nMP and CUDA, a discussion.

Discussion in 'Mac Pro' started by prfrma, Dec 22, 2013.

  1. prfrma macrumors regular

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    May 29, 2010
    #1
    So, it's launched, it's handling FCP pretty well an appears to have a few decent benchmarks. It's not the reincarnation of the dual socket monster we all wanted but it would have been an easier pill to swallow if the workflow disruption caused by no CUDA compatible GPU options wasn't the case.

    Who will jump first? Will Adobe and others who currently offer CUDA accelerated rendering jump first and switch to OpenCL? Or are Apple working on providing Nvidia options with the next generation of Quadro cards?

    I guess using thunderbolt with a GPU enclosure is a possibility, but what a faff...

    Which OpenCL render engines use OpenCL with multiple GPU support?

    If I wanted to use Arnold, why not just get a dual socket PC in stead?

    Maddening.
    :(
     
  2. Pressure, Dec 22, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013

    Pressure macrumors 68040

    Pressure

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    #2
    I suppose you haven't been following Adobe that closely, let alone their blog.

    They are currently working on replacing CUDA entirely with OpenCL in the Adobe CC suite.

    Currently, as far as I know, only Compressor 4 is fully compatible with OpenCL.

    Update: Just to clarify, both Photoshop and Premiere Pro already supports OpenCL.
     
  3. ZnU macrumors regular

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    May 24, 2006
    #3
    DaVinci Resolve 10 also enhances OpenCL support (which started showing up in 9, if I recall correctly) to the point where it's on equal footing with CUDA.
     
  4. flat five macrumors 601

    flat five

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    #4
    apple has fairly clearly said to developers--
    "if you want to write for our platform, use openCL instead of cuda"

    do you think there are any developers out there who are wishing to continue selling a mac program that are trying to make any cuda based enhancements for the platform?

    for all intents and purposes, cuda is dead on mac.. as in-- if you want cuda based gpgpu, leave mac now..
     
  5. jasonvp macrumors 6502a

    jasonvp

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    #5
    To clarify: Premiere 100% supports OpenCL for everything and anything it can do with CUDA. And the CC version of Premiere adds support for multiple GPUs, something not seen before with it. CC also adds support for OpenCL on Windows; prior to that (CS6), OpenCL support was only available in OS X.
     
  6. PuppiesCakePizz macrumors newbie

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    Dec 21, 2013
    #6
    Worth pointing out iMac has GTX 775...not to mention bootcamp.

    Speaking from personal experience, lots of people need Cuda and use macs just fine. OpenCL is forward thinking, but cuda is right now.

    That said, nMP is pretty handicapped with lack of nvidia. Interesting also seeing the imac with a 775M go toe to toe / outperform the dual firepro (7970?) nMP in a variety of tests. The excuse people are giving? Lack of driver support! Oh the irony..

    http://www.nvidia.com/object/mac-driver-archive.html

    ^ dead..?
     
  7. derbothaus macrumors 601

    derbothaus

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    #7
    I have never seen the mercury playback engine work in CS6 on a Mac running AMD cards. Please explain. It does not work and is the reason Nvidia is preferred at this time and before enterprise takes the hugely expensive CC experiment head on.
     
  8. iSee macrumors 68040

    iSee

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    #8
    OpenCL vs. CUDA

    Short-term (say, a 2-3,4 year timeframe) there will be some pain and tradeoffs.
    But long term for GPGPU, I think OpenCL will flourish and CUDA will die.

    OpenCL works for CPU cores, non-nVidia GPUs, and is a better position to support potential future, difficult-to-predict paths to more computational power... (let's see, I'll make up a term here: XPUs)

    I just can't see why any rational software developer would invest in CUDA over OpenCL unless nVidia was sending over wheelbarrows of cash to tip the scales.

    The only way I see CUDA surviving is by essentially becoming OpenCL (e.g., nVidia opens licensing, starts supporting CPU, etc.) But my guess is they'll simply press their short-term advantage while it lasts... Get while the Gettn's good.

