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No 64bit for Photoshop CS4 on OS X
- Thread starter sosumi1981
- Start date
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I am not sure if I can agree, for my part and some of my colleages here (I am a photographer), it is really quite normal to work with images as heavy as 2 GB or even more.
As Photoshop needs something like 4 times the memory corresponding to the image size, i would be very happy if Photoshop could adress the 16 GB of my Macpro directly.
Wow there's a lot of hateing on Adobe
... and completely misplaced in my estimation.
Adobe and Apple have, of course, had a long history together that's been good for both of them. But what is Apple doing to help Adobe sell copies of OSX/CS3/4/5?
If AAPL wanted, they could find the means to support Carbon64 as they had planned in the $40 billion cash they've got in the bank. Developers had be counting on it up until recently. Lots of programs that people know and love have happily used that library (including lots of Apple programs!). If Apple wants to pull the rug out from under them, that's their prerogative (although it reminds me of other software companies that both encourage and beat up on their ISVs). From my point of view, ISVs need to assess the viability of writing and trying to sell software against a company that controls the operating system and is publishing titles to compete with you ... well, again we've seen this movie before in other places.
Suppose I'm a graphic professional with a limited budget. I can buy a very nice graphic desktop with 4-8GB RAM, high end 2-4 core CPUs, really nice disk space and a 24" 8-bit monitor for under $1500. Apples only option, the thing that needs to be around for Adobe to sell their software and make some money off of the work they put into the OSX version starts at $3k. All I have to do is put up with windoze. But if what I care about is getting my job done in CS3, working with it in windoze and OS X is not very different. It's very easy to move from one to the other and back again. Companies even make shell rewrites of that dog-butt-ugly interface to make it palatable.
As to moving from CS3 to alternatives ... right. The whole community with it's support, hints, books, training, exchange systems is deeply ingrained and essential to productivity and ramping up new talent. The Cult of Apple (the same folks that believed the Steve-job of the pentium-crushing performance of the G4) will, of course happily move into the vertical apple-only ecosystem, but the less religious are going to do what's practical.
Don't get me wrong, I admire a great deal about Apple, particularly the design and quality of their systems. But a huge problem is the unfriendliness to ISVs (commercial and Open Source) on all their platforms including the iPhone & iTunes (FLAC!). Google for articles describing game developers' many many disappointments and halting promises from Apple for more perspectives on that. Another is missing product categories; where is my $1k Apple with 2-4 cores, 2-4 drive bays, a few expansion slots, my choice of monitor, and 8GB of RAM capacity?
... and completely misplaced in my estimation.
Adobe and Apple have, of course, had a long history together that's been good for both of them. But what is Apple doing to help Adobe sell copies of OSX/CS3/4/5?
If AAPL wanted, they could find the means to support Carbon64 as they had planned in the $40 billion cash they've got in the bank. Developers had be counting on it up until recently. Lots of programs that people know and love have happily used that library (including lots of Apple programs!). If Apple wants to pull the rug out from under them, that's their prerogative (although it reminds me of other software companies that both encourage and beat up on their ISVs). From my point of view, ISVs need to assess the viability of writing and trying to sell software against a company that controls the operating system and is publishing titles to compete with you ... well, again we've seen this movie before in other places.
Suppose I'm a graphic professional with a limited budget. I can buy a very nice graphic desktop with 4-8GB RAM, high end 2-4 core CPUs, really nice disk space and a 24" 8-bit monitor for under $1500. Apples only option, the thing that needs to be around for Adobe to sell their software and make some money off of the work they put into the OSX version starts at $3k. All I have to do is put up with windoze. But if what I care about is getting my job done in CS3, working with it in windoze and OS X is not very different. It's very easy to move from one to the other and back again. Companies even make shell rewrites of that dog-butt-ugly interface to make it palatable.
As to moving from CS3 to alternatives ... right. The whole community with it's support, hints, books, training, exchange systems is deeply ingrained and essential to productivity and ramping up new talent. The Cult of Apple (the same folks that believed the Steve-job of the pentium-crushing performance of the G4) will, of course happily move into the vertical apple-only ecosystem, but the less religious are going to do what's practical.
Don't get me wrong, I admire a great deal about Apple, particularly the design and quality of their systems. But a huge problem is the unfriendliness to ISVs (commercial and Open Source) on all their platforms including the iPhone & iTunes (FLAC!). Google for articles describing game developers' many many disappointments and halting promises from Apple for more perspectives on that. Another is missing product categories; where is my $1k Apple with 2-4 cores, 2-4 drive bays, a few expansion slots, my choice of monitor, and 8GB of RAM capacity?
