Not again... (Mac vs PC re:$$$)

[Timelessblur]

umm it still is. I paid 1500 for my computer I built. A pre-built computer with semilar specs is 1700 from dell and it has crappier parts. 2K from alien with about the same leval of parts. (this is running with no monitor) I did go though the trouble of checking to make sure how much I saved.

You have to remeber dell is hard for costume builts to beat because the ones who costume built there computer use much higher quilty parts so general they get about the same spec numbers for same price but almost every part of there computer is better quilty parts.

 

[jefhatfield]

umm it still is. I paid 1500 for my computer I built. A pre-built computer with semilar specs is 1700 from dell and it has crappier parts. 2K from alien with about the same leval of parts. (this is running with no monitor) I did go though the trouble of checking to make sure how much I saved.

You have to remeber dell is hard for costume builts to beat because the ones who costume built there computer use much higher quilty parts so general they get about the same spec numbers for same price but almost every part of there computer is better quilty parts.

but buy all the software and operating system that a dell comes with and then see if you saved any money

too many people, usually not professionals like me, are hobbyists who brag about making a comparable computer for the same price without looking at the software angle

when you buy a computer from a major maker, it's not just the tower, there's the operating system, software apps and games, keyboard, and mouse and some major makers, usually during christmas or back to school season will throw in a printer, extra ram, or monitor in for free

the scale of the big boys gives them that advantage of buying in bulk and getting hardware and software for less money

 

[jefhatfield]

now if dell, emachines, or hp compaq built a tower only with just windows on it, then you would see machines retailing for 150 dollars or less

but like i said, add the mouse, keyboard, some games, some apps and then you have a machine that probably gets into the 350-400 dollar range

my compaq laptop came with scads of programs on it and if i had to buy all that software individually, it would have cost many hundreds of dollars

windows 98
mcafee virus software
trip maker basics
microsoft money
quicken
microsoft works
microsoft encarta
microsoft word
world book encyclopedia
ring central fax
corel office suite

and the free stuff pre-installed

netscape navigator
netscape mail
real player
quicktime
adobe acrobat player
flash player
star office on some models of the line

etc...

and the compaq desktop line comes with all that and much more in terms of software and freeware and desktops start at 399 usd...there's just no way to get all that software stuff and hardware for the same price if you go at it alone

and that's the low to mid end machines i am talking about

for high end machines, i have seen some high end graphics machines in the 4k+ range with four titles from adobe as in a graphics or web suite, a macromedia suite with four or five titles, maya mid level release, and microsoft office premium bundled on the machine...if you have to buy all that software alone, it almost costs as much as the computer as it is being offered by the major maker with all the software already on it

 

[5300cs]

Pretty men dig Apple iWhatevers.

He probably thinks you're not man enough to use a PC too, seeing how you got the cute Mac.

I personally, don't think Macs have looked 'cute' since the iMacs or original iBooks (just my opinion.) I guess if someone thinks a G5 is cute, well... whatever floats their boat

This was the same guy though, who had trouble networking a desktop win2k machine & a notebook xp machine. I did it with 2 iBooks with Jaguar & Panther in about 2 minutes. Really pissed him off He's all on the floor sweating and panting & swearing, messing around with cable and so on.

I sometimes myself wonder if I've been too harsh on windows, but a 5 minute stint with any xp machine, or even worse a pocket pc brings me back to reality

 

[Abstract]

@Jefhatfield: While I generally agree with what you're saying, what are the chances that someone who buys that PC is looking for that exact same lineup of included apps? A Dell costs what it does because of all these other things, I'd rather not have it and just ask for WinXP and a reduced computer price.

But yes, some of the software that's included is probably necessary if you're going to enjoy your computer, and that's where some of the costs lie.

 

[BornAgainMac]

What brand of hard drives do mac's use?

Western Digital and Maxtor are ****ty drives. Period.

Also, some of that stuff is trivial. It's just like buying a PC and having all this software preloaded that you may never use. I can never see myself using stickies. Not only that but we have things like sourceforge.net where most of that stuff can be had FOR FREE.


Also, on PC's if you want Unix or Xwindow just install Linux or Unix.

