Office Apps (Word, Excel, and Powerpoint) Won't Open

[honestone33]

You seem to have an issue reading. The folder was created becuase you restored from a backup that came from and older OS. I never said or implied that the folder was on your computer while running Mojave. Catalina created the folder becuse applications that where installed on Mojave where restored to Catalina.

If you do a clean install with no backup you won't get this folder.

You have trouble reading, especially when I state it so clearly. The "migration/copying/transferring" (again, whatever you want to call it) DID not come from a BACKUP. It came from my Mac Mini.

Also, I did not do a restore. But if migrate/copy/transfer/restore all mean the same, that would be crazy, to say the least!

Now, you stated "The folder was created because you restored from a backup that came from and older OS.". So, are you telling me that if and when I decide to permanently "move" to Catalina from Mojave, if I do the transfer from a SuperDuper! (and Mojave "based") backup, Catalina will place "everything" inside the Relocated Items folder? That did not happen, ONLY items that I had inside that Documents folder.

I am willing to bet that if I have the Documents folder at a "lower" level, it will get copied just fine, with the need for a "Relocated Items" folder. If that works, then my original statement about Catalina would still stand, ie, it is deficient.
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You said every install has the folder which isn't true. I'm saying that if you do a fresh install either a new computer or an existing on and don't use a backup then you won't have the folder.

I did not say "You said every install has the folder". And of course if I do a clean installation of Catalina onto a machine and not bring over anything else, then yes, that folder would not get created, as there would be nothing to relocate. (Jeez, how many times do I need to say that?).

But again, that is NOT what I want to do. I do want my apps, settings, folders, documents, etc.

And again, just to be clear: since I want to do a clean, fresh, virgin installation of Catalina, the destination drive/partition must be empty. That of course is rather basic. But after that installation, I do not want to be left with "nothing". I want all all my apps, documents, files. folders, data, settings, etc.

 

[iApplereviews]

You have trouble reading, especially when I state it so clearly. The "migration/copying/transferring" (again, whatever you want to call it) DID not come from a BACKUP. It came from my Mac Mini.

Also, I did not do a restore. But if migrate/copy/transfer/restore all mean the same, that would be crazy, to say the least!

Now, you stated "The folder was created because you restored from a backup that came from and older OS.". So, are you telling me that if and when I decide to permanently "move" to Catalina from Mojave, if I do the transfer from a SuperDuper! (and Mojave "based") backup, Catalina will place "everything" inside the Relocated Items folder? That did not happen, ONLY items that I had inside that Documents folder.

I am willing to bet that if I have the Documents folder at a "lower" level, it will get copied just fine, with the need for a "Relocated Items" folder. If that works, then my original statement about Catalina would still stand, ie, it is deficient.
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I did not say "You said every install has the folder". And of course if I do a clean installation of Catalina onto a machine and not bring over anything else, then yes, that folder would not get created, as there would be nothing to relocate. (Jeez, how many times do I need to say that?).

But again, that is NOT what I want to do. I do want my apps, settings, folders, documents, etc.

If you transfer something from an older version of the OS it may get placed there. I didn’t say everything would be placed there. Try reading the document that’s actually in the folder that tells you what it’s for before you start trying to explain it here.

 

[Ruggy]

Your original error says not enough memory although you have plenty-so let's go back to that.
There are two things you can perhaps look at:
1. Your memory is very fragmented. It is possible as you've done a new install or upgraded or something, it maybe that there are files scattered all over the place so it can't find a big enough chunk to use. I realise it means RAM but that can get fragmented too. It's an odd one but it might be an area to think about?
2. If you go into the preferences of Word, there should be a setting which allows you to allocate memory to open documents (I haven't used Word for a while though). It maybe that somehow it's defaulted to a tiny setting?
Of course, neither of those may help- it's always just a case of giving ideas and trying to think of things to try when you haven't got the thing in front of you. But I'd have a look along those lines.

 

[honestone33]

If you transfer something from an older version of the OS it may get placed there. I didn’t say everything would be placed there. Try reading the document that’s actually in the folder that tells you what it’s for before you start trying to explain it here.

