Notes of Interest on Thunderbolt and MacBook Pro

[gloss]

If TB is just an extension of a PCIe x4 slot, I have no idea why we won't see PCIe adapters.
It's a good old "screw you" for Mac Pro 2010 buyers.

I believe they've stated that this is because the Thunderbolt bus requires direct access to the motherboard:

(Appleinsider) "Intel says the only way to have it is to buy a system or logic board that incorporates the new Thunderbolt controller chip. That's because the Thunderbolt chip needs direct access to both the system's video and PCI Express architecture."

So this isn't an Apple thing, it's a Thunderbolt thing. Teardowns of the new Macbooks have shown that the new Thunderbolt controller is one of the larger chips on the motherboard.

 

[Steveorevo]

No. External options means you aren't tied to a particular carrier/ISP/technology which in the end is much better to the consumer.

True. But then again, rumor has it that Apple may try to kill the SIM card in iPhone5, combined with a new Qualcomm multi-carrier 'world' compatible chip. This would eliminate having to re-engineer or make multiple phones (something I doubt they will want to repeat). But why even have this in the laptop when you can just wirelessly tether anyhow?

 

[firestarter]

no just used to Apple's technique of locking out perfectly usable hardware in order to 'force' an upgrade path.


It's been the same for the last 15 years so it's nothing new....
It is however tiresome...

Thunderbolt should actually prevent a lot of Apple's cynical marketing.

Once you've got a Thunderbolt connector, Apple can no longer upsell (for example) a MacBook to a MBP just to get firewire, or a 15inch to a 17inch just to get Expressport. You'll have all the expandability you need even at the low end.

 

[sgentle]

I believe that when 'no PCIe expansion cards' was said, it was meant that Intel wouldn't be making them. As far as I have been able to find out, there's nothing at all stopping third parties from doing this. You wouldn't get video but data should be no problem.

 

[Thex1138]

ThunderStruck!

Could describe 10 gigabits each way down the pipe....

ThunderStruck!

 

[manu chao]

Sorry... but where do they compare battery life of prior MBP to the battery endurance of the new ones using THE SAME TESTING METHODOLOGY? Still don't see it!

a) The white MB got 10h with the old methodology and gets 7h with the new one
b) The 2010 13" MBP got got 10h with the old methodology
c) The 2011 13" MBP gets 7h with the new methodology

Try to guess what the 2010 13" MBP would get with the new methodology and what the 2011 13" MBP would get with the old methodology.

 

[gloss]

I believe that when 'no PCIe expansion cards' was said, it was meant that Intel wouldn't be making them. As far as I have been able to find out, there's nothing at all stopping third parties from doing this. You wouldn't get video but data should be no problem.

But will people be happy with paying money for an expansion that removes half of the port's functionality? And will manufacturers make this shortcoming obvious?

 

[Gaokaos]

Sorry... but where do they compare battery life of prior MBP to the battery endurance of the new ones using THE SAME TESTING METHODOLOGY? Still don't see it!

I can't compare between devices but I can tell you that battery life will be about the same for the 13" model and will be slightly less for the 15 and 17 inch models. The reason for this is simple. Apple put in quad core processors that deliver more performance but do consume more power. Intel lists the dual core processors used in the 13 inch model at a TDP of 35 watts. That is the same as all CPU's used in the previous generation MBP's. The quad core processors in the 15 and 17 inch model are listed by Intel at a TDP of 45 watts. Now while these figures can't be compared 100% (actual power usage depends on a lot of factors) they do give a clear indication that the 15 and 17 inch models will consume a bit more power, while they are still equipped with the same batteries. So a slight bump in the autonomy of these models is unavoidable. (regardless of any changed testing policy by apple)
But even then, having a quad core equipped laptop with a 7 hour autonomy is still more then impressive in my book.

 

[firestarter]

But will people be happy with paying money for an expansion that removes half of the port's functionality? And will manufacturers make this shortcoming obvious?

Sure.

I've got a MacPro, and I connect to my monitor using DVI.

I'd use Thunderbolt for storage.

 

[toke lahti]

Cable costs are going to be steep for the optical versions.

Yep,
but I guess they are still cheaper than if transeiver wouldn't be integrated in cable.
Dvi- & hdmi-extending solutions went much cheaper when transeivers were integrated in the cable.

I just don't get why there wouldn't be pci-e-cards for TB. If you need to route gpu output to it, you can do it via pci-e. It won't be as fast as with integrated-to-mb, but nothing is perfect in this world and better is always better than worse.