    However, if I'm investing in workstations and related information systems today I think you'd be a sucker to bet on future software releases: If workable OpenCL solutions exist in your domain now (not necessarily comparable to the CUDA options but close enough for your uses), you can invest in OpenCL with confidence. If not, I'd have to go for CUDA with the understanding that I may need to retool yet again. If I'm a Mac shop that would prefer not to change but OpenCL isn't currently an option for the tools I use, I'd do whatever I could to delay, delay, delay in the hopes of getting more clarity.

    In general, the new Mac Pro looks like Apple's bet on a future direction for workstations. Apple has a pretty good track record in predicting (if not setting) the future direction of various tech segments. But as the potential customer of the new Mac Pro, you're probably more interested in what you need to get done today or in the next few months. Today, buy tools for today. Buy tools for tomorrow... tomorrow.
     
  9. jasonvp macrumors 6502a

    jasonvp

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    #9
    It works just fine on OS X. There's an OpenCL supported text file in the same place the CUDA supported text file exists. Delete said file, or add the exact GPU you're using into it (I always found deleting the file to be easier) and voila: Acceleration.
     
  10. derbothaus macrumors 601

    derbothaus

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    #10
    Well... crap. 10.7 or later may be why I am thinking this. Thanks for the info.
    What about AE?
     
  11. flat five macrumors 601

    flat five

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    #11
    equally worth pointing out that openCL runs on nvidia gpus


    cuda was was up until ~6months ago.. from that point on, it's highly unlikely developers keep coding cuda on os x other than finishing up something they were already far along in -or- just porting over improvements from windows versions..

    no it's not.. just take a wild stab at how many mac pro users are going to be affected by no nvidia.. surely it's a fraction of one percent, right?

    the imac is going to be outperforming the nmp in the cpu realm as well in certain tests.. understand the tests- understand your requirements.. and pick the right computer.

    10 updates in 2012.. 5 in 2013

    but besides, nvidia can't really be used as the example because it's their property..
    quote me the developer who has said "yes, we are going to continue along our osxcuda roadmap" after wwdc2013..
     
  12. Cubemmal macrumors 6502a

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    Jun 13, 2013
    #12
    Apple will never support a proprietary standard like CUDA when they have OpenCL.
     
  13. PuppiesCakePizz, Dec 22, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2013

    PuppiesCakePizz macrumors newbie

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    Dec 21, 2013
    #13
    Uh why?? iMacs and Macbooks have had ongoing nvidia cards. Why did the support for cuda suddenly end 6 months ago?

    Right, interesting way to look at it. So a 'pro' computer which does not really currently support a heck of a lot of pro software is not handicapped by this fact because supposedly a fraction of a percent of the users are apparently using pro software. So is the new 'mac pro' in actuality a hobbyist machine to your mind?

    I understand them.

    I should clarify one point, I'm not saying this looking one year down the road, I'm saying right now. Obviously Nvidia also supports OpenCL so that's not a concern. The point is right now and probably for the next year having a nMP without nvidia is very limiting.
     
  14. flat five macrumors 601

    flat five

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    #14
    is that a serious question? do you really not understand what i've said up there? i mean, it's totally fine for you to disagree with me but you have to at least understand what i'm saying first.



    huh? is that really what you think i'm saying?
    or is this just one of those sweet interweb arguments where it doesn't matter what anybody says? i mean, i'll join you for the fun of it but it's going to be more along the lines of me taking stabs at you..


    cool.. then why all the surprise/irony by seeing the imac going toe-to-toe etcetec?
     
  15. jasonvp macrumors 6502a

    jasonvp

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    #15
    In this instance, it should be a concern. Either through Apple or nVidia's doing, the OpenCL performance on the vast majority of (even expensive) nVidia rigs is... lacking. Could this change with optimized drivers? Perhaps. But who would write them? Apple or nVidia? The latter certainly has no real reason to do so until they come to the conclusion that they're wasting their time with CUDA.

    So that leaves Apple...
     
  16. prfrma thread starter macrumors regular

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    #16
    Meanwhile AMD's diver support for OpenCL is...

    :(
     
  17. PuppiesCakePizz macrumors newbie

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    Dec 21, 2013
    #17
    Sure, but that's not a huge issue ...yet. At the point at which it becomes one nvidia will have likely stepped up OpenCL performance. And if not easy enough to swap to amds latest.

