There are USB drivers for NT4 out in the wild, with various levels of stability. I had the 250MB USB Zip drive back in the day, which came with NT4 USB drivers but not hot swappable. I think they presented the Zip to the system as a pseudo-SCSI peripheral. If you are going to port a stack or driver over, you might end up with more work than swapping x86 calls for PPC ones.Somehow, NT4 x86 worked with SGI 320 or 540 machines. Which had USB keyboard & mouse. I wonder if it's theoretically possible to port USB stack drivers to PPC platform.
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NT on PowerPC Macs!
- Thread starter Rairii
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They weren't, for NT4 they included a backport of parts of the win2000 USB drivers, enough to support USB keyboard + mouse - but it's UHCI only so the lower level parts of the stack don't help me.
I plan to port a stack, but the issue is most NT USB stacks have multiple drivers, and I want the main functionality (OHCI, root hub, hub, keyboard, mouse, mass storage) in a single driver (as it has to be loaded in text setup, and having a single driver for all this would be easier than having several that need to be loaded in the correct order).
I can reuse the higher level parts (keyboard, mouse, mass storage) from my Wii port at least, but even planning out the driver API is going to take some time.
Not a programmer myself & personally I respect your efforts. But isn't this "putting all eggs in one basket" ?
It's the easiest solution given it needs to be loaded at setupldr time (for using USB keyboard at text setup, and being able to install NT directly from usb mass storage), so having one single driver is easier than having several drivers that must be loaded in a specific order. SGI320 did basically the same thing under NT4, although they only implemented USB keyboard and mouse support in one single driver.
It depends on which version of the NT kernel that ReactOS is targeting. If it's after NT 4, some reverse-engineering would need to be done.
The docs say "NT5 (Windows Server 2003)" but 5 was Win 2000 so that's a bit confusing. Still post-NT 4 though.
NT 5.2 specifically (Windows Server 2003), though right now they're looking towards Vista. It used to be targetting NT 4, though I don't know if they got to USB input drivers before they made the move.
unfortunately I do not own a G3 PowerMac anymore (only a bunch of G4s). luckily @Rairii has released binaries for NT PowerPC on Nintendo Gamecube & Wii:
github.com
I was unable to find a working installer for ClarisWorks 1.0 for Microsoft Windows PPC anywhere on the internet, so I made one: https://archive.org/details/claris-works-10-windows-ppc
GitHub - Wack0/entii-for-workcubes: PowerPC Windows NT ported to Nintendo GameCube/Wii/Wii U
PowerPC Windows NT ported to Nintendo GameCube/Wii/Wii U - Wack0/entii-for-workcubes
github.com
I was unable to find a working installer for ClarisWorks 1.0 for Microsoft Windows PPC anywhere on the internet, so I made one: https://archive.org/details/claris-works-10-windows-ppc
Been using this quite a bit on the Wii lately, trying to figure out what PPC software we can install/use, what 16-bit x86 software we can install and use, and finally through "Motorola SoftWindows 32" what 32-bit x86 software we can install and use. Is there a list of NT 4.0 software somewhere, both PPC and x86? Perhaps a sticky post or similar to assemble together all possible software like we do here for various OS X versions would be a really helpful addition.
It should be noted that at the end of March, @Rairii shared with us his efforts to update the native DirectX 2 PPC drivers with DirectX 5 x86 drivers, which works thanks to his tweaks as well as SoftWindows 32. With that I was able to play e.g. Falcom's "Vantage Master Online" (an offline strategy game, English localization of Vantage Master V2). I was genuinely astonished, it ran incredibly well on the "NTii".
These I suspect should work on Power Macs, as well.
Wish we could run this on the Mac mini G4 or the DLSD someday! (And I hope one day the GC/Wii/WiiU would be able to boot Mac OS 9.2.2 and earlier, nothing would beat that!)
It should be noted that at the end of March, @Rairii shared with us his efforts to update the native DirectX 2 PPC drivers with DirectX 5 x86 drivers, which works thanks to his tweaks as well as SoftWindows 32. With that I was able to play e.g. Falcom's "Vantage Master Online" (an offline strategy game, English localization of Vantage Master V2). I was genuinely astonished, it ran incredibly well on the "NTii".
These I suspect should work on Power Macs, as well.
Wish we could run this on the Mac mini G4 or the DLSD someday! (And I hope one day the GC/Wii/WiiU would be able to boot Mac OS 9.2.2 and earlier, nothing would beat that!)
List of all Windows 16-bit games - MobyGames
2,201 video games were released on Windows 16-bit from 1985 through 2020. They were developed by 23,477 people from 1,772 publishers and developers.
