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Only 7 years of support from release date is unacceptable for a $2000+ personal computer.

I haven't read all in this thread, only scrolled though it, so I don't know if someone mentioned this.
But what will Apple do now when there's Apple Care+ subscription, and if the owner woul'd continuing to pay for it longer then the device is suported?
Or will Apple cancel the AC+ at that time?

Myself I've usually ditch the AC+ after awhile if I bought it at purchace.
Usually you coul'd only buy for 3 yrs earlier. Now as it can be bought as subscription it's different. Though it's not worth it in long run in my oppinion. But my MacStudio gave me a pop-up that asked if I wanted to extend the AC+ recently.

But no, the price is not worth it if the Mac is relatively or totally stationary, in my oppinion.
But it sure feels good to have it when bought things at times at Apple, and you do get at least slightly better service from Apple.

Personally, I don't keep my Mac's that long, but just wondered what Apple will do in such situation 😂
 
If you dont like the china controlled computer builder then dont buy one and there wont be any 7 year weight!
um wait@lol
 
seek3r said:
Where does Apple say that, at least as far as Macs go? There is not a single Mac that is locked down like that…
Click to expand...
The way I see it, you should be able to walk into a store/order online for delivery, a Mac laptop, it is shipped with the OS you request, either Win11 if that is your choice or an Apple OS..It should not come pre-installed.. You should have the right to install what you want, Apple should not have the option to force an OS..

Yes I know it is possible to install other OS other than Mac OS, but for the average user, this is a bridge too far, and that is maybe unfair by Apple..
 
JustinePaula said:
The way I see it, you should be able to walk into a store/order online for delivery, a Mac laptop, it is shipped with the OS you request, either Win11 if that is your choice or an Apple OS..
Click to expand...
Microsoft has an exclusivity deal with Qualcomm for Windows on ARM that theoretically expires this year… That’s Apple’s problem?
JustinePaula said:
It should not come pre-installed..
Click to expand...
which will freak the majority of buyers out
JustinePaula said:
You should have the right to install what you want, Apple should not have the option to force an OS..
Click to expand...
It comes with their OS. The bootloader isnt locked, they arent stopping other folks from making their own OS work… (see: Asahi)
JustinePaula said:
Yes I know it is possible to install other OS other than Mac OS, but for the average user, this is a bridge too far, and that is maybe unfair by Apple..
Click to expand...
That’s kinda a bridge too far for most computer users on most computers
 
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seek3r said:
It comes with their OS. The bootloader isnt locked, they arent stopping other folks from making their own OS work… (see: Asahi)
Click to expand...

The work of Asahi is amazing and also interesting as it illuminates the underlying hardware. What's shared with the iPhone, engineering tradeoffs Apple made, etc.

Then as the result of the work of the Asahi team, we can see what Apple has actually done and why:
asahilinux.org

Introduction to Apple Silicon - Asahi Linux Documentation

None
asahilinux.org asahilinux.org

In some ways it looks better than T2-based Macs. If only Apple documented things a bit more so the team didn't have to reverse engineer as much...

Who knows maybe I'll switch to an AS Mac running Asahi and Darling in a few years...
 
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bzgnyc2 said:
The work of Asahi is amazing and also interesting as it illuminates the underlying hardware. What's shared with the iPhone, engineering tradeoffs Apple made, etc.

Then as the result of the work of the Asahi team, we can see what Apple has actually done and why:
asahilinux.org

Introduction to Apple Silicon - Asahi Linux Documentation

None
asahilinux.org asahilinux.org

In some ways it looks better than T2-based Macs. If only Apple documented things a bit more so the team didn't have to reverse engineer as much...

Who knows maybe I'll switch to an AS Mac running Asahi and Darling in a few years...
Click to expand...
It's absolutely better than the T2 Macs, thunderbolt so far aside.
 
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Annv said:
I believe all that could break has already broken, like a PSU that I replaced a while back. Samsung SSDs are reliable, so I feel safe about my data. Still, keeping most thing in OneDrive, and my software has a full backup feature.

Literally anything except the motherboard is replaceable, and even if it breaks, I will be able to boot my SSD with a new computer and all the software.

We did so when my son's ASUS ROG broke (motherboard failure), and he didn't even need to reinstall Windows, just run the installer for some programs on his new desktop.