That's true. I forgot about Linux. What do you recommend for a Hard Drive brand? I was thinking of upgrading my stock 160 GB. I have had zero problems with Maxtor and Western Digital drives and I have tons of them as firewire drives. Typically they give me at least 5 years of service before they sound like they are going to die. Is there another brand that gives better performance? IBM? Seagate?

 

[jefhatfield]

@Jefhatfield: While I generally agree with what you're saying, what are the chances that someone who buys that PC is looking for that exact same lineup of included apps? A Dell costs what it does because of all these other things, I'd rather not have it and just ask for WinXP and a reduced computer price.

But yes, some of the software that's included is probably necessary if you're going to enjoy your computer, and that's where some of the costs lie.

very true

the fax software is one i have never used

microsoft money or quicken is good, but i don't need both

microsoft works and corel office suite do the same thing, and i don't need both

microsoft word is fine, but microsoft works word processor gets the job done

i can cruise the net with ie explorer and do email with outlook express, i don't need netscape also

one encyclopedia is fine, but i don't need encarta and world book

so there is definitely a lot of stuff on the software end i would not buy...if i like an app i don't need to get the same basic thing from another company

the people i know who still build their own in this day and age strip down the software titles so they can make their machine a gaming machine which looks cool with glass portholes/sides, extra fans, and fancy lights inside...besides games, there will be a browser and email, but little else except for games

i love the magazine cpu (computer power user) and they try and make the ultimate gaming machines within different budget points...the people i know who go for build your own often like to spend way more than any company bought machine and make the coolest gaming machine on the block

on www.woz.org a super techie built a 24" crt imac a few years ago...he basically took the guts of a crt imac and transferred it all, except for the 15" crt, into a sony 24" inch trinitron crt to make a super large all in one imac

it's one of the coolest mods i have seen but it takes more than just knowledge of computer hardware due to some electronics skills it employs connecting the internals of an apple imac to a sony trinitron and making it all in one and seamless...and doing that all without getting a lethal shock

working inside a computer tower is commonplace and safe, but digging into crt monitors deals with high voltage and can be dangerous for people who do not know what they are doing...also digging into computer power supplies is dangerous and involves high voltage

 

[Timelessblur]

but buy all the software and operating system that a dell comes with and then see if you saved any money

too many people, usually not professionals like me, are hobbyists who brag about making a comparable computer for the same price without looking at the software angle

when you buy a computer from a major maker, it's not just the tower, there's the operating system, software apps and games, keyboard, and mouse and some major makers, usually during christmas or back to school season will throw in a printer, extra ram, or monitor in for free

the scale of the big boys gives them that advantage of buying in bulk and getting hardware and software for less money

I forgot to add the software on my computer I built is legit I paid for it. I am running XP pro. Nortain Antivirse and firewall. I got MS office Pro though my school for free. Otherwise I would of used something like MSworks which I can get for 20bucks OEM and it has Word and a Spreed sheet program (not nearly as powerful as excel but I dont need it. Nor do I need outlook I would just use outlook Express or thurnder bird)

 

[Timelessblur]

now if dell, emachines, or hp compaq built a tower only with just windows on it, then you would see machines retailing for 150 dollars or less

but like i said, add the mouse, keyboard, some games, some apps and then you have a machine that probably gets into the 350-400 dollar range

my compaq laptop came with scads of programs on it and if i had to buy all that software individually, it would have cost many hundreds of dollars

windows 98
mcafee virus software
trip maker basics
microsoft money
quicken
microsoft works
microsoft encarta
microsoft word
world book encyclopedia
ring central fax
corel office suite

of that list I most of it I would uninstall the 2nd I got the computer and a lot of it I find is crap. Trip maker would go. MS money would go. MS word goes with works. The fax program would go. Quicken would go. I might keep around encarta and the encyclopedia. BTW I have used all those programs and I happen to own spare lissens to all of them right since the laptop they came on is well no longer in uses and well been dismantinal by gateway.

