Older computers usable today

[repairedCheese]

Which proves that the upgrade was very worthwhile. Some upgrades I did to my PCs were less so.

Right now I'm in the process of upgrading a laptop of mine that might as well be a desktop. Going from an I7-2620 to an I7-2929, and a Quadro 3000M to a Quadro K4000M. It's not on my list of desktops, but given how powerful it was in its day, and the fact that the new video card is still supported, I can absolutely tell you that the worth all depends on how much you're spending.

Also, old Dell workstations are kind of amazing to work on? I've had it open before to redo the thermal paste, and it's just so nice to have instructions on how to take everything apart.

 

[iluvmacs99]

Id say anyone over the age of 50, especially if they are rural or low income (or both) you'll find a reluctance to use computers outright - it's outside of their lexicon and the money it takes up front to purchase and in monthly maintenance (broadband for example) is prohibitive. Now add home schooling into that mix and caregivers are essentially forced out of work and you have a population of people who are truly stuck economically - real, current day economic enslavement to a government welfare state.

The stress to an already tedious and fragile low income family unit that "remote learning" has brought is tragic really. It's unthoughtful - really quite bourgeois when you dive into it. The notion of remote learning dismisses an entire lower income and rural demographic of our nation spanning millions of people - children, parents, caregivers etc. leaving them to the whims of welfare state bureaucrats that want to "help" them.

The real answer is get kids back to school but I digress. My kids haven't missed a day of school through COVID19 and are absolutely fine, but I am lucky enough to pay through the nose for weekly tuition (practically going broke myself lol), not in a forced situation of having to rely on pathetic, spineless, gutless partisan bureaucrats to get their collective heads out of their rear ends. Millions of hard working Americans are not as lucky and do not have that option unfortunately. In otherwords, millions of our Fellow Americans are getting completely and utterly screwed by the US welfare state & gutless partisan operators.

On a side note, I am using my mac minig4 . 10.5.8. Leopard webkit to post this. My work computer is a i7 optiplex, so plenty of grunt to do zoom and the like.

Income inequality and also social inequality have existed in many countries and while I had worked in nursing with many low income people, sometimes working Pro Bono because I felt so compelled to help them. So in regards to affordable computers, my viewpoint when I was working at the recycling facility was slightly different from the others as someone who sells used computers to the public. I was more compassionate and understanding and that sometimes, I would find ways for low income people who just don't have the luxury to afford the right computer get the computer for their needs. Some people who had never worked with low income people have this hypocritical view that anything is affordable, because these people never lived with low income and don't know how tough it is living with low income. Many of these low income people are not lazy people, but the economy is simply not large and diverse and fair enough to allow many of them have the participation rights into the whatever dream any country sells to its people and get paid decently well for it. I mean living on minimum wage isn't fair. The income inequality creates imbalances that is TOP HEAVY, which favors the rich.

Despite the tragedy COVID brought to the lives of many people in the world, for lack of a better word, COVID brought social awareness to the front page news and many countries had introduced forced solutions to help low income people and some countries and politicians had to make drastic decisions to help low income people that would otherwise be unthinkable pre-COVID, deferred, buried and ignored as though it does not exist.

I live in Canada where our government actually gave $2000/month to people in need for a total of $14,000 if you fully qualified for. That helped stabilized the Canadian economy and allow most low income people to actually buy a good enough computer, so kids could attend online schooling. It took COVID to force our government to become proactive to give out money. I think giving out money to people is necessary and it isn't bad, because our economy is 2/3 consumer based and for them to get the money allow many of these low income families to buy things that they would otherwise couldn't buy and thus stimulate the economy. Besides why does rich people need to get more money during the pandemic?!? I mean, the rich is rich already; so why does Wall street get more bail out money?!? I mean, the rich had already bought everything that they could have bought. Why not give some of that money to the poor so they can help circulate that money? You see; ideas like this wouldn't come to light until COVID appeared.

Yeah, when I watch the Americans, I scratch my head. America is the greatest wealthy nation in the world and the most technologically advanced with a lot of billionaires compared to Canada, but I found it out that they weren't as generous as Canadians and some European countries in giving money out freely to people who are starving and lining up the streets for food. America seemed to be much more generous in bailing out Wallstreet and less than generous in bailing out Main street where many Americans are in need of help.

