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Y'all are crazy if you think Windows Vista is a failure because people are scared of it. They were scared to death of XP too and stayed with Windows 98 and 2000 for YEARS despite how vastly superiour to 98 and clearly improved from 2000 Vista was.

EVERY Windows release gets the same thing - even Windows 95 way back. How short your memories are. Microsoft cannot release an OS people want to upgrade to. It never has.

In 2009 or 2010, Windows Vista should be much better accepted - the tipping point will be when Windows 7 is released and people want downgrades to Vista...

That's the Microsoft product cycle and always has been. Kinda a sad reflection on their inability to deliver a compelling feature set, eh?

I thinks its because upgrading Windows has as much impact on your comfort bubble as a complete OS switch. Software you are used to doesn't work any more, you have to get new peripherals ... might as well just switch to OS X or Ubuntu.

No you are wrong, people where not asking for downgrades to 2000 when xp were released, but they asking now because vista is such an overbloated mega flop, and their asking en masse. Maybe they were not so quick to adopt xp, but then again it didn't come for free right did it, so it's not much saying that they didn't adopt fast enough a product that came at an extra cost and with little real improvements. And rest assured they will correct their atrocities with 7 and now one will ever look back on this vista thing, because ms migh be a bunch of incapable types but the're is a whole lot of them, and even they at some point GET IT, some of it at least....:cool::apple:

People WERE very reluctant to upgrade to XP because of instability and driver conflicts, etc. The same stuff you are hearing about Vista today. Even thought at the heart XP is much better than Windows 98. I'm sure eventually Vista's kinks will be worked out to the point that people prefer it to XP.

Contrast this with Leopard - it was not a free upgrade either and there was a huge rush to get it. I installed it within the first couple weeks it was out and have never looked back to Tiger - its like Tiger is Leopard Lite.
 
Total cost of ownership is definitely one thing companies always look at, while consumers won't. That's why the "half the price" iPhone numbers skyrocketed. It was actually just "half the initial price", but consumers don't always think that way.

You can buy a $600 Dell. You own it for 2 years, paying for antivirus/spyware solutions and tech support the whole time. You buy a Mac
for $1200, own it for 4 years, with no antivirus and little tech support needed. Right there your cost per year is already better with a Mac.

Want a backup solution for all the computers in your small business? Configure all the Macs in the office to back up their home folders with Time Machine to central storage. SO easy to set up, the boss could do it. With Windows ... call in a tech firm.



Yes, but we're talking about the future here, not the present. I believe that Apple will have less than 50% market share and Windows will have greater than 50% for a long time, but those numbers are steadily going in Apple's favor.

Walk into any coffee shop in my small Idaho college town and you see a sea of glowing Apple logos, iPhones, and white earbuds. Its amazing how Apple's products still stand out even when they are everywhere. College campuses are teeming with Macs, and when they go off to start businesses or work in their fields, Macs are what they are going to prefer.

Those are all well thought out, rational arguments.

I unfortunately use 64-bit applications across the board on my PC. I had wanted to use my Apple G5 for that, but that didn't quite happen before it became a $2300 paperweight.

I use my new MacBook Pro for flash work and some realtime 3d work in Unity. For anything else, it's PC for stability, exclusive apps, memory access, and extensibility of plugins and features.
 
Those are all well thought out, rational arguments.

I unfortunately use 64-bit applications across the board on my PC. I had wanted to use my Apple G5 for that, but that didn't quite happen before it became a $2300 paperweight.

I use my new MacBook Pro for flash work and some realtime 3d work in Unity. For anything else, it's PC for stability, exclusive apps, memory access, and extensibility of plugins and features.

I have a G5 running my time machine backups, hosting my iTunes, (and curing cancer). Got it for free from someone who was using it as a paperweight. :)

What did you buy the G5 for at the time? It's potential? No, you bought it for what it could do then. It can still do all that now.

Mac for Flash? Oh the humanity! The thing I love the most creating the thing I hate the most. :eek: ;)

PC for stability and memory access? Huh?

PC for exclusive apps and extensibility? These are symptoms of market share, and will hopefully change in the future - hoping that there is a "halo effect" from iPhone programmers.
 
