oMP vs nMP

[Gav Mack]

Why buy an i5? it's just a slower i7!

Price/performance. You get a mild speed bump in compute power on a 4 core nMP vs 6 core oMP which costs literally twice as much. Do you get what I'm saying? Twice as much is a boatload of money. As far as upgrades, I'd hardly call throwing in a few cards and some RAM "tinkering."

CPU upgrades are a pain, I'll agree with you there. None of the rest is really "tinkering." It literally takes 5 minutes to upgrade the Old Mac Pro.

Really, if you're not using a ton of OpenCL (or firePro specific apps in Windows), the nMP's price/performance is abysmal compared to what's out there. Apple tricks people like you into thinking things are a universally good deal because some people are willing to pay for them. Guess what? this guy doesn't want to pay $2000-3000 extra for a machine to run FCPX 40% faster--which he barely uses. That's like saying somebody needs a $100,000 dump truck to commute to work.

That's not to mention the real price of the nMP. After all, how much do TB HD controllers run in comparison to throwing another drive in the drive bay? I love how people are obsessed with resale value too, because that's such a lame counterargument for the fact that you literally have to sell the thing in order to upgrade the GPU (and CPU, if you want the next socket)

Also, the video cards are already 2 years old with no promise (and little likelihood) of upgradability. You're buying old technology! Call the President!

Thing is that most of my 4/5,1 users don't care about old GPU's, tock generation Xeon, they just want a new Mac Pro. Companies in media, broadcast and design. The finance has been paid off, tax deducted, most have had my hands inside their cheesegraters with CPU GPU SSD upgrades but they still want a new one. I've seen a hex core nMP sitting next to dual hex cMP with all my upgrades only last week and as far as single core, booting OSX and apps and all round snappiness the nMP is on a different level altogether and so is the lack of noise even with the nMP + Drobo 5D combo.

I'm actually quite happy they want the can cos I'm rubbing my hands at the prospect of getting their cast-offs on the cheap and one under my desk will certainly do for my upgrade. They will be writing all their new cans and TB spaghetti off against tax and will not care thankfully. Though after their upgrade experiences with the towers they may let me drop in upgraded Xeons in the future, perhaps more even daring to do so before AppleCare runs out!

 

[slughead]

Thing is that most of my 4/5,1 users don't care about old GPU's, tock generation Xeon, they just want a new Mac Pro. Companies in media, broadcast and design. The finance has been paid off, tax deducted, most have had my hands inside their cheesegraters with CPU GPU SSD upgrades but they still want a new one. I've seen a hex core nMP sitting next to dual hex cMP with all my upgrades only last week and as far as single core, booting OSX and apps and all round snappiness the nMP is on a different level altogether and so is the lack of noise even with the nMP + Drobo 5D combo.

I think this sentiment is more widespread than media companies. Though you know what happens to companies who burn money on extraneous stuff they don't need... There are a lot of prosumers and even just productivity folks buying these things up for the reasons you listed: Quiet, Small, Snappy. Quite a premium to pay but if you have the money, who cares?

I think a lot of users here don't really understand, however, how much money $4,000 really is in the PC arena.

As far as snappiness, I agree the old one can be a turkey with its platter drives and SATA II, however, not surprisingly, I notice no difference between my RAID-0 2xSSD SATAIII -equipped hexcore and the nMP I tooled around with in the Apple store. I can open 5 programs at once and they pop up instantly. That's not to mention that I can add a few more SSD and don't have to buy a drobo to do it.

I'm actually quite happy they want the can cos I'm rubbing my hands at the prospect of getting their cast-offs on the cheap and one under my desk will certainly do for my upgrade. They will be writing all their new cans and TB spaghetti off against tax and will not care thankfully. Though after their upgrade experiences with the towers they may let me drop in upgraded Xeons in the future, perhaps more even daring to do so before AppleCare runs out!

You're not alone, the price of these machines on E-bay actually jumped in the past 2 months. Looks like not everyone thinks the new Mac Pro is "without compromise."

 

[Gav Mack]

I think this sentiment is more widespread than media companies. Though you know what happens to companies who burn money on extraneous stuff they don't need... There are a lot of prosumers and even just productivity folks buying these things up for the reasons you listed: Quiet, Small, Snappy. Quite a premium to pay but if you have the money, who cares?

I think a lot of users here don't really understand, however, how much money $4,000 really is in the PC arena.

As far as snappiness, I agree the old one can be a turkey with its platter drives and SATA II, however, not surprisingly, I notice no difference between my RAID-0 2xSSD SATAIII -equipped hexcore and the nMP I tooled around with in the Apple store. I can open 5 programs at once and they pop up instantly. That's not to mention that I can add a few more SSD and don't have to buy a drobo to do it.



You're not alone, the price of these machines on E-bay actually jumped in the past 2 months. Looks like not everyone thinks the new Mac Pro is "without compromise."