@repairedCheese Thank you, this is precisely among those things which I wondered if they existed. Would be great to find more things like that for utilities, and also a 32-bit x86 list (and a PPC list if there's one).
Just to make sure, both the installer you made as well as ClarisWorks 1.0 itself are actually x86 apps, right? Or is any of it PPC?
Despite being SO multiplatform originally, it does not seem Windows comes with pre-built tools for figuring out what is the binary language of the executable (PPC, 16-bit x86, 32-bit x86). But it seems that kind of data can be determined in general via a Hex Editor manually and checking for certain flags, or headers. Some 3rd party software for later Windows seem to be able to do just that, but nothing that will run on NT 4.0 SP2 itself (thus requiring files in another Windows machine to check) or that will do the check for multiple files at once (AFAIK). I'm still trying to figure it out in my spare time.
Also, ".msi" installers. Much software I can't get to even test because I cannot run these. I tried installing the required "Microsoft Installer" AKA "Windows Installer" versions 4.0, 3.1 (two of them), 3.0 and 2.0, but they all wouldn't install (although one of them "worked" enough to show me the usual .msi icon instead of generic windows file icon). I wonder if an ".msi to .exe" converter exists?
It honestly feels so adventurous to explore what even works or not with this previously-elusive operating system.
Just to make sure, both the installer you made as well as ClarisWorks 1.0 itself are actually x86 apps, right? Or is any of it PPC?
Despite being SO multiplatform originally, it does not seem Windows comes with pre-built tools for figuring out what is the binary language of the executable (PPC, 16-bit x86, 32-bit x86). But it seems that kind of data can be determined in general via a Hex Editor manually and checking for certain flags, or headers. Some 3rd party software for later Windows seem to be able to do just that, but nothing that will run on NT 4.0 SP2 itself (thus requiring files in another Windows machine to check) or that will do the check for multiple files at once (AFAIK). I'm still trying to figure it out in my spare time.
Also, ".msi" installers. Much software I can't get to even test because I cannot run these. I tried installing the required "Microsoft Installer" AKA "Windows Installer" versions 4.0, 3.1 (two of them), 3.0 and 2.0, but they all wouldn't install (although one of them "worked" enough to show me the usual .msi icon instead of generic windows file icon). I wonder if an ".msi to .exe" converter exists?
It honestly feels so adventurous to explore what even works or not with this previously-elusive operating system.
yup, unfortunately you're right! at the time of writing I was under the impression that this was a PPC binary...
Somehow I thought wx86 was pre-included with Window NT PPC all along, but it turns out it was a "separate" download from old Microsoft FTPs, and not for long at that, and will only work with NT 4.0 (no 3.51 let alone 3.5).
From what I understand, it's functionally identical to Motorola SoftWindows 32 (msw32), in that it's a transparent CPU translation layer for 32-bit x86 apps, akin to the 68k translator in PPC Mac OS, and Rosetta on OS X. So which one actually works better, and why? I keep getting the impression the Motorola one is supposed to be better (e.g. @Rairii explicitly mentioned running DirectX 5 under Motorola's, but not wx86), but that is not clear to me. Does anyone have a clue which one is better, and why?
In any case, when checking for 32-bit x86 compatibility in PPC NT, we have to consider each of these 2 separate solutions.
For the record, 16-bit ones are apparently handled by NTVDM + WOWEXEC in all versions of NT, which come pre-installed with all of them.
One question I also have is if we can install both wx86 and msw32, and be able to toggle either one of them on and off at will, without uninstalling/reinstalling. And preferably without having to rename files all the time...
Likewise, it'd also be good if there's a way to switch out from x86 DirectX 5 to PPC DirectX 2 at will. Games like Diablo (tested with Spawn / shareware version) won't even start with x86 DX5 for whatever reason, but at least gets somewhere with PPC DX2.
I never know for sure when something I'm running is PPC, 16-bit x86 or 32-bit x86.
From what I understand, it's functionally identical to Motorola SoftWindows 32 (msw32), in that it's a transparent CPU translation layer for 32-bit x86 apps, akin to the 68k translator in PPC Mac OS, and Rosetta on OS X. So which one actually works better, and why? I keep getting the impression the Motorola one is supposed to be better (e.g. @Rairii explicitly mentioned running DirectX 5 under Motorola's, but not wx86), but that is not clear to me. Does anyone have a clue which one is better, and why?
In any case, when checking for 32-bit x86 compatibility in PPC NT, we have to consider each of these 2 separate solutions.
For the record, 16-bit ones are apparently handled by NTVDM + WOWEXEC in all versions of NT, which come pre-installed with all of them.
