARC. The rest of the differentiating features of HDMI 2.1 do not seem to be supported (specifically the support for higher resolution or framerate video and I believe uncompressed Dolby Atmos).

 

[fwmireault]

After searching again, the only HDMI 2.1 feature that Apple TV supports (again, from my quick research) is eARC. The rest of the differentiating features of HDMI 2.1 do not seem to be supported (specifically the support for higher resolution or framerate video and I believe uncompressed Dolby Atmos).

Yeah I’ve found the same thing. The hardware is there, but there is an OS limitation that prevent 120hz for now. So maybe a future software update will unlock these features, but tvOS 15 would have been a perfect momentum for that, and it didn’t happen

 

[kiranmk2]

HDMI 2.1 is an absolute disaster of corporate marketing that is destined to confuse people and enable manufacturers to sell products that don't perform to the customer expectations.

Essentially the main benefit of 'HDMI 2.'1 is the increase in bandwidth from 18 Gpbs to 40-48 Gbps (depending on the chipset used). The outcome of this is that resolutions such as 4k120 with HDR are supported (10 bit colour at 40 Gbps and 12 bit colour at 48 Gbps). There were also a range of features introduced at the same time - these include ALLM, eARC, VRR, QMS. QFT.

The sensible thing to do would have been to mandate that anything labelled as HDMI 2.1 has to have the increased bandwidth and support all the features. However, what the HDMI forum decided to do in all their wisdom was to ban OEMs from saying their products have HDMI 2.1 or HDMI 2.1 ports and instead insist that they market HDMI 2.1 features. A lot of the 'HDMI 2.1 features' are actually backwards compatible with HDMI 2.0 (such as eARC and ALLM) so you get the farcical situation where products with HDMI 2.0 ports/bandwidth are allowed to confuse customers by throwing around HDMI 2.1 features (so long as they clearly indicate what those features are). Thus the AppleTV 4K is marketed as HDMI 2.1 with an asterick with the small print indicating that the HDMI 2.1 feature supported is eARC.

Thus it appears quite clear that the latest Apple TV 4K only has an HDMI 2.0 port/bandwidth with eARC as an HDMI 2.1 feature. The fact that Apple markets high frame rate HDR as being 4K60 HDR (which can be done with an HDMI 2.0/18 Gbps port) seems to confirm this.

It's like the debacle that is USB 3 and USB 4.

 

[BuddyRich]

One thing I can absolutely see, if they can't already do it, is support AV1 decoding in hardware (if not via software if the current SoCs don't support it). Its the codec of the future (supposedly).

I'd also like to see real passthrough for all audio formats. It doesn't have to decode or reencode them (though since they mix in system sounds they may insist on it, its why it doesnt passthrough now). LPCM 5.1 via eARC is good, and Atmos via Dolby MAT with a DD+ stream and ATMOS metadata from a streaming service is nice, but I would love it if Plex could just passthrough TrueHD ATMOS from a UHD rip to an AVR to decode.

And they need to support addition DV Profile 7 MEL and FEL streams.... and allow an API for 3rd party players to set the right Min and MaxCLL values for HDR. Right now its uses hardcoded 4000/1000 values which are defaults, and not the values from the video stream. Its not an issue when an App uses the default player so streaming services are affected but...

 

[w5jck]

Edit at the beginning: I thought no apple products had HDMI 2.1. Apparently the Apple TV already does, however, it is not able to use most of the features that are part of the standard. The question below is more about how to best utilize the capability if streaming.

I'm starting to dabble in my understanding of HDMI 2.1. Sounds like it's just the beginning of this new future either with 8k resolution or 120 HZ at 4k. I understand that the current Apple TV can't output that. The next gen, however, might be capable of these resolutions or frame rates alongside HDMI 2.1

If that were the case, would it be reasonable to assume that Apple also includes some way to add external storage to Apple TV? I don't know how you can stream anything from a home network or even directly from Apple that would be able to pass along the data that is included at these resolutions. The only solution I can fathom at the moment is being able to attach an SSD to the Apple TV and perhaps make it the home hub. As of now, I stream movies through the "computers" app on Apple TV of movies I own. However, all of that is done through wifi, and even at 4k30 and below, there are hiccups.

