Opinion: If the new iPhone (3G) has a GPS, how will it be offered?

[hexonxonx]

OK, I am stunned here.

As another poster has already said, in the UK at least, I have a TomTom GO 510. I paid a one off fee, get step by step navigation, and free map updates every few months. How come you get charged for doing exactly the same thing on a phone, that you can do for free, and on a bigger screen, with a stand alone TomTom unit? Anyone would be crazy to pay a monthly fee for something you can get for free!!!

Please explain, I am totally lost!!!

Because it's a cellphone. The service providers consider it an add on service and an excellent way for them to increase revenue (for Apple as well). It's likely that the GPS software will be on the phone, but to activate it, will take adding it on through AT&T similar to the way SMS are bought.

I too have a Garmin GPS, in fact I have two Garmin Nuvi 680s so I have no use for a GPS on my iPhone, especially one where it will likely be fee based.

 

[m477h3w]

Because it's a cellphone. The service providers consider it an add on service and an excellent way for them to increase revenue (for Apple as well). It's likely that the GPS software will be on the phone, but to activate it, will take adding it on through AT&T similar to the way SMS are bought.

I too have a Garmin GPS, in fact I have two Garmin Nuvi 680s so I have no use for a GPS on my iPhone, especially one where it will likely be fee based.

I don't really think that is reason to charge customers unnecessarily! But anyway. I was hoping to be able to sell my iPod, TomTom and iPhone in June to buy all three in one - '32gb iPhone with GPS', but if they are going to charge, I too will be keeping my TomTom!

 

[samab]

OK, I am stunned here.

As another poster has already said, in the UK at least, I have a TomTom GO 510. I paid a one off fee, get step by step navigation, and free map updates every few months. How come you get charged for doing exactly the same thing on a phone, that you can do for free, and on a bigger screen, with a stand alone TomTom unit? Anyone would be crazy to pay a monthly fee for something you can get for free!!!

Please explain, I am totally lost!!!

1) You are paying $300-400 for a TomTom Go 510 vs. even zero dollar mobile phones from Verizon in the US able to get turn-by-turn navigation.

2) You still have to pay a monthly subscription service for the TomTom Go 510 --- if you want live traffic information. Cell phone carrier's navigation services (including the new version of VZ Navigator) have live traffic avoidance built-in.

http://www.tomtom.com/plus/services/traffic.php

3) In order to do live traffic for your TomTom Go 510 --- you need to get a data plan for your cell phone. Cell phone carrier's navigation services don't charge you minutes or kilobytes on your cell phone.

 

[skwoytek]

Every us carrier charges a fee for gps use on cellphones so if its offered I dont see it beeing free. But I rather use my garmin instead of paying monthly and draining my iPhone battery

My thought is that Apple has already told AT&T that the iPhone belongs to Apple. It will not be branded in anyway by AT&T short of displaying the carrier. In fact, AT&T was told they cannot advertise the iPhone, it's Apple's.

I don't think anything prevents Apple from providing GPS service with the one time cost of the hardware. The GPS triangulation is free, it's always beaming. The maps are not updated by AT&T, it just requires a data connection. Live traffic rerouting is also just a data connection. It's a service outside of AT&T which Apple could easily pay a licensing fee to, just as they do Skyhook.

For those complaining about battery life, I'm sure there would be some sort of mount with a dock connector for power. I'm sure just like with WiFi you would be able to turn it off. And I'm sure you could use it without the mount while walking.

But those are just my thoughts.

 

[samab]

I don't think anything prevents Apple from providing GPS service with the one time cost of the hardware.

The only thing that prevents Apple from doing that --- is Apple's desire to charge you a monthly subscription fee for the GPS service.

 

[toddngina]

OK, I am stunned here.

As another poster has already said, in the UK at least, I have a TomTom GO 510. I paid a one off fee, get step by step navigation, and free map updates every few months. How come you get charged for doing exactly the same thing on a phone, that you can do for free, and on a bigger screen, with a stand alone TomTom unit? Anyone would be crazy to pay a monthly fee for something you can get for free!!!

Please explain, I am totally lost!!!

OK, let me help. You're saying that it's crazy for a device manufacturer to charge a fee for providing you the functionality of your TomTom GO 510. Well then, by that logic, your TomTom GO 510 should also be free. Did you just walk into the store, and snatch one off the free shelf? You paid for the service, but you paid all up front. OR you could pay 5-10 bucks (pounds, quid, I guess) a month for all the resources that go into giving you this awesome functionality. Can't always have your cake and eat it too.