And tell me how exactly you will utilize that 64-bit technology? You won't.Thanks God i'm not using a Mac anymore...
Well, it seems, it was really a great idea, that i finally sold my old PowerMac G5
I noticed that this was your first ever post and I have to admit that it's a good one. You wrote a detailed account and made some good points. Well done and welcome.
(Some of the more frequent users should take note.)Yeah, as people have said the two programs are supposed to be virtually the same on either platform. So taking into account Bootcamp, and to a lesser extent, Parallels or Fusion, exisiting Mac users could do large image specific work in Windows and then switch back to Mac OS for most of the time. If they really wanted to and they didn't mind paying for an extra licence.
Personally, any fanboy bashing is always good to see! (Of course fanboys do exist on both platforms.)
It'll be coming soon my friend, along with the 13" MacBook Pro. As soon as that first pig passes his private pilot's licence ... any day now ... "Come on Porky!"
I think Adobe has completely "lost it's way" in terms of knowing what to do, what will sell, what it's customers actually want, and even who it's customers are.
It's painfully obvious that this is the case and that it's a company-wide problem...
Amen to that.
My Adobe Attitude story happened recently when I looked at upgrading my software to CS3.
Currently, I own all of the Apps in one of the CS3 Suites. However, these were purchased before CS Suites existed, so they're individual licences.
In inquiring if I was eligible for the CS3 Suite upgrade price (since I owned copies of all of that Suite's Apps), I was told NO.
Adobe's bottom line is that because I don't have an official CS Suite license#, I'm not eligible for the CS3 Suite upgrade price.
Adobe isn't sensitive to the fact (or doesn't care) that because I bought Individual licences, I've already paid them more than their bundle sells for.
So apparently, because I've been a faithful longtime customer who has alreadly paid more upfront, Adobe expects me to be happy to pay twice as much as their "Johnny-come-lately" CS3 suite customers to keep my "its a CS3 Suite in everything but Licence#" Adobe Apps updated.
Because...well - see above. The harsh reality is that Adobe has changed the names of their 'bundles' over the years and they're choosing to not provide any cost-effective upgrade transitions between them...
What they've done is dangle nearly "free" copies of the other Adobe Apps (that you don't have much use for), and you then every 18-24 months when Adobe rolls out another upgrade, you have a temptation to upgrade them all instead of just the one or two you really use.
With Adobe's repackaging-under-a-new-name (now CS "Suites"), you end up in the situation that I'm in, where my upgrade cost is DOUBLE.
Since an upgrade was a "nice to have" and not a "must have" for me, instead of getting $400 from me for the CS3 Suite upgrade, Adobe is instead getting Shinola.
-hh
From friends I know in the gaming industry (one is a founder of Neversoft) they don't use any MACS, so that absolutely backs up your statement (without all it's vitriol) about heavy 3D apps.
However, when you say "artists" maybe your statement isn't quite as sound. Most of the artists, photographers, and graphic designers I know use MACS. Apple stores in NYC are filled with professionals - myself included - as well as every other level of consumer. When you call posters "fanboys" and make sweeping and absurd assertions, you sound exactly like what you hate in other people's posts. Oh, and congratulations on that Oscar!
ok so as 'artists' lets say a graphic designer / layout artist / photographer
my 'fanboy' feelings wear real thin when apple feels entitled to lock us into (on a system level ) using their crappy screen display version of Helvetica.
ask a true professional how they feel about this, how it affects all their previous work done with say linotype or adobe fonts helvetica.
why must i hack my system to use helvetica lol
this thread is about the fact apple in public promised 64bit carbon then did a 180 turn that screwed a lot of developers, hence 32 bit photoshop.
actually my fanboy feelings wore thin when i had to deal with the highly pretentious and technically ignorant customer service at the apple store. I agree it is just full of students both the staff and customers.
apple should be praying that adobe doesnt release CS4 for linux as lot of agencies would change
my 'fanboy' feelings wear real thin when apple feels entitled to lock us into (on a system level ) using their crappy screen display version of Helvetica.
ask a true professional how they feel about this, how it affects all their previous work done with say linotype or adobe fonts helvetica.
why must i hack my system to use helvetica lol
this thread is about the fact apple in public promised 64bit carbon then did a 180 turn that screwed a lot of developers, hence 32 bit photoshop.
actually my fanboy feelings wore thin when i had to deal with the highly pretentious and technically ignorant customer service at the apple store. I agree it is just full of students both the staff and customers.
apple should be praying that adobe doesnt release CS4 for linux as lot of agencies would change
From friends I know in the gaming industry (one is a founder of Neversoft) they don't use any MACS, so that absolutely backs up your statement (without all it's vitriol) about heavy 3D apps.
