Notable Developer Starts Patreon to Fund Apple Silicon Linux Port

[Erehy Dobon]

And when you compare apples to apples and average everything out (including a wide suite of tasks and similar visual effects), how does Linux notebook battery life compare to Windows notebook battery life?

Again, more Linux apologists.

The ongoing, never-ending result every time a Linux v. non-Linux notebook battery management comparison is made.

Let's remember what an operating system is: it's a big complicated program that allows other big complicated programs to co-exist peacefully on the same system.

Today, that means visual (GUI) windowing systems in a networked environment. Real usage isn't some standalone device running a terminal shell.

Nobody runs just one program on their computer. Even Chromebooks run a bunch of stuff.

 

[firewood]

My guess is that developers will start running Linux inside virtual containers of some sort (some new versions of Docker, Parallels, or VirtualBox, et.al. for arm64) on top of macOS on M1 MacBooks, way way before anyone figures out how to boot Linux on M1 MacBook bare metal.

 

[s66]

I don't believe macOS contains any actual code from the original, Bell Labs version of Unix.

The userland code on top of the mach kernel is FreeBSD derived. (Apple does acknowledge it in the Copyright notice).

more here: https://developer.apple.com/library...nelProgramming/Architecture/Architecture.html

Much of what is today FreeBSD and OpenBSD, NetBSD, Darwin etc. was built upon 4.4BSD which was made available for free (BSD license allows almost all but claiming you made it) in a release (Net/2) back in June of 1991. It was lacking a few things that Bell Labs still held under copyright, but those got eventually rewritten to avoid that problem and have a complete system (including things like vi). Add in a lawsuit by AT&T (owner of Bell Labs) to spice it all up a bit.

 

[abhibeckert]

Of course the irony is that Macs ARE running Linux, just a heavily customized version.

What are you talking about? Apple's operating system was founded while Linus Torvalds was still in high school. Version 1.0 of Linux came out almost 10 years after Mac OS (it was named NeXT at the time).

 

[thejadedmonkey]

It's not necessary, but it would help a lot, and why not help developers who are working to make your hardware more capable?

Because that's not what Apple does. Apple is the company who will bully their 3rd party vendors into NOT selling you hardware if you try to run another OS on their hardware.

 

[mannyvel]

Yeah right the magical Apple did it all with nothing from them or anyone else, those developers they got and the agreement was for show. You Apple die hards are incredible rewriting history when the facts are there for everyone to see and know. There is no shame in using other people ideas and building upon them for something better. It is an actual achievement to be proud of, denying it makes you seem so petty and pathetic.

You can believe lies, or you can believe the truth. Doesn't make any difference to me, but I'll keep telling you you're wrong.

If anything, this shows the problem with the internet: when enough people say it other people believe it's true. Thanks, PageRank.

 

[jdoyle]

OS X is unix based with all the advantages burnt in anyway. Why would you bother with a hacked version on Linux on the M1? You are getting all the benefits plus the best UI on the planet.

 

[mannyvel]

What's the difference between GNU and Unix? "Gnu's not Unix"

Hahahah! From the horse's mouth indeed!

Edit: I want to say that there was another personality/OS that someone got to run on top of Mach at one point. Does anyone else remember? It's so long ago that that it's not indexed.

 

[coolfactor]

Of course the irony is that Macs ARE running Linux, just a heavily customized version.

Yes, as others have pointed out, macOS is a certified UNIX operating system, not related to Linux, except by extension that Linux is a derivative of UNIX. UNIX goes back to the 70's, and Apple previously had a UNIX variant back in the 80's.

Steve Jobs hired the right people for NeXT who made the smart choice to use UNIX as the foundation of NeXTSTEP, of which macOS 10+ was built from when Apple bought them in 1997.

 

[coolfactor]

I'm a bit confused. I run Ubuntu Linux on a Raspberry Pi, which has an ARM processor, so getting Linux to run on M1 should not be that far off, unless Apple has highly customized the instruction set on the M1.

 

[BGPL]

I'm probably going to regret this but what would be the purpose of running Linux?

I tried it out years ago, before I switched to a Mac, and couldn't see the purpose of it.

Now that MacOS is free, there is no purpose for most people. I was a Unix/Linux admin for years, and the last thing I wanted to do when I got home was mess with a Unix based OS. I like Macs because I can still use cron, shell scripts and brew, but the hardware is supported and it's a desktop operating system. Other than that, Linux is a driver/kernel nightmare - almost like owning a hackintosh (did that too, never again).

 

[coolfactor]

I'm probably going to regret this but what would be the purpose of running Linux?

I tried it out years ago, before I switched to a Mac, and couldn't see the purpose of it.

Here's some food for thought...

111+ Linux Statistics and Facts—Linux Rockс Hard in 2023

Tech world loves Linux and so does Hollywood: 90% of CGI exist thanks to Linux. Learn all about it in 2023 with our 111+ Linux statistics.

hostingtribunal.com

Linux is not some insignificant operating system.

 

[coolfactor]

Now that MacOS is free, there is no purpose for most people. I was a Unix/Linux admin for years, and the last thing I wanted to do when I got home was mess with a Unix based OS. I like Macs because I can still use cron, shell scripts and brew, but the hardware is supported and it's a desktop operating system. Other than that, Linux is a driver/kernel nightmare - almost like owning a hackintosh (did that too, never again).

macOS is a UNIX operating system. Not even "UNIX-based", but the real, certified deal, so you use one every day. Go figure.