 

[m477h3w]

OK, let me help. You're saying that it's crazy for a device manufacturer to charge a fee for providing you the functionality of your TomTom GO 510. Well then, by that logic, your TomTom GO 510 should also be free. Did you just walk into the store, and snatch one off the free shelf? You paid for the service, but you paid all up front. OR you could pay 5-10 bucks (pounds, quid, I guess) a month for all the resources that go into giving you this awesome functionality. Can't always have your cake and eat it too.

OK that is a good point. Although I may add that I am not some 'spoilt brat' who expects everything for free, I just assumed that the new iPhone would be a bit more expensive, rather than chaning for the extra funtionality on a monthly basis. We will see what happens though I suppose.

 

[hollerz]

OK that is a good point. Although I may add that I am not some 'spoilt brat' who expects everything for free, I just assumed that the new iPhone would be a bit more expensive, rather than chaning for the extra funtionality on a monthly basis. We will see what happens though I suppose.

I think I just assumed the same thing, that the phone would be more expensive if it had GPS. Just different ways of doing things in the US I guess!

 

[ansalmo]

Are you talking just pure GPS or "live turn by turn navigation"?

Nokia gives you the GPS and the maps for free for the n95 --- however if you want the live turn by turn navigation for the n95, you have to pay the monthly fee. The monthly fee applies to UK Nokia n95 as well.

http://www.n95mapping.co.uk/html/N95_mapping.aspx

This is a youtube video on how the Verizon Navigation (which is a monthly fee based turn by turn navigation service) works on a cell phone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yurqFgTIm3c

I'll give you the example of my last phone, a HTC device running Windows Mobile. I bought it on a £25/month 12-month contract, with the phone itself subsidised down to around 80 pounds. At the point of purchase, I was offered CoPilot navigation software at a cost of 50 pounds (an outright purchase, with no additional monthly fee). I turned this down and purchased TomTom instead - again, an outright purchase with no monthly fee. Some months later, I decided to upgrade my maps and so purchased these at a cost of somewhere in the region of 30 euros. They've kept me going for a year.

All of this software is full turn-by-turn navigation - the phone bundled some position-reporting utility, but nothing useful.

I really can't see any monthly fee for GPS being received well in the UK. I'd personally just keep using my WinMob device for in-car nav in that case.

 

[rockstarjoe]

I would be very surprised if they charged a monthly fee for GPS. It seems like most people are saying that a fee will be charged because that is what all of the other carriers do. Well, I think Apple/AT&T have already shown that they are willing to do things differently in order to entice new subscribers. My guess is GPS will be included and will be free.

 

[samab]

I turned this down and purchased TomTom instead - again, an outright purchase with no monthly fee. Some months later, I decided to upgrade my maps and so purchased these at a cost of somewhere in the region of 30 euros. They've kept me going for a year.

All of this software is full turn-by-turn navigation - the phone bundled some position-reporting utility, but nothing useful.

I really can't see any monthly fee for GPS being received well in the UK. I'd personally just keep using my WinMob device for in-car nav in that case.

But if you want live traffic information for your tomtom --- you still need to pay a monthly subscription fee to tomtom. Cell phone carrier's navigation service already includes live traffic information in their prices.

 

[samab]

I would be very surprised if they charged a monthly fee for GPS. It seems like most people are saying that a fee will be charged because that is what all of the other carriers do. Well, I think Apple/AT&T have already shown that they are willing to do things differently in order to entice new subscribers. My guess is GPS will be included and will be free.

It has nothing to do with Apple/AT&T. It has everything to do with Verizon Wireless. Verizon is so strong --- that AT&T has to eat the "iphone tax" themselves (i.e. a $20 iphone data plan cost the same as a $20 regular data plan for non-iphones).

Elsewhere, the iphone plans in Europe are many times more expensive than comparative data plans in Europe --- and their justification is that they have visual voice mail and wifi hotspots built into the plan.

 

[ansalmo]

But if you want live traffic information for your tomtom --- you still need to pay a monthly subscription fee to tomtom. Cell phone carrier's navigation service already includes live traffic information in their prices.

The usually-accepted method in the UK is to purchase a TMC-capable unit, or a TMC receiver for your mobile - the lifetime sub for traffic info is usually included in the purchase price or is a small additional cost (e.g £20 lifetime for Sony units).

GPS is generally perceived as a one-hit-cost service in the UK - you purchase a sat-nav system (whether a standalone unit, or software for your mobile) and, other than purchasing optional map updates, that's your entire outlay. Attempting to charge for the service is going to meet a stony reception here, unless there's compelling additional functionality provided.

 

[samab]

The usually-accepted method in the UK is to purchase a TMC-capable unit, or a TMC receiver for your mobile - the lifetime sub for traffic info is usually included in the purchase price or is a small additional cost (e.g £20 lifetime for Sony units).