However, when you say "artists" maybe your statement isn't quite as sound. Most of the artists, photographers, and graphic designers I know use MACS. Apple stores in NYC are filled with professionals - myself included - as well as every other level of consumer. When you call posters "fanboys" and make sweeping and absurd assertions, you sound exactly like what you hate in other people's posts. Oh, and congratulations on that Oscar!
Considering most major 3D Modeling environments are targeted for Windows it's not a stretch that Macs are the standard system. Linux has more support for various 3D Modeling/NURBS/ProEngineer/SolidWorks, etc. because let's face it, before the Intel transition companies were selling these solutions as multi-boot solutions and now with Virtualization are trying to stretch the buck even farther.
Don't quite understand your post as it's worded. How are are MACS the standard system for 3D modeling when you stated that the programs are targeted for Windows?
Okay, what Apple store do you go to where everyone is just a student (not that being a student is a bad thing IMO)? And what have you accomplished in YOUR professional life to be so condescending to people that shop there?
going to the apple store is like watching 'kids did it' lol.. anyone over 30 that has been to one of the manhattan stores will be able to relate.
i was not being 'condescending' i just dont like a company like apple telling me what version of helvetica to use,, if that offends you i dont care sorry... and all those billions of profit and they cant spare the resources to make carbon 64bit, like yay they deserve a star.
i have worked for some of the biggest brands in the world including Pepsi, BBC Television, Nokia, Philips, British Airways, Qantas, Versace, Escada, Jones New York, Rothmans of Pall Mall i could go on but i wouldnt want to appear condescending lol.
wtf kind of comment and who the hell are you ?? a wannabe mod, blind fanboy or frustrated youth ?
why are you so hostile to professional opinions, lol,
you are so serious in your attack it had us all in laughter here , thanks
It's easy to see who I am and what I've done. I'm on this site because I like using MACS and they've helped me with my work. Simple. Sorry that that drives you to calling me names.
dude this is hilarious.
you think i'm im calling you names because you like apple,
not at all true, and why would i hate you because of apple ? this is a mac forum..
i've had as many macs as the next guy, stop assuming that your the only one with experience here.
it is because you suggested that i had no professional experience, and implied that without any knowledge of me. you then wrongly assumed that my post and opinion where condescending because of my feelings on the leopard vs helvetica issue.
if you going to call someone condescending and insult them, well, you better be sure of your facts first . simple.
this is too funny.
dont be so serious dude
dude this is hilarious.
you think i'm im calling you names because you like apple,
not at all true, and why would i hate you because of apple ? this is a mac forum..
i've had as many macs as the next guy, stop assuming that your the only one with experience here.
it is because you suggested that i had no professional experience, and implied that without any knowledge of me. you then wrongly assumed that my post and opinion where condescending because of my feelings on the leopard vs helvetica issue.
if you going to call someone condescending and insult them, well, you better be sure of your facts first . simple.
this is too funny.
dont be so serious dude
What I reacted to was your dismissing everyone that goes into an Apple store as a "student" and throwing the word "fanboy" around. Period. It wasn't because of the "leopard vs helvetica issue" and I never posted about that. I'm still using 10.4.11 and I don't have enough HD on my PB for my entire Adobe Font Library! As for finding out what I do, that wasn't condescending, one of my sites is posted right below.
I know so many people in the Ad/design world in NYC - would love to know who you work for. Got to get back to work. Later "dude".
Current Apple Cocoa Apps
I just want to clarify that most of Apples Pro apps are indeed already cocoa:
Aperture 2 - Cocoa
Logic 8 - Cocoa
Mainstage - Cocoa
DVD Studio - Cocoa
Soundtrack Pro - Cocoa
Motion - Cocoa
Only Final Cut Pro is Carbon - and expect that to change in the near future.
Shake is no longer developed and will be replaced by "code name Phenomenon".
Also all of iLife and iWork, except iTunes.
Actually Apple only have 3 notable apps left in Carbon: iTunes, Finder and FCP.
I just want to clarify that most of Apples Pro apps are indeed already cocoa:
Aperture 2 - Cocoa
Logic 8 - Cocoa
Mainstage - Cocoa
DVD Studio - Cocoa
Soundtrack Pro - Cocoa
Motion - Cocoa
Only Final Cut Pro is Carbon - and expect that to change in the near future.