Finally, you stated something that is valid!: "If you transfer something from an older version of the OS it may get placed there.". That is what I have been saying all along, ie, that Documents folder I have always had on all my Macs could not be "properly" handled by Catalina, ie, it did not know where to initially place it. So Catalina created the folder entitled "Relocated Items", and thus relocated that Documents folder from the "same level" as the 4 "basic" folders (Applications, System, Library, and Users) on my Mojave-based Mac Mini (that is where I migrated files, etc. from) to a location within the Relocated Items folder. For ANY Mac OS prior to Catalina, that never happened. The Documents folder got placed in its correct location.

Remember, you are the one that originally stated that the "Relocated Items" folder does not get created on a clean, fresh installation of Catalina. But it looks like you are definitely wrong about that.

I'm not sure if, on my Catalina "system", I can create that Documents folder at the "same level" as the 4 "basic" folders (Applications, System, Library, and Users), and move all the items in the Documents folder within the "Relocated Items" folder to that one I created. I will have to try that.

 

[dsemf]

...
Remember, you are the one that originally stated that the "Relocated Items" folder does not get created on a clean, fresh installation of Catalina. But it looks like you are definitely wrong about that.
...

A clean install does not create Relocated Items. There is nothing to relocate. Subsequent data migrations (of any type) will create Relocated Items if necessary. On one machine, I did a clean install and manual migration. Relocated Items was not created. On another machine I did an upgrade from Mojave and it did have a Relocated Items.

What is the purpose of having a Documents structure outside of the /User tree?

The first level of the directory structure is in the read only volume. This is why you cannot place Documents at the first level.

dmba:/ xxx$ df -g .
Filesystem   1G-blocks Used Available Capacity iused      ifree %iused  Mounted on
/dev/disk1s6       465   10       282     4%  483615 4882993305    0%   /

As you can see, the / location is a 10GB APFS volume. Running diskutil list confirms the /dev/desk1s6 is the read only volume.

Most of the remaining directories at the first level have a firmlink (a new link type) that links to the read/write APFS data volume.

If I cd to /Users, the df output shows that everything within /Users is on the read/write APFS volume.

dmba:Users xxx$ df -g .
Filesystem   1G-blocks Used Available Capacity iused      ifree %iused  Mounted on
/dev/disk1s5       465  158       282    36%  650174 4882826746    0%   /System/Volumes/Data

If you want to retain the independent Documents concept, one idea is to create a document APFS volume. It will be mounted at /Volumes. Here is one I created called GlobalDoc.

dmba:Users xxx$ cd /Volumes
dmba:Volumes xxx$ ll
total 0
drwxr-xr-x   8 root  wheel  256 Dec  2 16:19 ./
drwxr-xr-x  24 root  admin  768 Oct 29 16:44 ../
drwxr-xr-x   3 root  wheel   96 Nov 22 00:06 .timemachine/
lrwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel    1 Nov 11 10:05 Catalina HD@ -> /
drwxrwxr-x   6 das   staff  192 Dec  2 15:42 GlobalDoc/
drwxr-xr-x@  4 root  wheel  128 Oct 29 16:49 Recovery/
drwxr-xr-x   4 root  wheel  272 Aug 22 10:07 Time Machine Backups/
drwxr-xr-x   3 root  wheel   96 Oct 29 16:33 com.apple.TimeMachine.localsnapshots/

Once it is mounted, you may need to do a Get Info in Finder and set Ignore ownership.

This approach does change the path from /Documents to /Volumes/Documents, but it allows you to retain the user independent content.

DS

 

[iApplereviews]

Your original error says not enough memory although you have plenty-so let's go back to that.
There are two things you can perhaps look at:
1. Your memory is very fragmented. It is possible as you've done a new install or upgraded or something, it maybe that there are files scattered all over the place so it can't find a big enough chunk to use. I realise it means RAM but that can get fragmented too. It's an odd one but it might be an area to think about?
2. If you go into the preferences of Word, there should be a setting which allows you to allocate memory to open documents (I haven't used Word for a while though). It maybe that somehow it's defaulted to a tiny setting?
Of course, neither of those may help- it's always just a case of giving ideas and trying to think of things to try when you haven't got the thing in front of you. But I'd have a look along those lines.

Can’t even get word open to get to settings. Also if files to open the app where scattered wouldn’t deleting the app and reinstalling fix that.