Yes, Leopard already is a nice platform for home users, and Snow Leopard will probably be a bit faster and maybe even a bit nicer. But still, it's a home user platform and it won't grow out of that market niche.

Unless, maybe, the most unlikely event of all will happen: That Apple will open their software platform to non-Apple hardware.

As long as that does not happen, hell has to freeze over before the corporate world switches to the Apple platform. Most of you are probably too young to remember the time when the corporate world was dominated by IBM and IBM alone, and how they welcomed Microsoft - one industry standard software platform, but complete independence from the hardware vendor.

Now some companies welcome the Linux platforms as their liberator from the Microsoft "monopoly" - which they helped create in the first place.

But nobody wants to go back to the times when ONE vendor "ruled them all". Apple uses the same fifty year old business model IBM had used back in the day. This might work for cell phones and mp3 players, but it no longer works in large IT environments. As a matter of fact, it had ceased working in the early 1980s already, when Compaq sold their first "IBM compatible PC" and Microsoft licensed MS-DOS to them and later to all other clone vendors.

Nevertheless, Microsoft and IBM are still the biggest player in the world of corporate IT software and services, and that won't change anytime soon. The investments have been way too high, and there simply is no compelling reason to go away from the existing solutions. The TCO of Open Source software in real life is NOT below the TCO of Microsoft solutions, and OSS solutions are also not more reliable. And in most cases, they're not even really corporate-friendly or corporate-compatible. The best example is Sharepoint Portal and its Open Source "competition". (In case you haven't gotten the cynical joke: There. Is. No. Competition.) Microsoft understands the requirements of their enterprise customers. The Open Source community does not.

I have a long enough background in quite big global organizations and their IT requirements and demands. And when I was a freshly brainwashed new-born Apple user, I tried to convince the IT management of the blessings of Apple. They wiped it quicker from the table than I could look, and some of the - very valid - reasons I've mentioned above, about some some others I've blogged. Non-existent product roadmaps is another killer argument against Apple in the corporate world. And the software incompatibility of OS X to legacy applications doesn't help either. It's also a bit "pricy" to integrate them into a large network domain, if it's possible at all. Remote administration is another issue, as is centralized push installation of software or the rollout of thousands of machines with a pre-installed software image. It's probably all solvable one way or the other, but still the question remains whether it's worth it. In most cases, it's not, because there simply is not sufficient business-oriented software available for OS X. And not everything is going to the web, and many things never ever should.

Microsoft has received disastrous press resonance for Vista, probably mostly based upon glimpses at the 32-Bit edition of the system. Most companies are not excited about it either. Well, companies never were excited about a new software release, and they never will be. All a new software release ever is is new costs, usually at too little return of investment. And most companies never upgrade to every new versions. Most of the time, they skip one or even two update cycles. Many entities are currently upgrading to Windows Server 2003 or 2008... from Windows NT 4.0.

The bottom line here is that Microsoft is supporting its platforms over very long periods of time, and although Vista was a major architectural overhaul - especially in its 64-Bit incarnation - it still is highly compatible to legacy software. As a company, you can rely on a Microsoft solution for an extraordinarily long time axis, Microsoft's business products have something called longevity.

Contrary to that, the Linux developers change their APIs with every release, breaking existing code, and Apple traditionally only supports their last two platform releases, and they release major platform updates in average every 18 months. Sure, there are (commercial) Linux distributions that come with long term support, but they come at the price that you are locked-in to that specific distribution vendor, because the software for one does not necessarily run on another distribution without any changes. That kind of fragmentation is the worst enemy of Linux.

Linux has become very popular as the L in the LAMP stack, or as the foundation for database servers and as the software kernel in hardware appliances. It still is a disaster on the desktop for too many reasons to list here.

Linux might be eating some market share of Solaris, but SUN still is a big player in the data center. And SUN owns many of the technologies that power today's web server farms. The M in the LAMP stack being only one of them.

OS X Server has almost no significance and only very few customers world-wide. OS X is a desktop OS targeted at consumers and, to a certain extent, prosumers (in the traditional niche of the graphics design and audio/music and video editing business). That's a large enough niche for Apple to be successful enough as a corporation. But assuming that they will grow out of that niche with the current direction in which Apple's management is going is day-dreaming and wishful thinking.