You macfiee camew with a 90 day trail and besides I hate macfee. Oh btw I got nortain 2k4 intersnet security for 20 bucks OEM from newegg. XP Pro 140 OEM from newegg

 

[MrJohnson]

That's true. I forgot about Linux. What do you recommend for a Hard Drive brand? I was thinking of upgrading my stock 160 GB. I have had zero problems with Maxtor and Western Digital drives and I have tons of them as firewire drives. Typically they give me at least 5 years of service before they sound like they are going to die. Is there another brand that gives better performance? IBM? Seagate?

IBM is dead, they sold their operation to Hitachi.

I am migrating to only Hitachi drives (Not the old IBM drives that have been rebadged) and Seagate drives as they are the quitest and most reliable. They cost more but that really doesn't matter to me as my data is valuable to me. Recently My dad's western digital died with absolutly no clicking sound of doom. We had to pay $1200 to get the data off of it (He is a lawyer and needed the information on it in a week to go to court)

I will never buy Western digital or Maxtor.

 

[MrJohnson]

very true

the fax software is one i have never used

microsoft money or quicken is good, but i don't need both

microsoft works and corel office suite do the same thing, and i don't need both

microsoft word is fine, but microsoft works word processor gets the job done

i can cruise the net with ie explorer and do email with outlook express, i don't need netscape also

one encyclopedia is fine, but i don't need encarta and world book

so there is definitely a lot of stuff on the software end i would not buy...if i like an app i don't need to get the same basic thing from another company

the people i know who still build their own in this day and age strip down the software titles so they can make their machine a gaming machine which looks cool with glass portholes/sides, extra fans, and fancy lights inside...besides games, there will be a browser and email, but little else except for games

i love the magazine cpu (computer power user) and they try and make the ultimate gaming machines within different budget points...the people i know who go for build your own often like to spend way more than any company bought machine and make the coolest gaming machine on the block

on www.woz.org a super techie built a 24" crt imac a few years ago...he basically took the guts of a crt imac and transferred it all, except for the 15" crt, into a sony 24" inch trinitron crt to make a super large all in one imac

it's one of the coolest mods i have seen but it takes more than just knowledge of computer hardware due to some electronics skills it employs connecting the internals of an apple imac to a sony trinitron and making it all in one and seamless...and doing that all without getting a lethal shock

working inside a computer tower is commonplace and safe, but digging into crt monitors deals with high voltage and can be dangerous for people who do not know what they are doing...also digging into computer power supplies is dangerous and involves high voltage

That whole, mod your case thing is only taking off with the people who are just now starting to build their computers. Personally I think it looks ugly. I perfer quiet fast operating. And I can guarantee you building your own computer is cheaper. AMD > Intel. For price point and performance in games.

 

[jefhatfield]

there is so much software to be had illegally, especially around schools

the college wanted me to teach as a part time professor but also be the library's network admin using one copy of windows nt for all the computers...he he...on one end teach the microsoft line at the college's microsoft sponsored and cisco sponsored academy and have the students buy the books and software needed from the college bookstore, and on the other end use one copy of nt workstation for the whole library??

in a perfect world either we would all buy software legally, thus driving down the price, or have it that all software would be free and paid for by hardware, taxes, toner ink, and other sources to pay for the programmers and developers

much of the software could be developed for free by students in college and grad school working for a project/grade/thesis/dissertation and from hobbyists who want to make stuff and share it for free, like the woz wanted to back in the early 70s

even if it eventually costs twice as much to build one's machine from scratch one day, there will be computer heads out there doing it for the fun...i play guitar and find the cheapest way to get, let's say a stratocaster, is to buy one for seven or eight hundred...mid level model

but i can actually buy the licensed/official fender parts individually and build one for a thousand dollars, but it would be exactly the way i wanted it...right color, some chrome parts, some black chrome parts, vintage pickups in the neck and bridge position, but reverse polarity modern/hotter pickup in the middle position, single layer pickguard with fewer screws as opposed to triple layer pickguard, tweed case instead of plastic molded case, and sperzel or gotoh straplocks as opposed to standard fender straplocks...basically, the guitar would sound almost the same but it would be perfectly suited to my tastes

that's the best reason for someone to build their own machine...there's so many cool aftermarket and custom parts that it's hard to build a machine cheaply these days...even the darn computer cases could be super customized and i have seen cases that are 1500 alone without the motherboard, processor, or ram

the customization and flexibility for the ultra cool/modern will cost you a pretty penny and give you a machine which may act the same on the inside, but look cool doing it...i wouldn't want to build a boring looking machine these days...if i did it, i would go all out like the sample machines made by the people at cpu magazine or the various gaming magazines

i don't know any fellow computer professional these days who builds their own to save money...today, it's about the cool mods and after market parts and there is a market in building super cool gaming machines for rich kids