 

[iluvmacs99]

I'm not sure where you live, but here in Idaho things are already back to normal. Wasn't much different for me anyways, as my job cannot be done from home.
Though Idaho's governor tried to put in a stay at home order (which expired a long time ago) the majority of us didn't abide, and it was said to be un-enforceable by most the law enforcement agencies.
Even our neighbors in Spokane, Wa which is ran by Inslee is starting to go back to normal. I can't speak for Seattle, but the west side of the state isn't putting up with the Seattle lifestyle.

Yeah, I know quite a few elderly people that hate using computers or even phones. Luckily most of them are retired already. My grandmother lives in Portland, OR. The covid thing would've just put her out of work entirely if she wasn't already retired. She has had the same Dell laptop for 10 years and still doesn't know how to use it.

I live in Canada and we did have a lockdown early on during the pandemic and only after the curve was flattened did we started to open up. So in a way, we managed the pandemic very similar to many European countries.
Having said that, what we differ compared to the Americans is that, we did get a series of $2000/month stimulus payment plus in some provinces, tax free money and credits, during the lockdown. It was very easy to apply, but it's done online and you need a direct deposit. It was so easy that, once you applied, it only took no less than 3 business days to have the money show up. That helped a lot of Canadians and basically was instrumental in helping many Canadians upgrade or buy things they actually could not afford, including modern computers to allow them to work at home and for their kids to do online schooling. It helped drive sales in Home Depot, Best Buy, Costco, Amazon and so on and actually helped the economy stabilize and save a lot of jobs. In fact, sales during COVID outbeat sales pre-COVID. What I found to be interesting in America is that, the government seemed to be more generous in bailing out Wallstreet, but less than generous in bailing out Mainstreet and failing businesses.

 

[sparty411]

@repairedCheese As I understand it, the competition went like this:

Pentium Pro = PowerPC 604
Pentium II = PowerPC 750
Pentium III = PowerPC 7400
Pentium 4 = PowerPC 7450
Pentium 4 HT = PowerPC 970

Each line competed with its opposite in marketing, rough comparable performance scale, and time period.

And most all Pentium 4 computers manufactured after 2003 possess Hyper Threading, Intel 64, and SSE3, making them compatible with pretty much everything today, with acceptable performance to boot (unlike certain capability-similar platforms which were afforded just a comparatively paltry 6 years of support total ) ...

@TheShortTimer had once put it best ...

Ain't that the truth. The late Pentium 4 Prescott's were power hungry; but performance was decent, and the SSE3 instruction gives modern software a decent performance boost over its pedecessor, Northwood. I'm typing this comment on a Pentium 4 670 machine running Windows 10, using Brave browser, and it works brilliantly well.

 

[repairedCheese]

Ain't that the truth. The late Pentium 4 Prescott's were power hungry; but performance was decent, and SSE3 instructions gives modern software a decent performance improvement over the Northwood predecessors. I'm typing this comment on a Pentium 4 670 machine running Windows 10, using Brave browser, and it works brilliantly well.

You're running Microsoft's latest OS on a cpu that Wikipedia says was released in May 2005. The Early 2005 Powermac G5 systems were all released in April. I just want to take that all in. I can't imagine it's the fasted thing, but with enough ram and an ssd? It's probably not terrible.

 

[sparty411]

You're running Microsoft's latest OS on a cpu that Wikipedia says was released in May 2005. The Early 2005 Powermac G5 systems were all released in April. I just want to take that all in. I can't imagine it's the fasted thing, but with enough ram and an ssd? It's probably not terrible.

I have 4GB of RAM (32 bit edition), and a 512GB SSD. Its fast enough for browsing the web, playing old games, watching youtube, etc.. Having a relatively modern GPU to decode video / render web pages helps quite a bit.

 

[repairedCheese]

I have 4GB of RAM (32 bit edition), and a 512GB SSD. Its fast enough for browsing the web, playing old games, watching youtube, etc.. Having a relatively modern GPU to decode video / render web pages helps quite a bit.

That makes sense as a setup. I had a Core 2 system in a similar configuration, and the 16-bit app support was surprisingly impressive, on top of being able to do perfectly modern things with it.

 

[weckart]

And I can tell you, each desktop I've gone through has felt like a massive leap in power. But it means the only time I ever got to use a Pentium 4 was either on a public computer, or through a laptop, and it never gave me an idea how powerful they could be. Or couldn't be, considering.

