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maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,489
43,412
Wow, I have to say, that I stumbled upon this and I'm saddened by this, but I can't say that its all that surprising. The market has evolved to such a degree that the M43 form factor is just too limiting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Panasonic is moving on in a different direction and if that is true that only leaves Oly as the sole company on the M43 platform. Tough to compete with full frame cameras especially when the slice of pie you're fighting for is shrinking.

I have a OMD EM5, I almost sold it last year, I wonder if I will be better served to look for some other platform, given the economic situation however any move will not happen for me, i.e., saving my pennies
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
671
I don't really agree with your post. The reason why is that you talk about having an "upgrade path" to "full frame" as if "full frame" is the holy grail of photography, and this idea that Olympus should have offered more beyond the 4/3 sensor specification.

µ4/3 has inherent advantages, but most people trying to review it made comparisons purely from the standpoint of full frame systems. For example, people would talk about how the ISO noise was superior on full frame cameras compared with µ4/3, which was true... while also overlooking the fact that if you wanted more depth of field, you'd need to close down the aperture with the "full frame" system, therefore making it a bit of a wash. I'll ignore the superiority of µ4/3 image stabilization to allow even lower shutter speeds than you could get by with larger sensors, but I probably shouldn't because that's another real variable that is also often overlooked. But then there was the other assumption being that everyone wanted a razor-thin plane of focus, so the benefits of having a deeper DoF were also regarded as a weakness. It was a marketing failure on Olympus' part, but it was also a loss against the culture of the photography fads of the time.

And why should "full frame" represent the pinnacle of photography? Why aren't people flocking to the "mini medium format" systems, like those offered by the Fujifilm GFX or Pentax lineups, which are close in price to some "full frame" offerings? Fads and culture, that's why. People belittled µ4/3 for having a "small, noisy" sensor, and then they'd turn around and argue that medium format sensors weren't significantly different in size from "full frame," and didn't offer significant enough difference. Having one's cake and eating it too, it seemed.

Moot point now, of course. All I'll say is that, having both medium format and µ4/3 made me realize the strengths of µ4/3 even more. It also made it painfully obvious that many review websites didn't use µ4/3 as their primary system, and again, they were treating it as if it were just some sort of handicapped "full frame" camera system.

As for how your proposed strategy of having µ4/3 and "full frame" mounts would have played out, let us watch how fortunes go for Panasonic. Their "full frame" system has numerous accolades for build quality and technical performance, yet it doesn't seem to be catching on as well as one would expect. I hope they'll do well - I'd probably favor them if I ever wanted a "full frame" system - but it makes me think that Olympus probably would have been in the same boat, if not worse off.

Then why Sony succeeded in selling full frame mirrorless cameras and why are they selling like hotcakes still? Why is it that the Sony A7 Mark II, a 6 years old camera, still sell like hotcakes as new in 2020, when sales of E-M1X or E-M1 Mark II didn't do so well if what you said is true; that is full frame is not the holy grail at the end? In my town, there were still A7 Mark II being sold out despite we are in a Pandemic and in a depression style economy. It wasn't Sony that went out of business and it wasn't Sony that lost money 8 out of 10 years either. It was Olympus.

I disagree that Panasonic isn't selling full frame well. If it allows Panasonic to keep the business running and to keep the lights on and to keep R&D going, then I would say mission accomplished. That is the point of any business; to keep the lights on and move on by innovating. Olympus, like their loyal fans, like to impart their Zen-wisdom of why people don't need full frame and this and that. But you know; at the end of the day, MONEY TALKS! Show me the money -- to coin the popular expression and Olympus just does the talk but has nothing to show for! How else is anyone going to take a zen-business philosophy seriously if it's loosing money?!?
 
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Alexander.Of.Oz

macrumors 68040
Oct 29, 2013
3,200
12,499
Sony made the right choice in 2013 to introduce the A7. That was the sweet spot; the right timing where everyone was still wanting DSLR to come back in sales.
Umm, Canon? 5D? 2005? ;)

All this Sony fullframe talk seems to be overlooking history...

Don't get me wrong, I love my Sony fullframe, I also love my Sony APS-C, I also love my M43 Olympus. Different horses for different courses. No one is the king of the mountain for me!
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
671
Umm, Canon? 5D? 2005? ;)

All this Sony fullframe talk seems to be overlooking history...

Don't get me wrong, I love my Sony fullframe, I also love my Sony APS-C, I also love my M43 Olympus. Different horses for different courses. No one is the king of the mountain for me!