From this experience (and yet another laptop that literally fell apart after 7 years), I've concluded that laptops are not worth it. If they break, proprietary parts are too expensive to fix — repair would cost me 2/3 of the laptop price. So, I've decided to never buy them again, switching to custom-made desktops where all is replaceable and upgradeable.
Click to expand...

That's more the "ship of Theseus" applied to PCs which is fine :)

Just a warning. OneDrive is NOT a backup. It's a convenient sync tool but definitely not a backup solution. Neither is iCloud. Consider the day your machine gets owned and you lose your microsoft account creds at the same time as the machine. You have no backup then. I got thoroughly screwed a couple of years back with an unresolvable billing problem from Microsoft as well. Lost my O365 account over it as did my three kids and partner.

Backups here are two complete offline copies, one kept off site and a NAS.

Agree with desktops. Far superior.
 
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JustinePaula said:
If you know anything about Win11 you would know it is NT, and that my friend goes back to the middle 1990's.. 99% of the crud that ruins Win11 is 40 yr old code.. Win11 is 96% bloatware, of which 99% of devices don't need that code, it is a scam to sell more devices.. M/soft could strip Win11 to 5% of what it is now, and every device from 1995 to 2025 would run 100%.. No question what M/soft is doing should be the subject of a world class action suit.
Click to expand...

NT ceased to exist when Microsoft unified the codebase back with Windows Vista. Technically there are still underpinnings and conventions in Windows that date back to the 1980s with things like drive letters and some DOS commands having direct equivalents in the command line app. But most of the code is NOT the original code, as that code would not be able to run on modern 64-bit systems.
 
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JustinePaula said:
The way I see it, you should be able to walk into a store/order online for delivery, a Mac laptop, it is shipped with the OS you request, either Win11 if that is your choice or an Apple OS..It should not come pre-installed.. You should have the right to install what you want, Apple should not have the option to force an OS..

Yes I know it is possible to install other OS other than Mac OS, but for the average user, this is a bridge too far, and that is maybe unfair by Apple..
Click to expand...

You really have no idea what you're advocating for, do you? Microsoft is a software company that makes an OS which is designed to run on a wide range of hardware, the vast majority of which is NOT from Microsoft. Apple makes its own hardware and software, which are designed to work together. Since you can already install alternate OSes on both Windows and Macs out of the box, you're just complaining for the sake of complaint, because you are not advocating for any real change other then increased frustration from customers upon initial purchase.
 
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cjsuk said:
Fundamentally, the stats drive the warranty offers so you can infer the lifespan from that. If PCs all lasted 10 years they'd be giving you 5 year warranties out of the box. If your PC has a 1 year warranty then it's probably made of Shenzhen landfill sweepings.
Click to expand...
This statement is funny, because one year is in fact the standard Apple guarantee 🤔.

I still can't believe, that the failure rates you mention are realistic. There could be specific reasons why in a corporate setting PCs would be replaced at the rates you claim. First and foremost, no big organisation will bother with making small repairs or replace parts that are broken. I'm thinking about RAM, SSDs, fans, batteries and such. There is also a huge financial incentive to get rid of devices after they are written off. Those two factors alone would explain why companies will not keep their PCs for longer than 5 years.
 
MilaM said:
This statement is funny, because one year is in fact the standard Apple guarantee 🤔.

I still can't believe, that the failure rates you mention are realistic. There could be specific reasons why in a corporate setting PCs would be replaced at the rates you claim. First and foremost, no big organisation will bother with making small repairs or replace parts that are broken. I'm thinking about RAM, SSDs, fans, batteries and such. There is also a huge financial incentive to get rid of devices after they were written off. Those two factors alone would explain why companies will not keep their PCs for longer than 5 years.
Click to expand...

What can I say? You don't have to believe me but individual anecdotes don't beat engineering and field experience.

Wait and see what happens with software and hardware amortisation over the next few years. That'll no doubt not change the statistics despite the legislation changing.
 
cjsuk said:
What can I say? You don't have to believe me but individual anecdotes don't beat engineering and field experience.

Wait and see what happens with software and hardware amortisation over the next few years. That'll no doubt not change the statistics despite the legislation changing.
Click to expand...
What engineering and field experience are you drawing on? Mine tells me that a 1yr warranty doesn't imply something's made of junk-bin components. Here's a wikipedia article that explains the basic principle.

en.wikipedia.org

Bathtub curve - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

If you use terrible components, hoping to get away with a short warranty, the early failure rate of those components (aka "infant mortality") will be very very high. The time scale for infant mortality is weeks to months, so even with a 1 year warranty you'll be shooting yourself in the foot - you will have to process a lot more warranty claims than you otherwise would. Everything you do to reduce infant mortality tends to improve failure rates beyond 1 year too.
 