I have three or four P4 systems that I salvaged from a friend's office clearout, including one of these



An attempt at an educational AIO with a screen that slides up and down for height adjustment. It shipped with Vista. The P4 worked just as well as the G5 as a space heater. Power by brute force rather than refinement.

 

[Amethyst1]

An attempt at an educational AIO [...] It shipped with Vista.

Which might suggest it was released in 2007 at the earliest. Why no C2D then?

 

[weckart]

Which might suggest it was released in 2007 at the earliest. Why no C2D then?

Educational, I suppose. Those always get the dog end of the specs. They went on to do C2D builds too.

 

[Amethyst1]

Educational, I suppose. Those always get the dog end of the specs.

Bring on teh Celeron

 

[Baldilocks]

My Commodore VIC-20 still fires up and loads tapes and cartridges.

 

[Amethyst1]

You're running Microsoft's latest OS on a cpu that Wikipedia says was released in May 2005.

I had Windows 10 on a 1.6 GHz Pentium M. 2 GB RAM, SSD. The biggest problem was no drivers for the GMA 900.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

My Commodore VIC-20 still fires up and loads tapes and cartridges.

Eyyy! I own a VIC too! Any idea about what version yours is?

I had Windows 10 on a 1.6 GHz Pentium M. 2 GB RAM, SSD. The biggest problem was no drivers for the GMA 900.

I remember I had a ThinkPad T42p as a kid. It had a Pentium M and it ran Windows 7 flawlessly. I was really foolish to get rid of it, hopefully I can find another one at some point.

 

[Baldilocks]

Eyyy! I own a VIC too! Any idea about what version yours is?

I remember I had a ThinkPad T42p as a kid. It had a Pentium M and it ran Windows 7 flawlessly. I was really foolish to get rid of it, hopefully I can find another one at some point.

I'd have to take a look when I get home. I know it's a very early one.

 

[Amethyst1]

I remember I had a ThinkPad T42p

Mine was an X41. Should not have sold it

 

[RogerWilco6502]

I'd have to take a look when I get home. I know it's a very early one.

Ok, cool! I know mine is a US first revision and I believe it is a pretty early model given it says it was made in the US (and IIRC only earlier VICs were made in the US). I'll be interested to hear what yours is.

Mine was an X41. Should not have sold it

I have an X40 now. I actually don't know what happened to my T42p, it just sorta disappeared one day. >.>

 

[weckart]

I remember I had a ThinkPad T42p as a kid. It had a Pentium M and it ran Windows 7 flawlessly. I was really foolish to get rid of it, hopefully I can find another one at some point.

T4x Thinkpads come up every now and then but the p revisions are very sought after. Particularly the T42p, which I believe was the last fully IBM Thinkpad. The T43 had a bigger Lenovo input IIRR. I have been after a T42p for a while but sadly so are many others with deeper pockets.

 

[rafark]

So in another thread, the topic about PPC macs being usable today came up yet again. Particularly the one video we all (sarcasm) love so much about a quad G5 and a 2006 Intel Mini.

That got me thinking; we all talk about how PPC macs can definitely be made usable for us today, even on youtube though it can be a pain. Most of us will agree that the number 1 limitation for our hobby is the software, not the outdated hardware. I wanted to test this in a very "average use" like way.

Right now I am typing this on an IBM NetVIsta PC made around 2000 or 2001. A machine made the same time as most our beloved PPCs. It originally came with Windows 98, and a 1.5Ghz Pentium 4. Today, it is running with a 2.6Ghz Pentium 4, and Windows 7 with the latest, official version of FireFox quantum 80.0.1 at time of writing.
It has 1GB of ram, a GeForce 6200, and a 10GB Hard drive because that's what I had laying around when I set this up. I believe the drive is a bottleneck for the system.
On paper, that 2.6Ghz P4 should be fast. I honestly cannot tell a difference between it and the 1.5Ghz one that was in here before it.
This machine is the closest I could think of to compare a PPC with modern architecture. Being as its x86 it can obviously run a lot of software our old macs can't.
View attachment 956651View attachment 956649View attachment 956652
To start, I went directly to youtube. It was actually very, very slow. It felt about the same as using TenFourFox on a 1.5Ghz G4 PowerBook. Even typing this feels pretty slow. I feel like I'm using a slower G4.
I don't generally go to youtube on PPC macs, but I visit this site quite a bit on them. This forum when viewed on my dual 1.8Ghz G5 is much more responsive than this Pentium 4 at 70% higher clockspeed than the G5. I'm sure the extra CPU core is an advantage there though. I can say the same about my dual 1.42MDD. Using this IBM right now feels about the speed of using my 1Ghz iMac G4, which I would think is a much slower computer on paper than this one is.
View attachment 956648
Now I haven't done any optimizations on this PC at all, and like I said this old 10GB HDD is pretty paltry for Win7. I know how to optimize Windows pretty well, and that this computer isn't quite yet at it's full potential. That said I feel confident saying that certain PPC macs, are actually more usable than this PC with a modern OS, and modern browser out of the box.

