[NYT] 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid + GM Pulls Plug on 2009 Chevy Malibu Hybrid

[notjustjay]

On an individual level, I have a Ford Escape Hybrid. It's union built, in the USA, carries me, up to 4 other people, luggage or hockey equipment and can handle midwest/Rocky Mountain winters. I get twice the mileage I would have with a non-hybrid with similar abilities. I do hate the fact that the battery is going to be useless when it dies, not recyclable, but I was in a position to be an early adopter to support the idea that within 10 years we might get a really fantastic hybrid with more environmentally friendly chassis and battery materials, etc.

I keep looking at the Escape hybrid. I wonder, with this (and all other current hybrids) what happens when that battery pack dies? Like we're used to with laptops and power tools, I imagine the pack will just start to take on less and less of a charge as time goes on. So will your fuel economy slowly start to get worse? Does it degenerate nicely? Are you left with just a (slightly underpowered), essentially gas-powered car after the battery is dead? Can it run this way indefinitely, or are you always going to need to replace the battery packs every few years?

I think hybrid technology is a great idea, and if I just wanted to lease a vehicle, I'd definitely consider one. But to buy one and keep for a long time, I need to know the answers to questions like the above.

 

[MacNut]

Until they can get hybrid milage out of bigger vehicles I don't see them really taking off. If they could get full size trucks to get 30-40 mpg and still keep the horsepower then you will see the hybrid vehicles take off.

 

[dextertangocci]

Yes, you have successfully demonstrated that Americans are "tossers" for having bought a car that was available on the market in the US instead of one that is, to date, not available on the market in the US.

My point is, even if it was, Americans wouldn't buy it. They would rather buy some ugly hybrid.

Americans never did have very good taste in cars.

 

[wakka092]

Americans never did have very good taste in cars.

That's a ridiculous, extreme generalization.

I take pride in the vehicles made in my own country, by union workers. American cars are meeting and surpassing the imports/foreign cars in terms of quality. It makes me sick that people in the US hold no pride in supporting their own American industry.

 

[quagmire]

That's a ridiculous, extreme generalization.

I take pride in the vehicles made in my own country, by union workers. American cars are meeting and surpassing the imports/foreign cars in terms of quality. It makes me sick that people in the US hold no pride in supporting their own American industry.

I think he was criticizing how Americans can say the Camry, Accord, Yaris, Prius, Insight, and the latest Acura's are stylish when in most cases they are actually ugly POS's.

 

[dextertangocci]

I think he was criticizing how Americans can say the Camry, Accord, Yaris, Prius, Insight, and the latest Acura's are stylish when in most cases they are actually ugly POS's.

Thank you!

 

[mkrishnan]

Thank you!

Who says this? I actually live in the US and I can't think of a time that I've heard any of those praises applied to any of those vehicles...

 

[theBB]

The new VW Polo uses much less fuel than any hybrid and it is more powerful. You also don't come across as a tosser when you drive one.

Polo is much smaller than Camry, Civic, Civic Hybrid and Prius.

Prius has 1.8L engine on top of electric motor, I doubt Polo has a bigger engine.

Much less fuel? Is that based on UK testing or similar? I checked the numbers between US EPA and its UK equivalent for the exact same car, Opel/Vauxhall/Saturn Astra. UK numbers are vastly higher for the exact same car. UK definition is very optimistic and I guess their mile is different than ours. Oh, many gas stations inside US cities doesn't sell diesel, so if your estimate was based on diesels, then sorry, but it does not apply.

Those who call hybrid drivers smug, tosser etc online usually turn out to be fairly foul mouthed intolerant posters, so who cares...

 

[mahashel]

Not *all* us Americans like lumpy gas-guzzling cars.
I live in the USA, and I love my VW Rabbit.
If the diesel variant were available when I bought it, I would've gone that route instead of the 2.5l I ended up with.

 

[MacNut]

I think he was criticizing how Americans can say the Camry, Accord, Yaris, Prius, Insight, and the latest Acura's are stylish when in most cases they are actually ugly POS's.

I don't think most people care what their car looks like as long as it gets them from point a to point b.

 

[quagmire]

I don't think most people care what their car looks like as long as it gets them from point a to point b.

And that is a shame. People used to be so much more enthusiastic about the automobile. Now they think it is just another boring and bland toaster on wheels. I think this image describes what the automobile has become.

And for those who do have some enthusiasm for their cars, often time screw it up. The aka ricers and wannabes.

 

[MacNut]

People that care about the way their car looks are willing to spend more for it. The average person only uses a car to get too and from work so they don't care what it looks like. People that want a car to have fun in will take more pride in it and the way it looks. How many guys do you see polishing their Toyota Camry on the weekends. I bet you see more cleaning their F250 because they take pride in it.

 

[quagmire]

People that care about the way their car looks are willing to spend more for it. The average person only uses a car to get too and from work so they don't care what it looks like. People that want a car to have fun in will take more pride in it and the way it looks. How many guys do you see polishing their Toyota Camry on the weekends. I bet you see more cleaning their F250 because they take pride in it.

I hand wash my Saturn Aura. I take great care of it and I care how it looks. Yeah, it is an average family mid-size sedan, but I love it. Put better tires on it and put synthetic oil in the engine.

But sadly, I am a dying breed of Americans. As long as a car is not Aztek ugly, they'll buy it.

 

[Abstract]

Who says this? I actually live in the US and I can't think of a time that I've heard any of those praises applied to any of those vehicles...

Me neither.

People who mock all those Americans who, supposedly, love the looks of the Prius, Yaris, Camry (???), Accord, etc etc, rather than other qualities, are doing so as an ineffective method to convince others that their reason for liking Japanese cars, rather than American cars, is wrong. In reality, none of the people who love Camrys and Accords do so because they think they're stylish, so this particular method of mocking Americans for their preference of Japanese cars is actually quite baseless. If Americans are basing their preference for Japanese cars on (suppposed) non-truths, then why try to convince Americans of this by mocking these people using non-truths?