If Apple wants to occupy a larger market niche - and I strongly doubt that they even WANT to do that - they have to open their platform to third party hardware vendors. It probably would also make perfect sense if they joined forces with SUN. Apple has the client platform, SUN the data center-ready server technology.

But we all know that none of this will ever happen. Besides certain reality distortion fields, there are also some megalomaniac management egos in that equation that don't play well with others.

And as long as even web browsers need an operating system to run on, Microsoft's position isn't endangered at all.
 
The only reason cut and paste is useful in Windows is because the Windows style of displaying files and the entire method of window management sucks. That's not true on Mac OS.

Well, I guess it's a question of personal preferences. One of the only thing I like in Windows it's cut and paste ;)

(And maybe the fact that you can create/rename/delete any folder in almost any dialog window...)
 
Yes, Leopard already is a nice platform for home users, and Snow Leopard will probably be a bit faster and maybe even a bit nicer. But still, it's a home user platform and it won't grow out of that market niche.

Trust me, the capabilities of Mac OS X far exceed the hardware that Apple chooses to use with it. It was not too long ago the OS for the user above the home user. The hardware changed to an almost entirely lower end consumer orientation, the OS hasn't. In fact, its gotten stronger.
 
What are the advantages of 64-bit and 32-bit

And what are the main differences? :)

These both relate to the speeds of the processor in you computer. 64-bit is twice as fast as 32-bit.

If these speeds are included in the netbooks processor (hopefully it will continue to be x86) that might be coming out, it would be much faster than ever before.
 
These both relate to the speeds of the processor in you computer. 64-bit is twice as fast as 32-bit.

If these speeds are included in the netbooks processor (hopefully it will continue to be x86) that might be coming out, it would be much faster than ever before.
I'm trusting that you are joking that the main difference is 64-bit being twice as fast as 32-bit.

And Atom which is the only x86 processor really designed for netbooks already supports 64-bit.
 
OpenCL and Grand Central are single handedly going make Snow Leopard the best OS ever. With M$ scratching their heads, still trying to figure out how to patch the Vista and sell it as Windows-7 they are going to loose the race. Linux and OSX will emerge as two heavyweight OSs in next few years. M$ is history.

I know there will be many of the opinion that most commercial / development houses still use Windows. But from the present trend and companies trying not to rely on flawed windows have already started to migrate to Linux and OSX. I work for a leading edge technology company and half of my companies computers are already using linux and osx for core development stuff.

For Apple to win, M$ does not have to loose..... Steve Jobs ====> coz M$ will eventually fall out anyways :p

Linus and OSx enerage as 2 heavyweights? That's a big assumption lol. Btw what leading edge technology company do you work for?
 
Not the first...

MPI and OpenMP were the first, open-standard, cross-platform parallel programming APIs. This one was the "first" to integrate GPGPU, Cell, and other processors other than the main CPU(s). It's a great achievement, but a little false advertising in the post at least.
 
Copy-and-paste is, of course, a glaring omission on the iPhone. However, cut-and-paste in the Finder sounds like a potential nightmare. What if someone "cuts" an important application or file and is interrupted by a phone call or steps away from the computer, forgetting to "paste" it somewhere? Where does it go? It makes more sense to drag and drop. For the PC types, Apple has already implemented copy-and-paste for document and file icons (OS X 10.4).

What feature is this? I'm using 10.3.9, and I can select, say, an image file, hit cmd+c, open a new folder, hit cmd+v, and I get a copy of the image in that folder as well as where it was originally, not a shortcut/alias. What I am missing out on?
 
These both relate to the speeds of the processor in you computer. 64-bit is twice as fast as 32-bit.

Nowhere near.

If you benchmark 64-bit programs under a 64-bit OS on a modern CPU, you will find that they are nowhere near 2X as fast as 32-bit programs, especially for apps that use less than 2 to 4 GB of total RAM memory.

Nintendo used the 64-bit mode of the MIPS4200 CPU in the N64 because they found it to be around 5% to 10% faster for some operations.

.
 
Apple can't be perfect on everything....at least give them credit on OpenCL for looking forward to the future.