I agree, barring a lottery win I certainly wouldn't want to blow that much money but equally I can understand why they are doing it. As far as the single core issue the Westmere's can't hold a candle to anything Sandy Bridge onwards, which gave the biggest CPU boost for years and every new CPU generation since such as in the iMac and MBP has been incremental and not a real eye opener. The twin hex cMP had 840 Pro/X2 48Gb and not a raid but I could see the can was noticeably faster in all round, as it bloody well should after neglecting the architecture for four years.

The single core performance and the lack of noise when pushed hard for me are the biggest plus points, but like yourself it's certainly not the Mac Pro for me one bit - I need sleds!

Mac users have no idea about PC people and vice versa, they always derided one another for years and still pretty much do. I was always the odd one out who liked both and have carved a nice niche out of being one of these extremely rare IT pro's in the industry that happily sit in both (boot)camps.

On a tangent but value for money related - grabbed the 17 inch late MBP 2011 that I've been scanning ebay for months and was an absolute steal. I certainly wait for the right moment upgrading any of my Apple kit

 

[wildmac]

I think a lot of users here don't really understand, however, how much money $4,000 really is in the PC arena."

Yes, yes.. I should have saved $1k to buy the PC instead, in order to spend another $750 on software and get a new OS to fight with... worth every penny.

 

[slughead]

Yes, yes.. I should have saved $1k to buy the PC instead, in order to spend another $750 on software and get a new OS to fight with... worth every penny.

If it's right for you, yes. If you need what the nMP is good at, have the money, and don't mind the downsides, get that instead.

I'm not saying that a PC or old mac pro is right for everyone, just that it's possible some users here don't see how much they actually cost and understand the specific use-cases where the price/performance starts to give out.

The old Mac Pro, for mid-range computing without OpenCL, is going to be a much better deal. For this guy who barely uses FCP (sounds like a hobby for him anyway) and is doing mainly programming, he really would be an idiot to pay $4,000 minimum on the tube which is loaded with expensive stuff he doesn't need. Your comment about "but it's 5 years old!!" is very telling as to your susceptibility to marketing.

 

[VirtualRain]

Your comment about "but it's 5 years old!!" is very telling as to your susceptibility to marketing.

Sheesh... that's a plain unfair statement to make about anyone here. However, I admit, I'm the pot calling the kettle black here. I've made the same remarks earlier in this thread about buying a 5-year-old computer and that was unfair as well.

I believe the reason many of us are here is because we're computer enthusiasts (whether we really need these machines or not)... and for some (like me and maybe wildmac), that means playing with and working on the latest technology... I guess for others, that can mean buying a 5 year old computer to upgrade and tinker with. Both can be the passion of different kinds of enthusiasts. But we're certainly not buying nMP's because we're susceptible to marketing... at least regulars here on this forum couldn't possibly... we've all bought this machine with eyes wide open to it's compromises.

 

[antonis]

Although I'd be very skeptical of buying a machine that is EOL anyway (that's my opinion though), there's another parameter between oMP vs nMP. Geographical location plays big part for a potential buyer of either machine. oMP is banned from Europe for over 1 year now IIRC, and there are not so many options (especially in european countries where Apple has no presence itself and Macs can be bought only through lousy resellers) to get one, or to be able to easily find parts to upgrade it.

That's a big factor in some places that cannot be ignored. The momentum of a new supported machine is much greater than an older "abandoned" one. For the current owners of oMP things are slightly different, I can get that.

 

[slughead]

But we're certainly not buying nMP's because we're susceptible to marketing... at least regulars here on this forum couldn't possibly... we've all bought this machine with eyes wide open to it's compromises.

You're right, it was an unfair statement the way I phrased it. I was really meaning to address his actual statement which was saying basically that it suits nobody's interests to buy a 5 year old machine.

Just because a piece of technology is a little older doesn't mean it isn't a good fit for someone. Sometimes older technology has benefits in price/performance that newer technology doesn't.

Just look at the D700--2 year old GPUs, rock solid, excellent binning, and probably would have excellent price/performance if Apple weren't jacking up the price to get a huge profit margin

 

[thats all folks]

Currently the value proposition is firmly with buying pieces and modding a base 2009 Mac Pro up to a 3.33 hex, if you are willing to put in the tiny bit of time and effort needed. I've made probably 12 of them so far. Plus a bunch of beefy 4 cores as well.

The cost of the new MP is outsized in consideration of the performance gains it represents. That cost, delay and weak performance are mostly on Intel. It is their underperforming, overpriced chips in the machine.

If you are not put out or left out buy all the things the new MP is or isn't, you are still certainly better served by waiting for the next gen. Intel Xeons will have a new socket next year. Everyone seems to agree the "Fire" cards are old tech now, should see something new next year. The tiny SSD and RAM options will hopefully be addressed in a future revision as well.

 

[VirtualRain]

Currently the value proposition is firmly with buying pieces and modding a base 2009 Mac Pro up to a 3.33 hex, if you are willing to put in the tiny bit of time and effort needed. I've made probably 12 of them so far. Plus a bunch of beefy 4 cores as well.

The cost of the new MP is outsized in consideration of the performance gains it represents. That cost, delay and weak performance are mostly on Intel. It is their underperforming, overpriced chips in the machine.