If TB is 4xPCIe and it can't even handle PCIe v2 x16 (64Gbit/s), which current MP has.
So there has to be way for use TB with lesser than "full speed" both ways.
Just wondering why daisy chain only 7 devices? And only 1 display?
Which means 6 devices and 1 display.
Even fw can daisy chain 16 devices.
And what about dp limitations?
4 lane dp can use 17 Gbit/s, so everything won't go through TB at first.
Hope there's v1.1 like relly soon...

Finally MBP's have possibility of fast expandability. Sadly it seems that used-to-be-the-only-expandable-mac; MP might not have this very soon, if there's no TB-pci-e-add-on-cards. Well, it takes about 5 years fot MP base to renew...

 

[KnightWRX]

True. But then again, rumor has it that Apple may try to kill the SIM card in iPhone5, combined with a new Qualcomm multi-carrier 'world' compatible chip. This would eliminate having to re-engineer or make multiple phones (something I doubt they will want to repeat). But why even have this in the laptop when you can just wirelessly tether anyhow?

Exactly. If it's in the laptop, you get the extra costs of the chip itself and it opens up carriers to charge you a 2nd data plan.

 

[fredoviola]

holy crap! Now I feel quite envious!!!!!!

 

[T25]

No addon cards: Maybe they will eventually come as 3rd party.

Nope, it would need a new chip, but Intel will not relicense the TB technology to third parties - you have to buy chips from Intel if you want to use TB in your products.

Security: Saw a report earlier talking about it being insecure (like firewire) because of the architecture and giving direct access (presumably by target mode in their FW example of hacking into a locked down machine). Fortunately full disk encryption would reduce the risk of a malicious device being able to pull stuff from the disk directly via some future target-mode equivalent, unless it can read/write directly to memory of a running system, but surely they've considered that sort of thing....?

They didn't "consider" this with FW. You can read and write a main memory of running system via Firewire.

Would be nice to have standard connector for everything although that does still depend on how Intel license it. If they start charging extortionate fees or denying access to it to competitors such as AMD then the market will be fragmented and the advantages will be reduced.

Intel will be making money from selling chips and will not allow any reimplementations. This alone will mean that other vendors at least will try to compete promoting other technologies (USB3/some new stuff).

 

[Stiksi]

Sorry... but where do they compare battery life of prior MBP to the battery endurance of the new ones using THE SAME TESTING METHODOLOGY? Still don't see it!

The macbook had the same battery performance with the previous macbook pros, now it has the same battery performance with the current macbook pros. If you having eye problems I feel bad for you, son.

 

[shpanzer]

Thunderbolt is the future!!

 

[ppnkg]

where is the freaking iwork update?

 

[Stiksi]

no just used to Apple's technique of locking out perfectly usable hardware in order to 'force' an upgrade path.


It's been the same for the last 15 years so it's nothing new....
It is however tiresome...

This is pretty much true when it comes to graphics cards but what other technologies has Apple blocked from older machines?

 

[Thunderhawks]

a) The white MB got 10h with the old methodology and gets 7h with the new one
b) The 2010 13" MBP got got 10h with the old methodology
c) The 2011 13" MBP gets 7h with the new methodology

Try to guess what the 2010 13" MBP would get with the new methodology and what the 2011 13" MBP would get with the old methodology.

How is anybody to simulate EXACTLY what a user will do?
So, the safe and correct thing to do is give us the low number, which Apple did.

I don't get why this even matters. Plug it in when it needs a charge! Done

 

[MRU]

This is pretty much true when it comes to graphics cards but what other technologies has Apple blocked from older machines?

Couple of examples..

Software lockouts so software won't load on a machine even though it's capable of doing so. This applies to almost everything at some point whether it's an iPod or laptop/desktop.

Then there were things like how ibook had it's extended desktop locked out to differentiate it from the PowerBook, even though it was easily enabled with a small file, and most recently how AirPrint is locked to HP printers and yet it works perfectly on your mac with printer sharing so why wasn't it included as inteded? Prob the stack of cash HP undoubtably threw Apple's way.

 

[macguy360]

the only real downside I can see to this whole TB thing is their statement on needing a whole new computer/mobo. The fact that you can't even somehow retroactively add a TB connection (even at a slower speed) to existing hardware is going to mean that TB probably won't be in my house for another 2-4 years. We have very new macs and they aren't being replaced anytime soon.

And that begs the question: am I going to pay more for peripherals that support TB in the mean time? Nope. In reality if all I can use are USB and FW800 that's where my money will go.

I'm not saying this is a failure, as plenty of people with a TB connection will adopt peripherals that utilize it. However, I think it could be a slow process for a lot of people like me who are perfectly satisfied with USB 2.0.

Yeah, I am hoping that someone will be able to develop a product that will make good use of this. I mean otherwise what good is it.

The other question is what kind of premium will we pay for such devices. I imagine it's going to be ridiculously expensive.