5D is a full frame DSLR; whereas A7 is a full frame mirrorless. Two different animals. Sony went bold in 2013 and introduced what Canon and Nikon claimed was impossible and unneeded. Well as we found out; now everyone else is making mirrorless full frame. Sony wasn't wrong; they led the market and even up until now.
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
671
Wow, I have to say, that I stumbled upon this and I'm saddened by this, but I can't say that its all that surprising. The market has evolved to such a degree that the M43 form factor is just too limiting. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Panasonic is moving on in a different direction and if that is true that only leaves Oly as the sole company on the M43 platform. Tough to compete with full frame cameras especially when the slice of pie you're fighting for is shrinking.

I have a OMD EM5, I almost sold it last year, I wonder if I will be better served to look for some other platform, given the economic situation however any move will not happen for me, i.e., saving my pennies

The camera business, like all businesses, is a numbers game. It is about your customers and how many of them can you retain year over year without being eroded by your competition. Customers are the business' cash flow plain and simple. This ongoing cash flow allows businesses to pay rent on time, keep the lights on, pay business expenses and have enough left to fund R&D to continue innovating. By continually innovating, you get to keep your business. By not innovating, you risk loosing your business from a competitor who can steal away your customers.

Businesses who are stuck in their zen-wisdom philosophy and made it their modus operandi will eventually fail. That is because what worked decades ago, no longer worked today. You see big retailers like the Brooks Brothers, Neiman Marcus and JC Penny and even Nordstrom have failed or will be failing. COVID 19 simply accelerated the process in mere months rather than years of a decade. It was COVID 19 that accelerated Olympus demise. If Panasonic didn't innovate and introduce full frame and their Vlog cameras, Panasonic would too join Olympus. But they didn't, because they were willing to innovate. You see in business; you don't need to be number 1. You just need to make sure you're solvent and Olympus was never solvent. Their products couldn't help them be solvent. And in any business, that is already a fail. Not sure why people need to keep defending a company who keeps loosing money. The question to the loyal Olympus fans is -- why didn't you keep buying Olympus cameras to keep Olympus solvent? Well, there you go lies your loyalty. You perhaps do not have the loyalty to keep Olympus solvent, but have the loyalty to keep yourself secure with a camera brand as your personal identity.
 

Alexander.Of.Oz

macrumors 68040
Oct 29, 2013
3,200
12,499
5D is a full frame DSLR; whereas A7 is a full frame mirrorless. Two different animals. Sony went bold in 2013 and introduced what Canon and Nikon claimed was impossible and unneeded. Well as we found out; now everyone else is making mirrorless full frame. Sony wasn't wrong; they led the market and even up until now.
Apologies for not getting that, especially when the entire conversation is centred on Mirrorless cameras! ? ? ?
 

Clix Pix

macrumors Core
Lo these many, many moons ago I shot film cameras, mostly 35mm ("full-frame"), along with, in a couple of classes, medium format and large format. When the digital era was really getting into full gear, in 2005 I finally made the shift from my film cameras and a Coolpix to the Nikon D70, an APS-C sensor DSLR. For the next couple of years I shot with it and its successors and then decided I was finally ready to go "full-frame" with the D2x.......and that was instant love. As Molly mentions, there is just something about full-frame that works really well for those who particularly like to shoot portraits and macro and who often prefer shallow DOF.

When Sony brought out its NEX-7 APS-C mirrorless, I was intrigued by what I saw when looking through the electronic view finder and how I could make my settings adjustments and immediately see the results before ever pressing the shutter. I loved that camera and began paying more attention to what Sony was doing. Mirrorless was definitely up-and-coming, full-steam ahead. This past year when I was planning to buy a new camera, I knew two things: one, it would be mirrorless and two, it would be full-frame.
 
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MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
Lo these many, many moons ago I shot film cameras, mostly 35mm ("full-frame"), along with in a couple of classes, medium format and large format. When the digital era was really getting into full gear, in 2005 I finally made the shift from my film cameras and a Coolpix to the Nikon D70, an APS-C sensor DSLR. For the next couple of years I shot with it and its successors and then decided I was finally ready to go "full-frame" with the D2x.......and that was instant love. As Molly mentions, there is just something about full-frame that works really well for those who particularly like to shoot portraits and macro and who often prefer shallow DOF.