 

[honestone33]

A clean install does not create Relocated Items. There is nothing to relocate. Subsequent data migrations (of any type) will create Relocated Items if necessary. On one machine, I did a clean install and manual migration. Relocated Items was not created. On another machine I did an upgrade from Mojave and it did have a Relocated Items.

I know that. That is, the clean installation does not create that folder. But why would I do a clean installation of the newer Mac OS without migrating "data" (of any type)? After doing the clean installation, I want to be ready to use my Mac like I did before the clean installation. That obviously (and logically) involves "obtaining" apps, settings, etc. That's the purpose of the clean installation offering one to migrate "data" either from a backup, or another Mac.

I have never done a manual migration, as I take advantage of the installation process offering the ability to migrate "data" from either a Backup, or another Mac. That has always worked real well for me, and flawlessly. It is obvious that Catalina does not "like" the location of my Documents folder, and thus that is why it gets "moved" to a subfolder within the "Relocated Items" folder.

What is the purpose of having a Documents structure outside of the /User tree?

I want to be able to store, retrieve, and update some files, folders, etc. Having another Documents folder at that "level" makes that process easy and convenient.

The first level of the directory structure is in the read only volume. This is why you cannot place Documents at the first level.

I assume that is valid in Catalina only. I have always been able to access that Documents folder at the same "level" as the basic 4, n matter which Mac OS I have been using. And also the migration of all "needed" data has also gone exactly as planned, with that Documents folder winding up in the same location as the prior OS.

I of course do not know Apple's reasoning for the change, but they have taken away of allowing me to do something personal on my personal computer. It has never been an issue before.

I wonder what would happen if I named that Documents folder differently.

 

[dsemf]

I assume that is valid in Catalina only. I have always been able to access that Documents folder at the same "level" as the basic 4, n matter which Mac OS I have been using. And also the migration of all "needed" data has also gone exactly as planned, with that Documents folder winding up in the same location as the prior OS.

I of course do not know Apple's reasoning for the change, but they have taken away of allowing me to do something personal on my personal computer. It has never been an issue before.

I wonder what would happen if I named that Documents folder differently.

As I understand it, the primary reason is improved security. With /System along with / being read only, the attack vectors for malware have been reduced. The side effect is that the ability to create new top level directories is no longer possible.

At this point I see three possibilities.

1. Stay on Mojave.
2. Implement a global Documents area using a separate APFS volume mounted at /Volumes/Documents.
3. Try the following idea.

This is a more technical approach that might work. I have not tested this nor do I plan to.

The first step is to implement approach #2 listed above.

The magic step is to boot into recovery mode, mount the read only volume as read/write, and create a symbolic link from the root of the read only volume to /Volumes/Documents. You may also need to disable SIP to this. It may also require a hard link instead of a symbolic link since it traverses mount points.

The idea is to make /Volumes/Documents look like /Documents.


DS

 

[honestone33]

As I understand it, the primary reason is improved security. With /System along with / being read only, the attack vectors for malware have been reduced. The side effect is that the ability to create new top level directories is no longer possible.

Based on what I just did, that makes sense.

In my previous post above, I mentioned the possibility of "moving" that Documents folder to another location. So, what I did was a create a new folder within the Users folder entitled "Needed Documents", moved everything from that Documents folder to the "Needed Documents" one, and removed the (now empty) Documents folder. I then went ahead and 1) Erased and Formatted the external Samsung SSD containing Catalina (and all my "previously copied/migrated stuff"), 2) did a fresh, clean installation of Catalina, OS 10.15.1, onto that SSD, and 3) migrated all my "stuff" from the internal SSD on my Mac Mini (where I made the "Documents" folder change). Low and behold, when I got to that Catalina desktop, that "Needed Documents" folder was EXACTLY where I expected it to be, within the Users folder. But a "Relocated Items" folder was still created, and I did not really recognize the "stuff" in it. It certainly did not contain anything I created (at least not "directly"). Maybe some apps created some of that "stuff". I don't know.

I am hoping that I do not need to do anything with items inside the "Relocated Items" folder. I have done some previous limited testing of Catalina with a good amount of my applications (I use a fair amount of them), and everything worked fine. I will do some more limited testing, and most likely will need to do the same once OS 10.15.2 is released. Given that Micromat does not yet have a Catalina-compatible version of TechTool Pro yet, I will wait to "fully move" to Catalina. My Mojave environment is just fine as is.