jwolf6589

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Dec 15, 2010
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Booting into Windows is one MAJOR advantage of the Mac. When will Windows 10 be Arm based so it can be ported over to the new Macs?
 

vigilant

macrumors 6502a
Aug 7, 2007
617
212
Nashville, TN
Booting into Windows is one MAJOR advantage of the Mac. When will Windows 10 be Arm based so it can be ported over to the new Macs?

It may not happen for a while, if it happens at all.

I do expect Apple going into ARM will cause Microsoft to continue to pour money and resources into Windows on ARM.

The AS Macs boot in a completely different way. Microsoft would need to work with Apple to get it to work.
 

MalcolmH

macrumors member
Aug 8, 2020
31
9
At some point in time you will be able to start Windows for Arm via the Apple hyper visor via Parallels on similar. This is performant.

Windows for Arm will be able to emulate 32 and 64 bit x86 apps. This may not be so performant.

The boot mechanism Apple use for Apple Silicon Macs is based off the iOS boot mechanism. Boot camp isn’t possible.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 601
May 20, 2010
4,422
1,197
Los Angeles, CA
Booting into Windows is one MAJOR advantage of the Mac. When will Windows 10 be Arm based so it can be ported over to the new Macs?

No one knows for sure when or even if it will happen. Boot Camp happening for Intel Macs back in 2006 was a (relatively) simple matter of Apple adding in CSM/Legacy BIOS mode into their UEFI implementation and supplying Windows drivers for the hardware they had. The list of things that need to happen for Windows 10 for ARM64 to natively boot on Apple Silicon Macs is as follows:

- Microsoft needs to modify their licensing to allow it (Windows 10 for ARM64 presently is only able to be licensed for OEMs)

- Given the above, Microsoft would also have to figure out (likely with help from Apple) how best to distribute the installer and perform the installation on an Apple Silicon Mac (the Boot Camp Assistant as we know it on Intel would not be the way it happens on Apple Silicon for a variety of logistical reasons); perhaps Apple would let Microsoft put Windows 10 for ARM64 on the Mac App Store with Apple's help and supervision and then the rest would happen automagically (it won't happen the way that it happens on Intel Macs though; that's for sure)

- Apple and Microsoft would need to coordinate such that Windows 10 for ARM64 could actually boot on an Apple Silicon Mac (which is likely not using UEFI or anything that isn't proprietary to Apple); this would likely be way more complicated than Apple simply adding a compatibility mode; Microsoft would likely have to design a special bootloader for Apple Silicon hardware and Apple would have to modify their firmware to allow the foreign OS to even be installed

- Apple and Microsoft would need to collaborate on drivers for Apple's SoC (it's already annoying enough to get the T2 chip to function in x86-64 versions of Windows 10)

- Any code containing 32-bit ARM would have to be removed or modified to solely be 64-bit as Apple Silicon SoC's from A11 onward completely lack 32-bit ARM instruction sets which might result in a customized Apple Silicon specific variant of Windows 10 for ARM64

I'm not saying this all isn't doable. It just requires a level of coordination between Apple and Microsoft that wasn't necessary with Boot Camp on Intel Macs. Like Intel Boot Camp, we very likely won't see anything until after Apple Silicon Macs have been on the market for a bit (if ever).
 

jwolf6589

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Dec 15, 2010
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Colorado
No one knows for sure when or even if it will happen. Boot Camp happening for Intel Macs back in 2006 was a (relatively) simple matter of Apple adding in CSM/Legacy BIOS mode into their UEFI implementation and supplying Windows drivers for the hardware they had. The list of things that need to happen for Windows 10 for ARM64 to natively boot on Apple Silicon Macs is as follows:

- Microsoft needs to modify their licensing to allow it (Windows 10 for ARM64 presently is only able to be licensed for OEMs)

- Given the above, Microsoft would also have to figure out (likely with help from Apple) how best to distribute the installer and perform the installation on an Apple Silicon Mac (the Boot Camp Assistant as we know it on Intel would not be the way it happens on Apple Silicon for a variety of logistical reasons); perhaps Apple would let Microsoft put Windows 10 for ARM64 on the Mac App Store with Apple's help and supervision and then the rest would happen automagically (it won't happen the way that it happens on Intel Macs though; that's for sure)