I want to do a better test than this, with a larger more modern drive. Maybe even an SSD. There is only 2GB free space on this thing which has a huge impact on performance; do all the Windows tweaks for performance, max out the ram, this should be able to fit 1.5GB in it, as it has 3 ram slots like a QS PowerMac. I wanted to run some benchmarks but I don't think it would be a fair comparison with this HDD in it right now.

The bottleneck is probably the ram. Modern websites use a LOT of ram. It’s not uncommon for a web app like YouTube to use half a gb or more.

 

[sanfrancisofont1984]

YouTube playback is a complex one for testing a computer's performance.

In ancient times it used flash player. IIRC, flash actually did a decent job utilizing hardware video decoding so everyone was happy?

Right now it would try to serve VP9 encoded video most of time unless the browser does not support it (e.g. Safari before Big Sur). And most browsers on non-Windows platform does not enable hardware video decoding because high CPU usage is better than a crashed browser or a hosed system.

I also suspect that Intel CPUs received better optimization over the years compared to PowerPC used in Macs for obvious reasons.

EDIT: grammar.

 

[RogerWilco6502]

T4x Thinkpads come up every now and then but the p revisions are very sought after. Particularly the T42p, which I believe was the last fully IBM Thinkpad. The T43 had a bigger Lenovo input IIRR. I have been after a T42p for a while but sadly so are many others with deeper pockets.

Ok, thanks for the info. I might have to build one from acquired parts if possible in that case.

 

[Dronecatcher]

YouTube playback is a complex one for testing a computer's performance.

We've managed it fairly well for a while - even a low end G3 would suffice as getting past the standard Youtube interface was easy (and therefore stripping out all the javascript junk.)
Alas, recent changes have made it harder with the site no longer accessible via user agent spoofing and the devs at youtube-dl pretending Youtube no longer streams 3gp video.

 

[1042686]

And here I went from an AMD K6-2 straight to a Core 2 Quad. I still actually have both, but the motherboard for the Core 2 died from the capacitor plague. After that, it was a bunch of laptops, until my current Ryzen system.

And I can tell you, each desktop I've gone through has felt like a massive leap in power. But it means the only time I ever got to use a Pentium 4 was either on a public computer, or through a laptop, and it never gave me an idea how powerful they could be. Or couldn't be, considering.

All of my gaming rigs back in the day were AMD based (except my first laptop that I used for mobile gaming that was a p3 500Mhz rage pro - I think, that was a long time ago lol) as well up to my current i7 gaming rig. My next rig will most certainly be a Ryzen platform. I currently have a P2 500Mhz and P3 600mhz builds in my closet. I would like to get my hands on an AMD Athlon 1000mhz and build something up with that. That paired with 1.5Ghz PC133 ram and a agp Voodoo5500 (don't recall the motherboard unfortunately) was one of my favorite beige mid tower gaming rigs back then.

 

[1042686]

My Commodore VIC-20 still fires up and loads tapes and cartridges.

My C64 is still rocking too. To this day I love how it boots to command line in 1.2 seconds - never ever gets old. That and the soft blue hue of the CRT brings me back to being an 80s kid playing through Zork or Legacy of the Ancients.

 

[sparty411]

T4x Thinkpads come up every now and then but the p revisions are very sought after. Particularly the T42p, which I believe was the last fully IBM Thinkpad. The T43 had a bigger Lenovo input IIRR. I have been after a T42p for a while but sadly so are many others with deeper pockets.

I actually own a T42p in near mint condition. I'm scared to even use it, as it's such a beautiful machine.