Looking into the future?! Why do you think they bundle Garage Band with every Mac? (hint: iTunes sells music)
 
And as long as even web browsers need an operating system to run on, Microsoft's position isn't endangered at all.

But that's the thing, web browsers don't need an OS well not at least what your average guy thinks is in OS.
People only need an OS for the stuff they do outside the Browser which isn't that much.
The browser only needs an OS because it's Hardware Extracted.

It wouldn't be that hard to build a minimal OS to support a browser like Firefox or Googles Chrome that has no User Interface outside of the browser.

I think Apple are clearly hoping someone does. The real motivation of having WebKit open source. Break the deadlock of Microsoft's position and ensure their niche is the one that stays valuable.



EDIT; Google doing their best to make OS unseen
 
Finder is very close to perfection, some missing features like cut-n-paste need to be added pretty soon so that PC-switchers.... are not let down by missing basic features like this one....

Um, no. It's buggy, slow, and generally suckful.
 
I hope SUN uses this to in solaris. i dream one day of having a power mac with an all ZFS drives (even the boot sector's for OSX and Solaris) and dual booting the both of them.. mmmmm give me warm fuzzies inside just thinking of it.

You can boot Sun Sparc and x64 machines on ZFS with the latest Solaris 10 10/08 release. My ancient Sparc-based Ultra 60 was just rebuilt with bootable ZFS. If Sun can do it with 10 year old hardware and Open Firmware, I think Apple can do it with Intel hardware and EFI BIOS.
 
Unfortunately, like most Mac OS X's better features, OpenCL and Grand Central need a Mac Pro to take full advantage.

Apple is not trying to make an new OS that is going to give a speed bump to the existing machines or just pretty UI, thats what M$ does (Vista). It is laying the foundation for the current and next generation hardware lineup that will gain a lot of advantage from OpenCL and Grandcentral. The specs that are now standard on MacPro will be standard on lower end Macs sooner that we are anticipating.

This technological changes in OSX core might not appeal to normal users instantly. Give it some time and you will realize that as consumer hardware has exponentially increasing core numbers and GPUs this enhancements would improve the OS performance by leaps and bounds.


People don't like change. If you are used to Vista, you don't wanna use OSX (let alone Linux) because it feels weird to adapt. And again, most people don't care if it takes advantage of the GPU or manages the RAM better, because most people don't even know what RAM is.

People working in development / commercial houses are used to change more than you are. Technology cannot remain standstill. I agree that Linux does have a steep learning curve but companies are encouraging their employees to invest that time in the learning cause in long run they save on OS licensing and also for huge licensing $$$$ they need to pay for development crap they have to buy from M$. Equivalent Open source stuff comes for free.

At the same time people should not expect Snow Leopard to boost your existing needs by leaps and bounds on the day it comes out. This will better as developers start taking advantage of these and as more and more cores and GPUs are available on systems.
 
Apple is not trying to make an new OS that is going to give a speed bump to the existing machines or just pretty UI, thats what M$ does (Vista). It is laying the foundation for the current and next generation hardware lineup that will gain a lot of advantage from OpenCL and Grandcentral. The specs that are now standard on MacPro will be standard on lower end Macs sooner that we are anticipating.

This technological changes in OSX core might not appeal to normal users instantly. Give it some time and you will realize that as consumer hardware has exponentially increasing core numbers and GPUs this enhancements would improve the OS performance by leaps and bounds.




People working in development / commercial houses are used to change more than you are. Technology cannot remain standstill. I agree that Linux does have a steep learning curve but companies are encouraging their employees to invest that time in the learning cause in long run they save on OS licensing and also for huge licensing $$$$ they need to pay for development crap they have to buy from M$. Equivalent Open source stuff comes for free.

At the same time people should not expect Snow Leopard to boost your existing needs by leaps and bounds on the day it comes out. This will better as developers start taking advantage of these and as more and more cores and GPUs are available on systems.

Current hardware will appear to get a shot in the rear as soon as 3rd party developers augment their applications to leverage GrandCentral and OpenCL APIs.
 
Current hardware will appear to get a shot in the rear as soon as 3rd party developers augment their applications to leverage GrandCentral and OpenCL APIs.