When Sony brought out its NEX-7 APS-C mirrorless, I was intrigued by what I saw when looking through the electronic view finder and how I could make my settings adjustments and immediately see the results before ever pressing the shutter. I loved that camera and began paying more attention to what Sony was doing. Mirrorless was definitely up-and-coming, full-steam ahead. This past year when I was planning to buy a new camera, I knew two things: one, it would be mirrorless and two, it would be full-frame.
Full Frame has a look that I was just not getting with smaller sensors. To me it was worth paying for it. I would always look at pictures and wonder why they looked so good, those images were all full frame.
 
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gkarris

macrumors G3
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
MacNut wrote:
"I wonder if m43 has a future, you only have 2 companies supporting it and one is about to sell off. Will Panasonic keep it alive or abandon it."

My guess (and it's ONLY "a guess"):
After Olympus is gone, Panasonic will drop m43 in favor of APS-c and full-frame.

Long-term, I see m43 as a "light that failed", soon to disappear from the market.
Again, my opinion only.

Panasonic won't do APS-C as they already have developed a FF mount...

& don't forget Nikon doing that too! I still am flabbergasted at the Canon camp never doing this properly, they have the most fractured lens assortment known to man!

They did with EF and EF-S. You wonder why they didn't do the same with mirrorless...
 

Darmok N Jalad

macrumors 603
Original poster
Sep 26, 2017
5,252
45,107
Tanagra (not really)
The following was shot with an E-M1 Mark III, and I believe all of the photographer’s Iceland shots were taken in handheld-high-res mode (HHHR) and really worth a look. ISO 200 @ 1/25s. He even had a wave knock his camera off into the salt water. He just rinsed it off with bottled water and kept going. Camera and lens weighs about 2.5lbs.

https://flic.kr/p/2iJzc8w
I think M43 gets a bad rap from the review sites, as it’s often reviewed in light of how FF is better. M43 is a very capable platform. It may not be for everyone, but it does some things really, really well, and you can squeeze a lot out of it.
 

gkarris

macrumors G3
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
The following was shot with an E-M1 Mark III, and I believe all of the photographer’s Iceland shots were taken in handheld-high-res mode (HHHR) and really worth a look. ISO 200 @ 1/25s. He even had a wave knock his camera off into the salt water. He just rinsed it off with bottled water and kept going. Camera and lens weighs about 2.5lbs.

https://flic.kr/p/2iJzc8w
I think M43 gets a bad rap from the review sites, as it’s often reviewed in light of how FF is better. M43 is a very capable platform. It may not be for everyone, but it does some things really, really well, and you can squeeze a lot out of it.

I had Olympus 4/3 back in the day and they were not very good at all.

Now I'm switching to mirrorless and tried several different ones (all older, used).

The newer Olympus OM-D E-M5's and newer are much better since they switched to the Sony 16Mp sensors... (the Panasonic Lumix 16Mp Sensors are good as well).
 

bousozoku

Moderator emeritus
Jun 25, 2002
15,728
1,901
Lard
I think people like full frame because (for those of us who are older at least), it makes it easy to translate focal lengths from film. I shoot full frame and don't want to go to a crop body because then my lenses are all different lengths.

Now, if you start with a different size sensor and stick with it I suppose you get used to whatever that translation is. Also, for a portrait photographer, full frame is "better" because it gives you a shallower DOF and more bokeh; it isn't cropped off. I started with a crop body and lusted after a full frame for a few years, and when I did move to a full frame camera, I instantly liked my photos better because they gave me a better background. I don't shoot many portraits these days but still prefer a shallow DOF for most of my work.

It's funny how with Four-Thirds (since 2004) and micro Four-Thirds (since 2012), I rarely end up with enough DoF. It's also funny how many times I see users of larger formats, such as APS-C, get a whole face or product in focus. I can understand that, if I was working in reconstructive surgery, but not in general photography.

I did a lot of telephoto work, so Four-Thirds appealed. The easy thing about the Four-Thirds multiplication factor is that it's essentially 2.0x, although it's supposedly 1.94x.
 

Alexander.Of.Oz

macrumors 68040
Oct 29, 2013
3,200
12,499
They did with EF and EF-S. You wonder why they didn't do the same with mirrorless...
Not the same way Sony & Nikon did from the outset though, where you can use the APS-C lenses on a fullframe body with a sacrifice of crop to the image of course. They were very late to the idea! Then they also created the M line and the recent R line of lenses, further fracturing the playing field. No wonder they have been limping along with over US$ 4 Billion losses for quite a few years now in the camera department of the company!
 