What changes do you all expect and or think will be necessary for Apple TV to keep up with tech advances? Appreciate your thoughts.

It took Apple 4 years to update from the ATV 4K 2017 model to the 2021 model. And that update wasn't that big. So don't expect much any time soon. I wouldn't expect external storage capability to be added either. Apple has a long history of making capable hardware but crippling it with incapable firmware and/or OS. Apple still seems to be treating the ATV like the stepchild they don't want. One thing you can likely count on is that Apple only has the ATV to sell their Apple TV+ service. As such they couldn't care less about giving us the ability to stream from our home networks. They didn't become a $2.5 trillion company by being nice and giving us a lot of extras, it was greed that got them there.

 

[goobot]

HDMI 2.1 is an absolute disaster of corporate marketing that is destined to confuse people and enable manufacturers to sell products that don't perform to the customer expectations.

Essentially the main benefit of 'HDMI 2.'1 is the increase in bandwidth from 18 Gpbs to 40-48 Gbps (depending on the chipset used). The outcome of this is that resolutions such as 4k120 with HDR are supported (10 bit colour at 40 Gbps and 12 bit colour at 48 Gbps). There were also a range of features introduced at the same time - these include ALLM, eARC, VRR, QMS. QFT.

The sensible thing to do would have been to mandate that anything labelled as HDMI 2.1 has to have the increased bandwidth and support all the features. However, what the HDMI forum decided to do in all their wisdom was to ban OEMs from saying their products have HDMI 2.1 or HDMI 2.1 ports and instead insist that they market HDMI 2.1 features. A lot of the 'HDMI 2.1 features' are actually backwards compatible with HDMI 2.0 (such as eARC and ALLM) so you get the farcical situation where products with HDMI 2.0 ports/bandwidth are allowed to confuse customers by throwing around HDMI 2.1 features (so long as they clearly indicate what those features are). Thus the AppleTV 4K is marketed as HDMI 2.1 with an asterick with the small print indicating that the HDMI 2.1 feature supported is eARC.

Thus it appears quite clear that the latest Apple TV 4K only has an HDMI 2.0 port/bandwidth with eARC as an HDMI 2.1 feature. The fact that Apple markets high frame rate HDR as being 4K60 HDR (which can be done with an HDMI 2.0/18 Gbps port) seems to confirm this.

It's like the debacle that is USB 3 and USB 4.

So does that mean I would need a hdmi 2.1 for my 6th gen Apple TV to fully utilize it even for only one hdmi 2.1 feature?

 

[nutmac]

So does that mean I would need a hdmi 2.1 for my 6th gen Apple TV to fully utilize it even for only one hdmi 2.1 feature?

Apple TV 4K (2nd gen) doesn't really have HDMI 2.1. Its sole HDMI 2.1 feature is eARC, which can be rolled into HDMI 2.0. HDMI 2.1 features that most people would value, such as 4K at 120 Hz, gaming oriented features (e.g., VRR, ALLM, QFT), and home theater oriented features (e.g., QMS, SBTM), are missing and not possible with the current Apple TV 4K hardware.

 

[goobot]

Apple TV 4K (2nd gen) doesn't really have HDMI 2.1. Its sole HDMI 2.1 feature is eARC, which can be rolled into HDMI 2.0. HDMI 2.1 features that most people would value, such as 4K at 120 Hz, gaming oriented features (e.g., VRR, ALLM, QFT), and home theater oriented features (e.g., QMS, SBTM), are missing and not possible with the current Apple TV 4K hardware.

I see, so if I buy a hdmi 2.0 cable eARC would still work correct?