    At which point those 7970s in the nMP will be begging for an upgrade anyway.
     
  18. goMac macrumors 603

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    Apr 15, 2004
    #18
    It's Nvidia. I believe the CUDA performance isn't so great on the current cards either. The thinking is that Nvidia threw GPGPU performance under the bus for the GeForce line to boost their OpenGL performance.

    Apple never supported CUDA.

    They included Nvidia cards for OpenCL and OpenGL, but they never officially supported CUDA on those cards.

    Nvidia, entirely independently of Apple, made a CUDA driver available, but it was never Apple endorsed.
     
  19. Rich.Cohen macrumors regular

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    Washington DC
    #19
    Does CS6 support OpenCL?
     
  20. Quu macrumors 68020

    Quu

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    Apr 2, 2007
    #20
    CUDA will die off eventually and OpenCL will become the mainstay. That is my opinion as someone that has bought 10 NVIDIA GPU's and only 1 ATi/AMD GPU in the past decade.

    It's just really obvious I think because OpenCL runs everywhere and CUDA only runs on NVIDIA cards. Any software development tool advantage that CUDA presents will be wiped out by market penetration of OpenCL compatible hardware.

    I mean literally you can be on 16.1% or so of GPU's with CUDA (roughly NVIDIA's share including Intels IGP's) or you can be on 100% with OpenCL. When presented with that kind of penetration it's just too logical not to use OpenCL over CUDA.

    Btw if anyone is wondering here is the marketshare breakdown:

    NVIDIA: 16.1%
    AMD: 21.9%
    Intel: 62.0%

    That is including add-in cards and integrated chips such as the ones in Intels Haswell CPU's and AMD's APU's but it is for Desktop and Notebook chips only, not smart phones or ARM based tablets.

    I give NVIDIA 3 years at most with CUDA before they throw in the towel and go full speed in to OpenCL with 3rd party development tools and much better performance than what they offer now on the OpenCL side.
     
  21. jasonvp macrumors 6502a

    jasonvp

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    #21
    Premiere Pro CS6 on OS X does indeed support OpenCL. It does not under Windows.
     
  22. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

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    Aug 5, 2010
    #22
    Fixed it for you:D.

    I really suspect it will be a long time before they deprecate CUDA support in AE. In some cases developers have added OpenCL support for Macs only or for Macs before Windows and Linux, but it often seems to come with a reduced feature set. That was the case with Davinci Resolve, not that I get to use the full version.
     
  23. riggles macrumors 6502

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    Dec 2, 2013
    #23
    Personally, I think the adoption of OpenCL hinges on two things: software developers and AMD drivers. These are bigger factors than better performance vs CUDA. Video production is just one segment of the market that is starting to adopt OpenCL (mostly thanks to Adobe and Apple). But there are other markets, 3D for instance.

    If you look at the GPU rendering landscape in the world of 3D, CUDA has a significant advantage/lead. Octane, iRay, Arion, Redshift, Bunkspeed … these are all CUDA only. These developers have to have a real reason to either stop developing on CUDA, or split their efforts to support and advance both. I think they can be motivated, but why didn't they start with OpenCL earlier. Well, some have, and they've said two things held them back: OpenCL functionality and AMDs OpenCL drivers. In fact, Vray RT does actually support OpenCL unofficially, but even then only on NVIDIA's OpenCL drivers. To me that says something.

    AMD needs to up their driver game for it too succeed.
     
  24. prfrma thread starter macrumors regular

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    May 29, 2010
    #24
    qft

    Further more, know one really knows if AMD has any hands on control with these property amd GPU's.
     
  25. flat five macrumors 601

    flat five

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    newyorkcity
    #25
    an interesting little chain of events via Martin Wengenmayer-- developer of cheetah 3d
    http://www.cheetah3d.com

    neat seeing a dev go from 'wtf apple?!' to "sweet!"
    ;)


    june 22-- nmp is announced



    december 19-- nmp available



    december 20


    http://www.cheetah3d.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9670






    ----------

    haha.. i missed this when you first posted it.
    :)
     

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