- Apple and Microsoft would need to coordinate such that Windows 10 for ARM64 could actually boot on an Apple Silicon Mac (which is likely not using UEFI or anything that isn't proprietary to Apple); this would likely be way more complicated than Apple simply adding a compatibility mode; Microsoft would likely have to design a special bootloader for Apple Silicon hardware and Apple would have to modify their firmware to allow the foreign OS to even be installed

- Apple and Microsoft would need to collaborate on drivers for Apple's SoC (it's already annoying enough to get the T2 chip to function in x86-64 versions of Windows 10)

- Any code containing 32-bit ARM would have to be removed or modified to solely be 64-bit as Apple Silicon SoC's from A11 onward completely lack 32-bit ARM instruction sets which might result in a customized Apple Silicon specific variant of Windows 10 for ARM64

I'm not saying this all isn't doable. It just requires a level of coordination between Apple and Microsoft that wasn't necessary with Boot Camp on Intel Macs. Like Intel Boot Camp, we very likely won't see anything until after Apple Silicon Macs have been on the market for a bit (if ever).

Then I am happy I recently bought a 2020 MacBook Pro so I can use Windows when necessary and I WONT be buying an ARM Mac.
 

jwolf6589

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Dec 15, 2010
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Colorado
At some point in time you will be able to start Windows for Arm via the Apple hyper visor via Parallels on similar. This is performant.

Windows for Arm will be able to emulate 32 and 64 bit x86 apps. This may not be so performant.

The boot mechanism Apple use for Apple Silicon Macs is based off the iOS boot mechanism. Boot camp isn’t possible.

So the Arm Macs won't need to boot? Just restart when necessary? Interesting..
 

leman

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2008
13,841
9,609
So the Arm Macs won't need to boot? Just restart when necessary? Interesting..

What do you mean by this? Every computer needs to "boot". It's just that Apple Silicon Macs are going to have a custom boot procedure.

About the prospect of native Windows boot on Arm Macs — I wouldn't hold my breath. Just too many things need to happen for that. Apple needs to give Microsoft means of booting natively, and Apple needs to write native Windows drivers. Seems really unlikely to me. Running ARM Windows in a virtual machine makes much more sense.
 
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startergo

macrumors 68040
Sep 20, 2018
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Originally Windows 10 (as distinguished from Windows 10 Mobile) could run only on PCs that were powered by x86 and x64 processors. Now, Windows 10 desktop can run on machines that are powered by ARM64 processors with the Fall Creators Update or newer.
The WOW64 layer of Windows 10 allows x86 code to run on the ARM64 version of Windows 10. x86 emulation works by compiling blocks of x86 instructions into ARM64 instructions with optimizations to improve performance. A service caches these translated blocks of code to reduce the overhead of instruction translation and allow for optimization when the code runs again. The caches are produced for each module so that other apps can make use of them on first launch.


For more details about these technologies, see the Windows 10 on ARM Channel9 video.
 
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jwolf6589

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Dec 15, 2010
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What do you mean by this? Every computer needs to "boot". It's just that Apple Silicon Macs are going to have a custom boot procedure.

About the prospect of native Windows boot on Arm Macs — I wouldn't hold my breath. Just too many things need to happen for that. Apple needs to give Microsoft means of booting natively, and Apple needs to write native Windows drivers. Seems really unlikely to me. Running ARM Windows in a virtual machine makes much more sense.

will they boot much faster?
 

Mikael H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 3, 2014
772
415
Personally I don’t know what’s the advantage to the arm macs.
To someone who enjoys macOS and Apple computers, and who doesn't require other operating systems for their work? Arm's the future at least for the next decade or two.

To someone who needs Windows apps regularly? It would just be luxury consumption.

If you need other operating systems and Apple can't fulfill your needs, vote with your wallet.
 
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Boyd01

Moderator
Staff member
Feb 21, 2012
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I bought a new Mini this summer because I wanted to run Windows under Parallels. Very happy with it. Personally, I would not want to be an early adopter of the new Apple Silicon Macs, will wait and see how they work out and then decide if they offer any advantages for me at some future date.
 

MevetS

macrumors 6502
Dec 27, 2018
370
289
Earth
I bought a new Mini this summer because I wanted to run Windows under Parallels. Very happy with it. Personally, I would not want to be an early adopter of the new Apple Silicon Macs, will wait and see how they work out and then decide if they offer any advantages for me at some future date.

This.

I bought a 2018 Mini last December, because it met my needs at the time. It still does, and I expect to use it for several more years.