Alexander.Of.Oz

macrumors 68040
Oct 29, 2013
3,200
12,499
The following was shot with an E-M1 Mark III, and I believe all of the photographer’s Iceland shots were taken in handheld-high-res mode (HHHR) and really worth a look. ISO 200 @ 1/25s. He even had a wave knock his camera off into the salt water. He just rinsed it off with bottled water and kept going. Camera and lens weighs about 2.5lbs.

https://flic.kr/p/2iJzc8w
I think M43 gets a bad rap from the review sites, as it’s often reviewed in light of how FF is better. M43 is a very capable platform. It may not be for everyone, but it does some things really, really well, and you can squeeze a lot out of it.
I have to use the High-Res mode on a tripod with my E-M5 Mk II, but the ability to play with perspective correction in camera was something else I forgot about Olympus innovating with too! I have used that so many times in place of a tilt-shift lens!

In my mind I don't really care if people have expendable income and want to have the best of the best cameras and lenses at their disposal, good luck to them. It's their life, they are free to do what they want in all regards. Will full-frame make better imagery? No. Potentially it can, if used to its best, but very few full-frame users do that.

People do tend to bang on about shallow depth of field being better on fullframe as compared to M43 as a justification for going to a bigger sensor. In all seriousness though, how many portrait photographers are shooting portraits with a 1mm depth of field? Just cause their cameras can do it, do they actually use that lens at f/1.2 for portraiture with the image resolving distortions and diffractions caused at that aperture? Not that many at the top end of that photographic field really. That f/1.2 lens is used at f/2 to f/4 for best resolving quality on the high MP full-frame sensors used.

There has been the ability to use Voigtlander f/0.95's forever with M43 bodies, so really, that 'lack of shallow depth of field' is a bit of a red-herring statement. Yes, the physics can achieve a slightly shallower depth of field on full-frame, but is it noticeable when presented on the interwebz? Honestly? Not really.

For the frugal minded folks, the purchase of a few cheap glassless macro-rings later and you have no image loss with stupidly shallow depth of field! I have so many images that satiate my cravings for shallow depth of field captured on the various M43 cameras I worked through over the last year and a half, in surreal landscapes, portraits, macro, and architecture. All captured without the use of stupidly shallow lenses and only a few times did I use the macro-rings. I think the widest lens was an f/2. If you know how to create that look, it can be achieved on almost any camera, including mobile phones with their tiny sensor & without going into Portrait mode.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, for my documentary film-making headshots in interviews, I favour the Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera with its lowly and ages old M43 sensor. I wouldn't use it for any action captures, but for talking heads and landscapes/establishing shots, it's the go to workhorse for me. Take some frames of the ColorChecker Video Card and it's dead easy to colour match to my Sony cameras.

My takeaway from all this is that you should feel free to have whatever equipment you want or need without feeling a need to have to justify that. I had two participants in my Mindful Photography initiative that were able to buy the Nikon D750 & pro glass for it, but they still had issues with creating good quality imagery. That they had the expendable income to afford this is irrelevent, good luck to them! The potential is there for them both to eventually grow into using those mega-cameras and fingers crossed, they will one day.

Getting back on track, M43, like APS-C has evolved over the last few years to become a valid sensor format for many practicable purposes. That one partner of the format has been open (finally) about their financial woes and has taken steps to try and get some equilibrium again is good. I do wonder when we will see this from Canon and Nikon, as they have been riding multi-Billion US$ losses in the camera departments for many years too.
 

Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
2,034
924
Hawaii, USA
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Panasonic is moving on in a different direction and if that is true that only leaves Oly as the sole company on the M43 platform. Tough to compete with full frame cameras especially when the slice of pie you're fighting for is shrinking.
If you believe Panasonic's words, they intend to support both µ4/3 and their full-frame L-mount system. µ4/3 has some staying power for them, at least in the realm of video. But I don't think anyone would be surprised if they do end up dropping µ4/3 and sticking with the L-mount.

Then why Sony succeeded in selling full frame mirrorless cameras and why are they selling like hotcakes still? Why is it that the Sony A7 Mark II, a 6 years old camera, still sell like hotcakes as new in 2020, when sales of E-M1X or E-M1 Mark II didn't do so well if what you said is true; that is full frame is not the holy grail at the end?
You may be shocked to hear this, but Olympus regularly outsold Sony in Japan. The body style that earned those top spots were the E-P line, which more closely resembled point-and-shoot cameras than DSLR-styled bodies. That styling of body seems less popular around the rest of the world.[/quote]

Why is Sony so successful? Two reasons: they make the sensors that nearly everyone else uses; and they were first with a mirrorless full-frame system. That also means that they have some of the best implementation of technologies that mirrorless has to offer over DSLRs. Sony also seems to engage in a bit of an odd practice of continuing to sell older generations of their cameras at steeper discounts, whereas most other camera manufacturers sell off the stock and then phase them out entirely. You can make of that what you will: maybe Sony is trying to hook people into their system with more affordable bodies; or maybe they so badly overproduced bodies that they have that much stock left over to continue trying to sell. They have the production and sales numbers to know which it is; the rest of us are just speculating.