Shake is no longer developed and will be replaced by "code name Phenomenon".
Also all of iLife and iWork, except iTunes.
Actually Apple only have 3 notable apps left in Carbon: iTunes, Finder and FCP.
In fairness... one person said that Cocoa requires the use of Objective-C. That's patently false... you can write your code in C++, Java, or Objective-C and wrap it in an interface created in Interfacebuilder.
As far as the interface not working with Windows, that is also false as well. The technologies behind Cocoa date back to NeXTStep/OpenStep. Back in the day, when NeXT quit selling hardware and became a software company... the idea behind many of NeXT's technologies was to create a portable API set that could run on various platforms/machines and even run as a sort of transparent virtual machine with no performance impact. That API set is now what many of us refer to as "Cocoa".
That API-set was used to create many applications that ran on OpenStep for NeXT hardware, OpenStep for x86 (Intel), and... OpenStep for Windows. Yeah, you heard me right... WINDOWS. If you ask the developers behind OmniWeb, the former developers of TIFFany, or the creator of Stone Design's various apps. that have a history dating back to OpenStep and NeXTStep respectively about it... many of them had applications designed to run in OpenStep for Windows. The applications looked just like any other Windows application straight down to taking on the Windows-esque menu built into each window and using an "Exit" menu item vs. "Quit" from the File Menu. They also performed just like any other Windows application. Yet, the API's for compatibility were included in the installer and much of the technologies involved were OpenStep-centric. With the way Cocoa was created and the Cocoa compilers were devised back then, one set of code could be compiled to run anywhere on various platforms back then. Even Sun's SPARC hardware.
It is my belief that Safari for Windows is, in fact, a Cocoa application using this technology. The fact it includes calls to some "Core technologies" makes me think that there's Mac core API's included in the installer so that the application can run on the Windows platform from "one codebase" rather than force Apple to develop separately for both. With the move to Intel, writing hardware specific code can pay dividends since they both leverage x86 and will both support x64 (in the future) and can optimize to the same hardware platform. Yet, I also think Apple used an "override" with Safari in terms of interface by modifying it to look more like a Mac application to give it a sort of "sexy in a sea of abyss" feel, as the browser for better or worse... stands out amongst the Windows GUI and in some ways feels a bit alien to the overall user experience. This, in effect, would be a further evolution of what has been a part of the NeXT product line since the early days and what tilted Gilbert Amelio to purchase NeXT (and get ousted by Jobs' efforts) vs. buying Be Inc. from Jean-Louis Gassee if it indeed is true.
The only thing missing for Adobe to write one version of Photoshop and run it everywhere is for Apple to renew their intentions by making a Cocoa for Windows, putting the license out there, deploying a Cocoa API set on Windows (which oddly enough, could be spread like a Trojan horse of sorts for Mac developers to jump on Windows and take market simply by using Apple's Safari/iTunes initiative to make the API's omnipresent). When Rhapsody was first announced, it was Apple's intentions to do just (they pushed the developer tools which were to be available for free and be powerful, capable of writing for Mac and Windows simultaneously) that and at that time due to the sheer monumental task that was and the lackluster Mac sales... it wasn't palatable, which is why Rhapsody evolved into what we now know as OS X with the Cocoa/Carbon tandem rolled in, but much as Apple carried Classic as a legacy piece... so is Carbon apparently a near-term means to an end solution to get people to stick around long enough for Apple to build marketshare and right the ship.
Do I expect them to release OS X for Windows much as there was OpenStep for Windows? I doubt there will ever be a public release simply because... my gut tells me that Apple might very well be readying their own Photoshop killer at this very moment. If anyone would use or leverage this technology, I think Apple would prefer to write one bit of code to run on both to obtain key advantages over what Adobe would gain in writing for both with one codebase. After all, if Adobe has to maintain 2 codebases with 2x's the programmers, imagine what Apple could achieve maintaining one codebase and writing one piece of code that works on both? They could spend the time adding 2x's the features in and/or optimizing the API's performance in Windows with the intents of making an application that is the standard whether it's an Apple app. or Windows .exe. There are some PC users that'll never switch, that doesn't mean that they'll never choose the better, more powerful, more feature-rich, or more capable mouse trap... even if it's written by us "Evil Apple" people. That's an additional revenue stream for Apple, like it or not... and a revenue stream that they wouldn't necessarily even have to do much to, to gain from. After all, if that wasn't true... how many Mac users are there out there keeping Office alive for Microsoft on the Mac? With the Mac's growing marketshare, the platform's relavence is not to be denied, and you can bank that Microsoft will put a renewed focus into OS X going forward in areas where it's key to Microsoft's success. After all, if the Mac suddenly gained a very viable and feature rich competitor to Office that was less buggy and easier to administrate, well... that'd be terrible for Microsoft's bottomline. At this moment, it's not a fear... but at one point Word was only a thorn in the side of the makers of then "standard" Wordperfect. You never can underestimate your competition...