When my needs again change I’ll see what is available and decide accordingly.
 
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LonestarOne

macrumors 6502
Sep 13, 2019
444
575
McKinney, TX
Personally I don’t know what’s the advantage to the arm macs.

Intel is just now introducing 10-nm processors. They’re 5 years late. AMD is shipping 7-nm already. Apple is using 5-nm.

Intel charges hundreds of dollars for a processor. Apple Silicon chips are dirt cheap.

Intel’s chips run so hot that Mac books overheat. Apple Silicon can run in a cellphone without overheating.

Apple asks Intel for features like support for 5K iMac displays, and Intel can’t deliver, so Apple has to develop its own support chips.

Machine-learning accelerators. Neural networks. Secure enclave. Shall I go on?
 

jwolf6589

macrumors 68030
Original poster
Dec 15, 2010
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Colorado
Intel is just now introducing 10-nm processors. They’re 5 years late. AMD is shipping 7-nm already. Apple is using 5-nm.

Intel charges hundreds of dollars for a processor. Apple Silicon chips are dirt cheap.

Intel’s chips run so hot that Mac books overheat. Apple Silicon can run in a cellphone without overheating.

Apple asks Intel for features like support for 5K iMac displays, and Intel can’t deliver, so Apple has to develop its own support chips.

Machine-learning accelerators. Neural networks. Secure enclave. Shall I go on?

Will macs be cheaper?
 

Mikael H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 3, 2014
772
415
Will macs be cheaper?
Fat chance. 😆
If we’re lucky Apple decides to give us more for the money, but there’s really no incentive for them to sell machines a lot cheaper. That said I was impressed by how good an HP laptop you get for half the price of a MacBook Air, so there definitely is some room for nice but not too expensive Apple computers in the span below $1000 excluding taxes.
 

Yebubbleman

macrumors 601
May 20, 2010
4,422
1,197
Los Angeles, CA
Then I am happy I recently bought a 2020 MacBook Pro so I can use Windows when necessary and I WONT be buying an ARM Mac.

Yeah, this is exactly why I'll be doing the same. I don't know that I'll NEVER buy an Apple Silicon Mac. If the MacBook Air sees performance gains worthy of its former 2010-2017 glory, that may be my Mac of choice in the Apple Silicon era as my Mac needs have largely been cannibalized by iPadOS and Windows.
 

ww1971

macrumors regular
Jul 15, 2011
122
34
Booting into Windows is one MAJOR advantage of the Mac. When will Windows 10 be Arm based so it can be ported over to the new Macs?

microsoft is likely to keep the arm version of windows 10 to OEMs meaning that it can only be bought when people buy a new arm based computer for the time being at least
 

theSeb

macrumors 604
Aug 10, 2010
7,461
1,864
Now-here
Apple is an OEM by the strict definition of the word, so there is a chance of it happening. This isn’t the 80s or the 90s anymore. The windows division no longer holds all the power within MS and that changed the entire philosophy at Redmond.

MS and Apple work closely together to bring MS applications into the apple ecosystem. MS is a massive supporter of open source. What a crazy time to be alive.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Sep 15, 2011
11,051
12,447
Vilano Beach, FL
Running ARM Windows in a virtual machine makes much more sense.

Plus, during the keynote, they went all in on virtualization - combine that with the conspicuous absence of any mention of bootcamp - to me, that means, it's not on the roadmap for ASi.

I get that some people have specific use cases where they want Winders™ running native (I'd assume mostly for performance reasons). I did it for a while, but it was so clumsy when your daily workflow is using both MacOS and Windows, the lack of APFS drivers for MacOS access (assuming this is still the case[?]), having to duplicate software/services, the inability to do cross platform dev work (like right now I'm building a .NET backend/API that's consumed by an iPadOS client).

I'd assume the whole "How fast does it boot" is a concern more relevant to bootcamp, since you wind up bouncing back-and-forth between OSs (requiring a full restart ...).

I've been super happy with my '18 Mini, i7/32GB running Parallels for my Win needs, but I'll need to evaluate how I can get work done on an ASi machine (where' to date, I've needed x86/x64 Windows VMs).

FWIW, I think my first ASi machine will likely be a mid-ranged laptop for my daughter. Looking at replacing her current machine, and her software needs are things I suspect will be ready to go OOTB (you know, browsers, office apps, all the usual Apple suspects).
 
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