Full-frame is not the end-all, be-all of photography. It has the advantage of heritage, as most photography is built around 35mm film, which "full frame" is closest to in size. And then there's the power of marketing and culture. As I've written, people universally said that larger sensors offer better image performance... yet when affordable sensors larger than "full frame" came around, that argument suddenly went silent. Why should "full frame" be better than medium format? Why should it be better than µ4/3? It's not, really - but much of the photography world has chosen it as the standard for arbitrary reasons. And once that decision was made, alternatives had to work harder to justify their existence.
 

maflynn

macrumors Haswell
May 3, 2009
73,489
43,412
You may be shocked to hear this, but Olympus regularly outsold Sony in Japan
Didn't seem to help them did it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Full-frame is not the end-all, be-all of photography.
Perception is reality and on many points, full-frame is better. First off, during the early days of DSLRs, there were so much anticipation towards full-frame DSLRs, people want a 35mm sensor, and not a cropped one. M43 was doomed from the start because they were locked into a sensor that was surpassed, not just by full frame but other sensors.
 

gkarris

macrumors G3
Dec 31, 2004
8,301
1,061
"No escape from Reality...”
Didn't seem to help them did it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



Perception is reality and on many points, full-frame is better. First off, during the early days of DSLRs, there were so much anticipation towards full-frame DSLRs, people want a 35mm sensor, and not a cropped one. M43 was doomed from the start because they were locked into a sensor that was surpassed, not just by full frame but other sensors.

You would've thought that Olympus would've looked into the price drop and improvements of FF Cameras over the years and plan accordingly. Digital Cameras are just like any other electronic gadget - they improve and the price drops over the years.
 

MacNut

macrumors Core
Jan 4, 2002
22,995
9,973
CT
You would've thought that Olympus would've looked into the price drop and improvements of FF Cameras over the years and plan accordingly. Digital Cameras are just like any other electronic gadget - they improve and the price drops over the years.
Olympus was in trouble when they had the money scandal. I don't think they had the money to start over.
 
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Ledgem

macrumors 68020
Jan 18, 2008
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Hawaii, USA
Didn't seem to help them did it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
It didn't, because Japan is not the world market and the E-P line of cameras were geared more toward your average consumer, rather than enthusiast "prosumers." I'd guess there was less markup on those, and that those buyers might only buy one additional lens.

But the point is that not everyone wanted "full frame." People talk about the superiority of it, but it's not as obvious as people make it out to be. And I say that again as someone using both µ4/3 and medium format - when I do a double-blinded test for myself, I have a very hard time telling which camera took which image, even with pixel-peeping. Most of it was in the marketing and market trends.
 

Thoradin

macrumors 6502a
May 18, 2020
778
1,119
Yorkshire, England
I really hope whoever carries on with the Olympus brand also continues with the M43 format sensor.
I haven’t used anything digital that’s not Olympus branded, my current models of choice are an E-500 and an E-P3.
Most of my work is music venues, the stage shots are all using the E-P3 with a 17mm f2.8 and the looks I get from the other guys with their full frame and massive lenses. They must think I’m some form of madman, yet every one of them has been surprised that the little Olympus in my hand is behind every single one of my published pictures.
The E-500 has its kit lens and a top mounted flash gun for taking quick crowd photos in the dimly lit venue corners, it’s nothing fancy and has been dropped and kicked a few times, yet still soldiers on.
I absolutely love the small size and tiny weight of a four thirds system and will not be changing any time soon for my needs.
 

iluvmacs99

macrumors 6502a
Apr 9, 2019
920
671
Eventually when full frame becomes a lot more affordable in a few years time, we will all forget about those other cropped formats like we did with the film era.
 
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Alexander.Of.Oz

macrumors 68040
Oct 29, 2013
3,200
12,499
Eventually when full frame becomes a lot more affordable in a few years time, we will all forget about those other cropped formats like we did with the film era.
I'm not holding my breath for cheaper full-frame sensors! The technology keeps on advancing and as a result the prices are not dropping. It appears to only drop in price on older or crippled technology inserted in newer models! ?
 
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