One question I also have is if we can install both wx86 and msw32, and be able to toggle either one of them on and off at will, without uninstalling/reinstalling. And preferably without having to rename files all the time...
Likewise, it'd also be good if there's a way to switch out from x86 DirectX 5 to PPC DirectX 2 at will. Games like Diablo (tested with Spawn / shareware version) won't even start with x86 DX5 for whatever reason, but at least gets somewhere with PPC DX2.
I never know for sure when something I'm running is PPC, 16-bit x86 or 32-bit x86.
A couple of years, somebody uploaded their NT PPC collection onto archive.org. I think it was either deleted by the uploader or pulled for copyright etc. Otherwise, it's very slim pickings for native PPC software.
It was in this thread https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=71225
I suppose you could also have a play with this and see what it does for you https://archive.org/details/softwindows-32-powerpc-v1.01
It was in this thread https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=71225
I suppose you could also have a play with this and see what it does for you https://archive.org/details/softwindows-32-powerpc-v1.01
So what sorts of compilers are there for it, if any? I just did an install on my Lombard and would be curious to know.
One site with a PowerPC NT SDK is https://fsck.technology/software/Microsoft/
https://archive.org/details/VisualCRISC4.0RISC This exists. Might be useful for those who grew up with VC++
Yep, this works, and the exact same ISO is also there with identical checksum on WinWorldPC, but what they also have in there is its immediate still-PowerPC-based successor, Microsoft Visual C++ 4.0a (which reveals itself as version 4.1 when you actually run it to install it). This is the link: https://winworldpc.com/download/66c29de2-809c-c3b6-e280-93c39611c3a6
On x86 Windows computers, there's also @Rairii's fork of Retro68 to compile for Windows NT PowerPC, for those that would rather swing that way. Personally, I would prefer VC++4.1 for the GUI just as I do prefer CodeWarrior on Mac over Retro68. But quite many people can make great use of this.
Edit:
Interesting, that link offers a number of other potential software we could possibly use under PPC NT. One thing that caught my attention is "SDS SingleStep 7.5 PowerPC", a debugger for PowerPC machines, at least embedded ones, but will officially run on NT 4.0 and Solaris 2.5.1, both of which are also PowerPC systems, as well as on later versions of Solaris, HP-UX and Windows 95 and 98, which use other CPU architectures. So I don't know if the NT 4.0 (and Solaris 2.5.1) software in it are also offered as PowerPC binaries, but are regardless interesting to the cause.
Good find!
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I'd forgotten all about 4.0a. There was no updater available: you had to ring Microsoft and supply proof of purchase, and they'd post you a set of 4.0a install media. Things were certainly different in those days
In case anyone else finds it useful, I made a tiny program that tells you if a Windows app is PowerPC, x86 16-bit or x86 32-bit. Runs on PowerPC NT4 SP2 (PPC native app) or on various x86 Windows (x86 32-bit app).
Just drag and drop whatever files onto it, and if it's a Windows app (or DOS app, or OS/2 app), it will tell you that, and what kind. Works on DLLs etc., too, and will also tell you if the binary is MIPS, DEC Alpha, 64-bit x86 or whatever else it could possibly be. There's a readme included with more details, but that's about it.
Source code also included (single ANSI C89 file). All is attached to this post as a ZIP file. On PPC NT, unzip with either Info-Zip PPC or, at least on PPC NT4, with the x86 32-bit 7-Zip 9.20 (the ".exe") if you have either Wx86 or Motorola SoftWindows 32 installed.
Here's a screenshot to give you an idea:
I call it "Windows Binary Type Detector 1.0" (WBTD), but if I further work on this later (e.g. porting it to Mac OS 9 and System 7, because of VPC and dual-booting purposes), I might simply call it "WinBin Detect" or similar (and possibly host it in the Mac Garden in the future).
I was slightly surprised to see a number of 16-bit x86 apps among the "RISC" versions of NT 4.0 ("user.exe" or something, for example), although there might not be many: most I checked were native to their CPU architectures.
This also taught me there are supposedly two kinds of PPC binaries for Windows: Plain PowerPC, and "PowerPC with FPU". I never came across the latter, and the former is produced by VC++4.1 PPC, at least by default. I also discovered Windows CE (at least 2.x and 3.x) existed for PPC officially, usually on embedded-class CPUs without FPU, so I expected to see "regular" PPC apps on those and "with FPU" ones on NT 4, but... That wasn't the case. Does that mean PPC binaries not identified as "with FPU" necessarily are not making use of the PPC FPU whatsoever? That would be outrageous! And if true, I'd like to know how to compile some of those "with FPU" apps...
I hope others also find this software useful.
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