 

[priitv8]

I see, so if I buy a hdmi 2.0 cable eARC would still work correct?

Doesn't need to be HDMI2.0 cable. Any HDMI with Ethernet cable shall do.
Source: https://www.hdmi.org/spec21sub/enhancedaudioreturnchannel

 

[Audit13]

I see, so if I buy a hdmi 2.0 cable eARC would still work correct?

Yes, and you need a TV that supports eARC.

 

[nutmac]

I see, so if I buy a hdmi 2.0 cable eARC would still work correct?

For Apple TV 4K (2nd gen), 2 types of cables will work:

48 Gbps (Ultra High Speed): If you are buying a new cable, this is the cable to buy. It doesn't cost significantly more than the next cheapest kind (less than $5 premium, unless you need a very long cable), and you will be able to avoid any confusion when reusing this cable with other devices. This cable is required when outputting 4K 120 frames per second or 8K, neither of which Apple TV 4K (2nd gen) is capable of.

18 Gbps (Premium High Speed with Ethernet): If you have one of these cables already, go ahead and use it. Apple TV 4K (2nd gen) maxes out at 4K Dolby Vision 4:4:4 60 frames per second. Even with DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD, neither of which are currently supported by tvOS, Apple TV won't exceed 18 Gbps.

 

[ToomeyND]

I appreciate this conversation. However, my question was also on taking advantage of this tech. How do people recommend a configuration that sends a 4k 120 fps video TO the Apple TV that would then send the same data to the tv via HDMI 2.1.

 

[Audit13]

I appreciate this conversation. However, my question was also on taking advantage of this tech. How do people recommend a configuration that sends a 4k 120 fps video TO the Apple TV that would then send the same data to the tv via HDMI 2.1.

Do you have a source for 4k 120 FPS that can be played using the ATV?

 

[ToomeyND]

Do you have a source for 4k 120 FPS that can be played using the ATV?

Not at the moment. I'm thinking about the future. If two conditions are met: 1. I have 4k 120 fps video and 2. a future Apple TV can play said video, how would I go about transferring said video from my laptop, as an example, to the Apple TV?

 

[Audit13]

Not at the moment. I'm thinking about the future. If two conditions are met: 1. I have 4k 120 fps video and 2. a future Apple TV can play said video, how would I go about transferring said video from my laptop, as an example, to the Apple TV?

You use Plex or Infuse as long as either app will support 4k/120.

I assume your TV also supports 4k/120.

 

[ToomeyND]

You use Plex or Infuse as long as either app will support 4k/120.

I assume your TV also supports 4k/120.

So a wifi connection will be enough to handle this bandwidth?

 

[Audit13]

So a wifi connection will be enough to handle this bandwidth?

Yes, as long as all of the equipment in the playback chain is fast enough over WiFi.

 

[ToomeyND]

Yes, as long as all of the equipment in the playback chain is fast enough over WiFi.

Thanks for this. I am surprised by the answer tho. I have issue playing some 4k movies at 60 fps that I have on my laptop in the tv app that my Apple TV buffers (when using the "Computers" app on Apple TV). I have a wifi 6 setup, and the Apple TV is plugged into the router via ethernet. But, sounds like something for me to figure out on my own.

 

[Audit13]

Thanks for this. I am surprised by the answer tho. I have issue playing some 4k movies at 60 fps that I have on my laptop in the tv app that my Apple TV buffers (when using the "Computers" app on Apple TV). I have a wifi 6 setup, and the Apple TV is plugged into the router via ethernet. But, sounds like something for me to figure out on my own.

I rip my 4k discs 1:1 to a QNAP NAS. The QNAP is connected to my router via Ethernet and the Apple TV is connected via WiFi. I can play my 4k 60 rip of Gemini Man over WiFi with no issues. I can't test streaming with the QNAP connected via WiFi since it only supports a wired connection.