Again, I hear the hype machine in overdrive.

If "current hardware" means the latest Nvidia laptops, Mac Pros and most Imacs, that's reasonable. "Core 2 Duo" won't necessarily be "current".

Second, OpenCL/GrandCentral don't really do much for multi-core CPUs that can't be done already. They make multi-threaded coding a bit easier - but other than that they don't have anything that can't be done with current code frameworks.

The important multi-threaded apps won't get faster - they're already using all the cores.

OpenCL does add GPU processing to the table, but GPUs are not CPUs. They are screaming floating point pipeline engines - but floating point pipelines aren't going to do a lot for your browser, email and word processor. The GPUs also have some specialty features like hardware video decoding - but at least if you run dual-boot you've been able to get that from Windows for a long time.

As someone a couple of posts back said, these new frameworks will be great foundations for the quad/hex/octo core chips and more advanced graphics coming down the pipeline - but for last year's machines they'll be mostly a yawn.
 
Again, I hear the hype machine in overdrive.

If "current hardware" means the latest Nvidia laptops, Mac Pros and most Imacs, that's reasonable. "Core 2 Duo" won't necessarily be "current".

Second, OpenCL/GrandCentral don't really do much for multi-core CPUs that can't be done already. They make multi-threaded coding a bit easier - but other than that they don't have anything that can't be done with current code frameworks.

The important multi-threaded apps won't get faster - they're already using all the cores.

OpenCL does add GPU processing to the table, but GPUs are not CPUs. They are screaming floating point pipeline engines - but floating point pipelines aren't going to do a lot for your browser, email and word processor. The GPUs also have some specialty features like hardware video decoding - but at least if you run dual-boot you've been able to get that from Windows for a long time.

As someone a couple of posts back said, these new frameworks will be great foundations for the quad/hex/octo core chips and more advanced graphics coming down the pipeline - but for last year's machines they'll be mostly a yawn.

Nice way of confusing threading with Symmetrical multi-processing models. They aren't remotely the same beast.

By the way, if you have 2 or more cores you'll notice that without the exception of some low level messaging via the kernel most of the CPU cycles aren't even being tapped in to cores (2n + 2: n>=0) from user space land.

Apple's GrandCentral is about providing a clean Cocoa API for OpenMPI (http://www.open-mpi.org/), plus more.

Apple is being judicious in exposing Cocoa to provide a set of APIs for which 99.9% of the current market doesn't even bother to leverage. How come? It's a ton of work.

OpenMPI for OS X and Linux are currently running quietly on my boxes, but they don't really get much use at the desktop because OS X, KDE, GNOME and more are still working on their platform specific high-level APIs to incorporate them into the daily lives of us all.

Not to mention, there are no ObjC libraries for OpenMPI, outside of Apple, so whether you see a much more responsive UI experience on a Mac Mini or Core2Duo Macbook/Macbook Pro of 2007 will vary with the applications, but even those books running OS X Snow Leopard will definitely be able to leverage portions of the heavy lifting Apple has been doing with OpenCL and GrandCentral.

Mac Pros will see the most, along-side Xservers. Nehalem based systems and onward by default will see a big shot in the arm because Intel has worked hard to make sure it's architecture is flexible and accessible to such tools.

AMD have done the same sort of work for their CPUs and GPUs.

But as you noted, the more Cores, the merrier, especially in cluster based, distributed grid environments.
 
Nice way of confusing threading with Symmetrical multi-processing models. They aren't remotely the same beast.

What?

That's one of the silliest responses that I've seen on these fora - "threading" isn't related to "multi-processing"? Are you kidding?

While, of course, you can use threaded programming models on a uni-core machine - it's on a multi-core system that threading is what fundamentally exposes parallelism within a single process context.

And, by the way, none of your arguments address my position that OpenCL/GrandCentral don't bring anything new to the multi-core table - they simplify things, not bring new capabilities.
_____

Please, also note that my last few posts here have not meant to knock OpenCL/GrandCentral per se -- I've been trying to point out that for most people, on most applications, on most systems already sold - ICL/GC won't make a noticeable improvement in the speed of their systems.
 
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