If you are not put out or left out buy all the things the new MP is or isn't, you are still certainly better served by waiting for the next gen. Intel Xeons will have a new socket next year. Everyone seems to agree the "Fire" cards are old tech now, should see something new next year. The tiny SSD and RAM options will hopefully be addressed in a future revision as well.

I don't agree. I came from a 2009 Quad, and yeah, I could have spent more time, effort, and money (than I already had) doing further upgrades to eek some more life out of it... Although at 5 years, that's still 3-years longer life than any PC I ever built. But how much would those upgrades cost, how many compromises or headaches would accompany it? And how much performance would that net me? I decided now was the best time to make the jump to a new platform and the gains have been outstanding in nearly every respect...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1692536/

In my case, the oMP was the perfect bridge machine for me, coming from DIY PC building to the Mac world. It offered some of the same flexibility and satisfaction that comes with DIY upgrading along with the compatibility, kludges, and headaches that go with it (and there are probably more of those on the Mac side than on the PC side). Now, I'm done with tinkering and the nMP is a breath of fresh air... Extremely powerful, unbelievably quiet, and nicely integrated (free of incompatibility and rock solid reliable)... It is the pinnacle of everything I strived for in building my own computer... I love it.

 

[thats all folks]

Quadro

I don't agree. I came from a 2009 Quad, and yeah, I could have spent more time, effort, and money (than I already had) doing further upgrades to eek some more life out of it... Although at 5 years, that's still 3-years longer life than any PC I ever built. But how much would those upgrades cost, how many compromises or headaches would accompany it? And how much performance would that net me? I decided now was the best time to make the jump to a new platform and the gains have been outstanding in nearly every respect...

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1692536/

And I don't agree with your comparison.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=18890322#post18890322

You do make clear that USB3 is faster than USB2. Point taken. What Apple really should have done, years ago, was implement FireWire 1600 (that and 3200 fully defined in 2008). With that we all would have been in a much better place than waiting years for a $5000 workstation to match connector speeds with a $1000 ultra portable.

Your test platforms are so mismatched, 12 vs, 32 GB RAM, the GT 120 vs. anything other than the GT 120. That alone could account for much of what you see in Aperture.

A CPU upgrade to a W3680 ($450 - 650) would give you six faster cores, more cache, faster memory controller, faster busses... 24GB of 1333Mhz RAM, $300 (though I went for 48). The Apple ATI 5870, yes totally overpriced but that or a Quadro 4000 (deals to be had on Ebay, so $300 - 700) would have been a huge boost. That 120 is a dog, a 3 legged dog (and one of those legs is shorter than the others). You commented somewhere that you didn't like the single displayport on the Nvidias. Still 8 bit on a OS X so the same image as from DVI.

So $1500 and a little bit of time (it's clear that neither cost nor tinkering dissuade you), that you could have done years ago, would have given you a much more capable machine.

 

[VirtualRain]

And I don't agree with your comparison.
https://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?p=18890322#post18890322

You do make clear that USB3 is faster than USB2. Point taken. What Apple really should have done, years ago, was implement FireWire 1600 (that and 3200 fully defined in 2008). With that we all would have been in a much better place than waiting years for a $5000 workstation to match connector speeds with a $1000 ultra portable.

Your test platforms are so mismatched, 12 vs, 32 GB RAM, the GT 120 vs. anything other than the GT 120. That alone could account for much of what you see in Aperture.

A CPU upgrade to a W3680 ($450 - 650) would give you six faster cores, more cache, faster memory controller, faster busses... 24GB of 1333Mhz RAM, $300 (though I went for 48). The Apple ATI 5870, yes totally overpriced but that or a Quadro 4000 (deals to be had on Ebay, so $300 - 700) would have been a huge boost. That 120 is a dog, a 3 legged dog (and one of those legs is shorter than the others). You commented somewhere that you didn't like the single displayport on the Nvidias. Still 8 bit on a OS X so the same image as from DVI.

So $1500 and a little bit of time (it's clear that neither cost nor tinkering dissuade you), that you could have done years ago, would have given you a much more capable machine.

Yeah, I could have spent $1500 on my 2009, but I'd really only be halfway to where my nMP is at. Everything would still be at least a generation behind the nMP and I'd still be dealing with bluetooth performance issues, USB 3 issues, and a Hightpoint RAID card that didn't want to work happily under 10.9.

Instead, I sold the 2009 for $1000 (and parted out the storage for another $800) and bought a whole new system. I don't think it's unreasonable to buy a new computer every 5 years. I use to do it every other year. Thanks to OS X, I get a lot more life out of a computer than I ever did before, but it still warrants replacement once in a while (and the resale value on my Mac Pro blows me away... any PC I ever built was basically only good for scrap once it was 2 years old).

 

[wildmac]

"but it's 5 years old!!" is very telling as to your susceptibility to marketing.

Huh? 5 years old is all about outdated memory busses, no warranty, iffy support for new video cards going forward, and more.

How long will that 5-year-old hardware be supported by the current version of the OS? How long will the software packages support it?

There are a lot of "ifs" with hardware that old. If money or the "limitations" of the nMP are the issue, building a PC with current parts is a better choice.