 

[jefhatfield]

That whole, mod your case thing is only taking off with the people who are just now starting to build their computers. Personally I think it looks ugly. I perfer quiet fast operating. And I can guarantee you building your own computer is cheaper. AMD > Intel. For price point and performance in games.

if you can build the machine cheap and find sources to get all the identical software that hp, ibm, etc gives you on their machines, then you can start a business

but then you would have to do what you do and occassionally give away ram and inkjet printers for free, and oh yeah, provide 90 days free telephone support and one year hardware and parts standard warranty...and if need be provide two years for 79 dollars and three for 99 dollars, and add extra protection beyond that for another 99 dollars

those big companies, with the combination of hardware, software, and warranty support have people like you and me beat...if you can circumvent all that you can become the next emachines or winbook or ibm

 

[Timelessblur]

Well even the people who build are saying if you want to go low range and cheap go buy a dell Emachince ect. Because it going to hard to beat there price. By mid leval the tables turn back to the builders.

Building your own computer advatage are.
Higher quilty parts in general (better brands, better part specs ect).

You know Exactly what is in the computer

You can cut corners on stuff you dont need or dont want or upgraded indival parts with out paying for crap you dont want.

When something does go wrong you can general figure out what it was pretty fast or trace it down.

There is no extra crap in the software that been nicely installed for you. No AOL none of that extra stuff they have a contral to install on the computer for you. In the software benfintes it is very nice since you control what is put on there and there is no spending 30-40 min trying to figure out what extra crap there is in there.


Yeah low end you not going to beat dell. They can undercut you pretty easily but you also need to remeber they are making a few bucks off that computer to begin with. There biggest cost saving is in the software since they are getting huge deals in it. Hardware wise not so much. I know for a fact Dell PSU are on the weak side. It ok for most using but if you if you want to OC add more stuff it will show it face. (not like you can overclock a prebuilt computer any how)

 

[jefhatfield]

i thought about a price point high enough in a computer where i can offer my customers a deal where i would be cheaper than dell or emachines

but my customers who are home, business, and corporate almost always go for the cheap machines which are the desktops under $1000 dollars each...if there was a niche i can find in custom built machines these days, i would find it and make money for my business that way also...plus it would be fun instead of just offering and dealing with software and hardware repair issues only

i just don't think there is any way to make building your own worth it in a business sense when my customers want the cheapest, or just one model up version of a dell, emachine, hp, or compaq

there is one place where i heard that building your own can seriously save money...in the movie "the mummy", techs built custom machines, many of them, to render the digital effects and saved a ton of money as opposed to buying someone else's (sgi or sun) ultra expensive custom graphics machines

in some military operations, certain mass computing projects are built by a contractor from scratch as opposed to just buying a whole bunch of gear from some computer giant...in this day and age of politicians complaining about the high cost of war, cutting costs can be crucial

the department of the army had a study where they confirmed that using macs would be cheaper in the long run because it would require far less manpower to repair and troubleshoot the things compared to pee-cee's...good move i say

 

[JeffTL]

Well what are you basing that on?

I could say that a Dell D600 is a better laptop overall but I don't know what you're saying exactly.

\

Inspiron 600? Doesn't come standard with CD burner or 40-gigabyte hard drive. Without sale we're talking $1407 and you don't even get XP Pro (if you want or need its features it's another $71) to approximate a $1299 iBook 14". There's no need to go to the 1.25 GHz iBook, closer to the 1.5 GHz Dell, as either the Apple or the Dell is not going to be a high-powered 3D machine -- 32 MB of video RAM.