That said, Photoshop is such a crucial application for Adobe that they *WILL* stand up and fight to make sure it's competitive long into the future. That is why the move to Cocoa (which IMHO is going to be as beneficial or moreso than 64-bit for Photoshop) will be huge the more and more Apple tacks additional functionality into the Core technologies of the OS. I think that Vista and OS X have effectively hit that fork in the road that it will pay bigger dividends for Adobe to maintain 2 codebases rather than leave anything on the table for Microsoft or Apple or another player to leap past them with. I think the reality that they're willing to jump through the hoops necessary to make it a Cocoa app. is paramount to the success of themselves as a company. Many apps. within Adobe's portfolio are applications that Adobe could let wither on the vine, but Adobe's dominance in the market that Photoshop has all but dominated from day one is something they can ill afford. Mark my words, even if Apple enters the fray, Adobe would no sooner go out and reinvent the wheel and try to break new frontiers with more programmers than you can shake a stick at than to let this market evade them. They might've pissed GoLive away over Dreamweaver (eventually just buying it up), they might've let Quark defeat them with a headstart in Pagemaker only to begin retaking the market due to Quark's greater ineptitude down the road, they may even have conceded Premiere for a period and quit Mac development... but Photoshop will never go away without a fight.
"Why would anyone ever need 64 bits for anything?"
- Bill Gates
------
You guys need to give Elements 6 a fair shake. It's just a GREAT piece of work. Go give those buttholes at Adobe their 80 bucks, it's well worth it. I can't remember when I've seen a better value - then again maybe I'll find some off the wall bug in the next few days but I don't think so. If you're sitting on the fence then you no longer have an excuse - it's priced right and it works
BTW - what's with that 30 page post above? Even his login ID is 2 paragraphs long
- Bill Gates
------
You guys need to give Elements 6 a fair shake. It's just a GREAT piece of work. Go give those buttholes at Adobe their 80 bucks, it's well worth it. I can't remember when I've seen a better value - then again maybe I'll find some off the wall bug in the next few days but I don't think so. If you're sitting on the fence then you no longer have an excuse - it's priced right and it works
BTW - what's with that 30 page post above? Even his login ID is 2 paragraphs long
30 pages... har-har, half of this whole thread maybe, but not my post. Good one Ace, keep that level of comedy up and you might have a second career in the works.
Well, that is if geek comedy on a messageboard ever catches on. I wouldn't quit your day job just yet...
Well I think a lot of the hate from the Mac community towards Adobe comes out of sheer disappointment of how Adobe treats the Mac community.
Sure, Apple can accept some of the blame however as Adobe stands on stage at WWDC stating their firm commitment for the Mac platform the moment they step off the stage this is what happens:
Photoshop Elements 4 (not intel native although Intel Macs had existed a year before this release)
Photoshop Elements 5 (already on Windows before E4 was on Mac and then no E5 on Mac).
Premiere finally made it back to the Mac but only because they saw a market for it because Final Cut is the industry standard.
There's more competition for software on Windows yet Adobe is more aggressive towards the Windows platform and they develop for Mac when they find time. (That's a perception).
Still some pieces of Adobe's software is Windows only and they refuse to make any enterprise software for Mac.
Adobe is more aggressive on the Windows platform for the sole reason that's far more competitive. They have a monopoly of sorts on the Mac platform, so why bother developing? There still isn't a killer Photoshop replacement yet, and there likely won't be for some time.
Not Good
Well the thing is that the industry is gradually moving from 32-bit to 64-bit computing, and with CS4 coming out with a 64-bit platform for Windows only isn't good news.
Well the thing is that the industry is gradually moving from 32-bit to 64-bit computing, and with CS4 coming out with a 64-bit platform for Windows only isn't good news.
Adobe can go to hell IMO. I got so tired of paying for their ridiculous upgrade prices. I have found applications that pretty well do the same thing and they are cheaper.