BTW, I can't see portable hard drives even making good use of this because the speed of the thunderbolt will exceed the read/write speed of the hard drive. You would have to have a portable SSD and I'm not sure there is such a thing lol. Maybe we can hope for flash drives that work with this thing.

 

[Digital Skunk]

[/I]Always sticking it to the Mac Pro guys....

I'm willing to bet a million dollars Apple asked Intel to purposely block implementation into PCIe cards, in order to force Mac Pro owners to upgrade.

Thanks for nothing, Intel/Apple.

I think they actually thought about it for a quick second, then just assumed Mac Pro owners are made of money. I am sure Steve just said that they can just drop another $4000 on a new workstation.

Sadly, I know many will do just that even with their newly acquired 12 core towers.

New mobo's, so dose that mean the AMD platform won't see TB thus making this seem very locked down to intel only?

I think AMD will have to get the tech from Intel to put into their mobos, or just leave it out like many have down with FW800.

This is a pretty awesome video. This is tech that media houses will welcome for media rich content and video production.

Yes, and I am drooling all over myself right now. I just found my new scratch disk unless G-Technology or DataRobotics and put out a 6 bay enclosure in the next month.

 

[macguy360]

How is anybody to simulate EXACTLY what a user will do?
So, the safe and correct thing to do is give us the low number, which Apple did.

I don't get why this even matters. Plug it in when it needs a charge! Done

The funny thing is Apple pretty much just screwed themselves. 90% of the apple community will not be reading these websites and finding out there was new methodology in their testing. The majority of customers will just think that Apple has put in lower quality batteries in their laptops.

 

[Digital Skunk]

Couple of examples..

Software lockouts so software won't load on a machine even though it's capable of doing so. This applies to almost everything at some point whether it's an iPod or laptop/desktop.

Then there were things like how ibook had it's extended desktop locked out to differentiate it from the PowerBook, even though it was easily enabled with a small file, and most recently how AirPrint is locked to HP printers and yet it works perfectly on your mac with printer sharing so why wasn't it included as inteded? Prob the stack of cash HP undoubtably threw Apple's way.

There are a number of PCIe expansion cards that are PnP on windows boxes that won't work with OSX machines and many deep seated firmware lock outs with SSDs and other flash based tech.

Then there are some extremely basic express card 34 adaptors that stopped working when Apple upgraded to SL. . . . Apple decided to leave a critical system file out that rendered a lot of Panasonic P2 users up $***'s creak.

I don't mind those personally, but I do hate that Apple will refuse to work on a fix from their end even if the problem is an OSX issue.

The funny thing is Apple pretty much just screwed themselves. 90% of the apple community will not be reading these websites and finding out there was new methodology in their testing. The majority of customers will just think that Apple has put in lower quality batteries in their laptops.

I don't think a majority of the community will care. I would put cold hard cash money on most laptop buyers never unplugging their machines at all.

 

[macguy360]

I think they actually thought about it for a quick second, then just assumed Mac Pro owners are made of money. I am sure Steve just said that they can just drop another $4000 on a new workstation.

Sadly, I know many will do just that even with their newly acquired 12 core towers.



I think AMD will have to get the tech from Intel to put into their mobos, or just leave it out like many have down with FW800.



Yes, and I am drooling all over myself right now. I just found my new scratch disk unless G-Technology or DataRobotics and put out a 6 bay enclosure in the next month.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Apple as taking advantage of consumers on this one. I really think that the entire motherboard has to be designed in such a way as to use the thunderbolt. Can PCIE handle the kind of bandwidth that thunderbolt has? Consider that there might to be an entire change on the channels of the board.

This situation is like blaming a computer manufacturer when ram went from DDR2 to DDR3 that it was somehow the computer manufacturers fault trying to screw customers to buy a new computer to handle the new ram. There are a lot of things that can be upgraded but when it comes to bandwidth, your stuck with the limitations of the motherboard your using.

 

[Eidorian]

I don't think a majority of the community will care. I would put cold hard cash money on most laptop buyers never unplugging their machines at all.

I am just about to hit 90 cycles if you count the fact I have had two batteries in the nearly 4 years.

I wouldn't be so quick to judge Apple as taking advantage of consumers on this one. I really think that the entire motherboard has to be designed in such a way as to use the thunderbolt. Can PCIE handle the kind of bandwidth that thunderbolt has? Consider that there might to be an entire change on the channels of the board.

It already is using PCIe. I believe that the limiting factor is going to be the inclusion of FDI with the H6x variant PCH so you can also pipe video over the cable in addition to other data.

A few questions we should be asking is what GPU is used for video output over ThunderBolt and if there is any GPU switching going on between the discrete solution or IGP.