It's also funny that these people are also saying that Americans, who supposedly don't care about a car's appearance anymore (which isn't true) and treat cars as applicances, are also the people who supposedly praise Camrys, Accords, and "Yarii" for their looks (which isn't true either). If they didn't care about appearance, then they wouldn't have bought Japanese cars for their looks.

 

[dextertangocci]

Polo is much smaller than Camry, Civic, Civic Hybrid and Prius.

Prius has 1.8L engine on top of electric motor, I doubt Polo has a bigger engine.

Much less fuel? Is that based on UK testing or similar? I checked the numbers between US EPA and its UK equivalent for the exact same car, Opel/Vauxhall/Saturn Astra. UK numbers are vastly higher for the exact same car. UK definition is very optimistic and I guess their mile is different than ours. Oh, many gas stations inside US cities doesn't sell diesel, so if your estimate was based on diesels, then sorry, but it does not apply.

Those who call hybrid drivers smug, tosser etc online usually turn out to be fairly foul mouthed intolerant posters, so who cares...

Here are some specs of the VW Bluemotion Polo:

The BlueMotion concept uses an updated 1.2L three cylinder TDI diesel, with 74 hp. Combined with 15-inch low rolling resistance tires, a blanked off grille, extended rocker panels for lower drag, automatic start stop, and brake energy regeneration. The bottom line is 71.3 mpg (US) and 87 g/km of CO2 emissions. That makes the new BlueMotion the most efficient five passenger internal combustion car on the road.


Link:

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/0...agen-reveals-polo-bluemotion-concept-87-g-km/


The Polo also comes in a 1.9l version, which trumps the Prius in terms of performance, looks and fuel consumption.


Hybrid cars are technically flawed and ugly, and their drivers have no proper knowledge of cars.

 

[takao]

Much less fuel? Is that based on UK testing or similar? I checked the numbers between US EPA and its UK equivalent for the exact same car, Opel/Vauxhall/Saturn Astra. UK numbers are vastly higher for the exact same car. UK definition is very optimistic and I guess their mile is different than ours. Oh, many gas stations inside US cities doesn't sell diesel, so if your estimate was based on diesels, then sorry, but it does not apply.

US and UK gallons are different (UK is bigger) ... which of course explains why l/100km is always superior


and while it's true that the Polo isn't available in the US ... the Camry was a utter failure in sales in europe which is why it isn't on the market anymore

 

[Mousse]

I think he was criticizing how Americans can say the Camry, Accord, Yaris, Prius, Insight, and the latest Acura's are stylish when in most cases they are actually ugly POS's.

I think it has more to do with them being among the most reliable cars available in the US. I've NEVER, EVER heard a single owner of any of those cars brag about how good they look. OTOH, I hear plenty of how reliable they are. "300,000 problems free miles so far." "More reliable than the sun rise." "Can't trust my Government, but I can trust my car." blah blah blah.

 

[blitzkrieg79]

Here is my problem with hybrids - and please someone correct me if I am wrong with some counterpoints...

Its hard to find the real truth out there b/c there are some many powerful forces out there - between the marketing machines that are the car companies and their lobbyists, the politicians and their do-anything-to-look-good-even-if-it-doesn't-really-work attitude, etc

I have heard both ways, but based on my research, it seems like hybrids really aren't the answer in terms of efficiency, return on the investment (not the car,itself, but the upgrade to hybrid versions), or even "green" status.

If you are speaking from the wallet, most of these cars needed like 5 years to pay back the difference in cost upfront vs the gas savings. Some of these calculations may have been based on replacing batteries at some high mileage interval, and I understand the batteries are improving but still... 5 years? Plus when you consider the future value of the cash (even put in a savings account or bond...)... point is, i'm not sure the savings is there dollar for dollar, until gas hits some crazy high (like, much more than 4 bucks a gallon).

So then some might argue, well even with a break even or small loss, I am saving the environment. However I have read that the both energy and resources required to manufacture these batteries, ship them back and forth across the globe, and then eventually dispose of them far outweighs the lowered emissions the car will cut back on. (again, the origins of these arguments could be with neutral people, could be the oil companies, who knows!)

I tend to believe the above as building anything (much less toxic batteries) requires lots of energy, both in production and shipping. Plus, its not like they are saving energy by putting in batteries INSTEAD of regular engines. Its in ADDITION to...

Anyway, I am becoming a bit cynical (paranoid?) towards the hybrid cars in general. It seems "green" is a hot term right now, and everyone is trying to cash in. Some are really good products, some are downright misleading. You basically have people paying 25K for a fricken' economy car (im looking at you prius) that looks like a potato (low blow and my opinion I know). Seems like a pretty good trick on the part of the auto makers, though basically in our worst interest from an environment and financial perspective.

Wheew, that was long. But I thought this was a good place to vent lol. And I don't say any of the above to be inflammatory. I just think the truth is not so easy to get and I question whats being put out there...

I pretty much agree with what you have stated. Hybrids are more of a marketing gimmick than anything else. They don't save environment (development/recycling of batteries), they are thousands of dollars more expensive than their gasoline only powered counterparts, plus most important of all, they lack soul (ACCELERATION)...

Anyway, speaking of which: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHepjwCsLfs

I love this commercial and the sound of Prius engine

Reality is that if anything a diesel hybrid would be the most viable solution. Diesel engine cars of Fusion/Camry size have been getting over 40MPG for some time now in Europe, plus diesels actually put MORE fun into driving than taking it out like hybrids do.