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mr_roboto said:
What engineering and field experience are you drawing on? Mine tells me that a 1yr warranty doesn't imply something's made of junk-bin components. Here's a wikipedia article that explains the basic principle.

en.wikipedia.org

Bathtub curve - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

If you use terrible components, hoping to get away with a short warranty, the early failure rate of those components (aka "infant mortality") will be very very high. The time scale for infant mortality is weeks to months, so even with a 1 year warranty you'll be shooting yourself in the foot - you will have to process a lot more warranty claims than you otherwise would. Everything you do to reduce infant mortality tends to improve failure rates beyond 1 year too.
Click to expand...

Electrical engineering in defence and commercial capacity. I designed stuff that has to stay working for 25 years because you can't get to it to fix it.

A 1 year warranty only implies that you have ****** consumer regulations. Look at the extended warranty situation which is more normalised across the planet.

The bathtub curve generally includes statistical failure reduction from working out manufacturing issues that make it into production and solving them early in the product lifecycle. Not necessarily a valid model here as these are constant product iterations rather than a completely new products. Early failures are increasingly rare.

My point is that the products are designed with parts and manufacturing techniques that have a statistically high survival rate past a marketable extended warranty. After that you're on luck and it usually runs out pretty quickly. But you only hear about the survivors.

I have a 1969 Tektronix 453 oscilloscope here that still works. For every one that works today there are 100 that died decades ago.
 
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Pretty disappointed to see the 2019 15" gone from support. i9 with similar or better graphics than the other supported Intels. Odd.
 
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staypuftforums said:
What does this mean? What does personal computer have to do with anything?

What’s the argument *against* Apple extending security updates by a few years? Nobody is even bothering to offer one. They just say “it’s ridiculous”. Why?
Click to expand...
And that is wherein the problem lies. Apples hardware is so exceptional to a degree that they have to have some way of getting you to upgrade. Especially since most people don't want nor need the extra bells and whistles in the newer versions of the OS. OCLP has proven that there are really quite a few models of apple devices that can run the newest software exceptionally. Just think if apple were still supporting all of its 2011 notebooks. The Sales would be disastrously low.
 
cjsuk said:
A 1 year warranty only implies that you have ****** consumer regulations. Look at the extended warranty situation which is more normalised across the planet.
Click to expand...

No. This isn't right. A warranty is a service agreement, which is usually B2B and often bespoke. Consumer warranties from the manufacturer are entirely discretionary but whenever given tend to be only for the first year of ownership and no longer. Anything more than that will be in the form of extended warranties as you mentioned but those are not free. Warranties can also cover areas over and above QC issues - such as consumables, accidental damage and service while abroad through partners.

Consumers rely on statutory guarantees, which means any company thinking it can get away with shoddy workmanship will soon find themselves in the red. Consumers will also tend to avail themselves of the statutory guarantee rather than the warranty because the contractual relationship is with the seller, not the manufacturer, who could be on the other side of the world.
 
Heinzja said:
(uK) What is a sensible depreciation rate for laptops and computers? A good (and oft-used) rate is 25%. This could be on a 'straight-line' basis, which writes the asset off at 25% of its cost each year, so that the asset is fully written off after four years.... Businesses do not care if Apple doesn’t “Support” their Stuff after 4-5-6 years...
Click to expand...

3 years is sensible as that's the length of extended warranty cover for most computers.

Hence, companies who aren't silly budget on replacement costs amortised over 3 years. If they go further than that, bonus. If not, warranty. If they die on month 37: new machine.
 
nathansz said:
Are they working on m3 yet or still finishing m2?
Click to expand...

They are still finishing M2 and then critically for sustainability upstreaming their work back into the mainline Linux code. Unfortunately I gather upstreaming in Linux land is not easy. In any case I understand the plan is to shift back to M3/M4 after that.

Note, the founder and a few others left but many remain:
asahilinux.org

About - Asahi Linux

asahilinux.org asahilinux.org

asahilinux.org

Progress Report: Linux 6.15 - Asahi Linux

asahilinux.org asahilinux.org
 
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