 

[Stephen.R]

My guess is that developers will start running Linux inside virtual containers of some sort (some new versions of Docker, Parallels, or VirtualBox, et.al. for arm64) on top of macOS on M1 MacBooks, way way before anyone figures out how to boot Linux on M1 MacBook bare metal.

"Containers" the way Docker on Linux works, won't work to run linux on macOS, or anything that isn't Linux. The whole point of it is that the kernel is shard, and services/applications are run in a cgroup. It's specifically a feature of the linux kernel. Even if macOS' kernel XNU added support for something akin to cgroups, it'd allow running macOS/Darwin containers, not linux.

However as to your general point: people have literally already run linux VMs on M1 Macs, because of course virtualisation is going to be quicker than hardware booting.

 

[hot-gril]

I'm a bit confused. I run Ubuntu Linux on a Raspberry Pi, which has an ARM processor, so getting Linux to run on M1 should not be that far off, unless Apple has highly customized the instruction set on the M1.

There's a lot more to the chip than the instruction set. I'm guessing graphics will be a challenge.

 

[s66]

I'm a bit confused. I run Ubuntu Linux on a Raspberry Pi, which has an ARM processor, so getting Linux to run on M1 should not be that far off, unless Apple has highly customized the instruction set on the M1.

The M1 is much, much more than a bunch of ARM CPU cores.

It also has many dedicated elements in it that serve to support Machine Learning, Image Processing, encryption, etc. as well. And let's not forget a GPU that's mostly undocumented.

In addition any OS that boots the system needs to manage every bit of hardware of the system (including managing power, controlling temperature), in this case that also includes the secure enclave - hard to tell how that will sit with Apple but let's assume you'll not get it to work with unauthorized (read: unsigned by Apple) software at all.

 

[hot-gril]

And when you compare apples to apples and average everything out (including a wide suite of tasks and similar visual effects), how does Linux notebook battery life compare to Windows notebook battery life?

Again, more Linux apologists.

The ongoing, never-ending result every time a Linux v. non-Linux notebook battery management comparison is made.

Let's remember what an operating system is: it's a big complicated program that allows other big complicated programs to co-exist peacefully on the same system.

Today, that means visual (GUI) windowing systems in a networked environment. Real usage isn't some standalone device running a terminal shell.

Nobody runs just one program on their computer. Even Chromebooks run a bunch of stuff.

Who here is saying Linux is a great system to run on a laptop with a DE and everything? It's great for running "headless" stuff like that used for research or servers. Open source stuff is often a pain on macOS, not nearly as bad as on Windows but still annoying. Hence why I run a headless Linux VM on my Mac for those things.

Case in point: I've been looking for a low-power server for my home, and the AS Mac mini blows everything else out of the water. My RPi4 is a dog and probably uses the same power. Intel NUCs are slower and less efficient too. I can't be alone, and much bigger server farms could use these too.

 

[max2]

Anything is possible.

 

[torncanvas]

Now that it’s public that every Big Sur user is phoning home for every app use with unencrypted metadata, IMO the ideal setup would be running Linux with a macOS VM, instead of the other way around.

But I suppose that could still be several years out depending on adoption.

I applaud this effort, hopefully it gains traction.

 

[tamvly]

Interesting tech discussion.

But where’s the business case for Apple? I don’t see one that makes sense.

 

[Westside guy]

KHTML and CUPS off the top of my head are clear examples of apple using Open Source code in their macOS operating system. Safari would never have gotten off the ground without the KDE projects code to render web pages.

Of course, Linux =/= Open Source. The BSDs, which are more closely aligned with macOS than Linux is, are also Open Source - just under a different (non-GPL) license. The infamous Hurd is yet another FOSS operating system.

As I recall, Apple's launchd is also open source... released under the Apache license IIRC?

 

[germinator]

I'm probably going to regret this but what would be the purpose of running Linux?

I tried it out years ago, before I switched to a Mac, and couldn't see the purpose of it.

Because Apple has stopped innovating macOS and turned it instead into a locked down walled garden where I can't even stop its connection to the mothership with a VPN--on MY COMPUTER.

That's why.

When the biggest feature of a major version is "dark mode" you know that's the end of it.

Also, all the software I need is available on Linux, often in a better version.

 

[Madd the Sane]

Edit: I want to say that there was another personality/OS that someone got to run on top of Mach at one point. Does anyone else remember? It's so long ago that that it's not indexed.

I thought GNU Hurd used a Mach-style kernel. A trip to Wikipedia confirms it uses a derivative of the Mach microkernel.

I'm a bit confused. I run Ubuntu Linux on a Raspberry Pi, which has an ARM processor, so getting Linux to run on M1 should not be that far off, unless Apple has highly customized the instruction set on the M1.

The biggest issue, as mentioned before, is that the GPU is a complete mystery. There needs to be some code to even get anything on the screen.

As I recall, Apple's launchd is also open source... released under the Apache license IIRC?

Yup. But it wasn't widely adopted by a lot of OSS people because it was different.

 

[torncanvas]

I can't even stop its connection to the mothership with a VPN--on MY COMPUTER.

Yeah this is the final nail in the coffin of what makes me want to run native Linux with a macOS VM. It’s a very serious violation of trust to create a backdoor around VPNs and such.

 

[Seoras]

The next news article on MR after this one, Apple Developers Now Able to Natively Run macOS Within AWS With Amazon EC2 Mac Instances, makes me now wonder if Apple should be considering a server blade based on the M1 which can run either MacOS or Linux and therefore Amazon should be interested in supporting this guy's porting project?
Imagine Apple's own servers running, cool and lower powered, on the M1? Seems obvious.