GPS is generally perceived as a one-hit-cost service in the UK - you purchase a sat-nav system (whether a standalone unit, or software for your mobile) and, other than purchasing optional map updates, that's your entire outlay. Attempting to charge for the service is going to meet a stony reception here, unless there's compelling additional functionality provided.

UK doesn't have a free TMC service. Then it is just an "accounting" issue --- whether you are getting charge by the month or by a a time fee --- you are still going to be charged.

In coutnries where there are mixtures of free and fee-based TMC service --- the fee-based TMC service gets updated information first. That's just the nature of the business.

 

[mark34]

I say no go on the GPS. They may add it to the rumored "newton" type pda device, but not to the phone. Just my opinion. I just don't believe there is enough consumer demand to add something that will drain the battery life and impact form factor potentially. I've been wrong before, I think.

People on this board probably represent the vast majority of people that really would want one. The only time I would want one is when traveling and in a rental car, but i am not sure i want my phone doing all the gps work, since i will probably be using the phone. You can get a gps from every rental car agency in the u.s. for only a little more.

 

[kdarling]

People on this board probably represent the vast majority of people that really would want one. The only time I would want one is when traveling and in a rental car, ....

"People" don't know what they want, until they see what it can do

Many new iPhone owners never knew they "needed" Google Maps and search ability in a phone, or the ability to web surf easily.

There are some neat GPS apps that are here or coming. One current example that comes to mind is the ability to point your device's camera at a building or other object of interest. The location, direction (this requires a compass, perhaps) and image are uploaded and identified.

In return, information about the building is overlaid on the camera image, and you can drill down for more info about its inhabitants, workers, company, tourist info, transportation and food options, you name it. Perhaps what the price is and its inside pictures, if it's a house for sale.

These kind of apps go far beyond the location, direction, picture geo-tagging, family and friend locating, and other normally expected GPS abilities. I don't even think we can yet imagine all that will be done.

 

[jeffreyfort]

I still think there is some confusion on the part of some posters here. I have no doubt that a cell phone service provider can and will charge for using their towers to find out where you are. I wouldn't even call that GPS. It is not a GLOBAL Positioning System -- it is a cell tower triangulation system. And that's what the current iPhone/Google Map system is. It would be of no use where there isn't a cell signal or WIFI. What will become available, I assume, with iPhone2 is true GPS using data generated from satellites. I expect there won't be a GPS receiver in the phone. Instead, there will be a capability to receive the data from an external GPS receiver that sends the data to iPhone via BT -- again, just as it is done on a Treo. Then software is the only limitation.

 

[ansalmo]

UK doesn't have a free TMC service. Then it is just an "accounting" issue --- whether you are getting charge by the month or by a a time fee --- you are still going to be charged.

When the lifetime sub is only 20 quid, it's an acceptable one-off charge - to be replaced by a monthly sub, it would have to be less than a pound to even out. Likely? I doubt it.

 

[mark34]

I agree about the amazing possibilities. I just don't usually see Apple putting out products that are ahead of the curve (not that GPS is ahead, but fully integrated set of GPS apps beyond just mapping is). They usually find a way to integrate fully adopted technology in a far superior manner, like the iPhone. I see many such app ideas as you mention and more due the kind of work I do and I believe that RFID-type tagging and GPS will soon be in everything and the applications are limitless. (though my privacy minded side gets a little tight-sphinctered at the thought). My point is that I don't believe Apple will feel that such applications and the right minded hardware/software elements are in place for them to steam forward in this arena. Like I said, I may be wrong. I do see them taking further advantage of cell tower based triangulation for certain things in the meantime..

Ah... who knows, I just want a 3G iPhone with good battery life. I have been using a 3G USB card with my MacBook Air and I am very pleased with the speed. It feels as fast as low end broadband, like entry level DSL. Perfectly satisfactory for basic browsing including YouTube and even Slingbox. The iPhone will be zippy on 3G. I am in Austin and we have good coverage with AT&T and I have found good coverage most places I have traveled.

 

[samab]

When the lifetime sub is only 20 quid, it's an acceptable one-off charge - to be replaced by a monthly sub, it would have to be less than a pound to even out. Likely? I doubt it.

But the GPS makers also makes profits from the sale of the hardware itself.

I don't know if UK has rules that force all cell phones to have the technology for emergency location --- but in the US, all cell phones must have e911 capabilities. It means that basically any zero dollar phone in the US is able to do turn by turn navigation with live traffic updates if you subscribe to the cell phone carrier's navigation service ($10 a month or $3 a day).

For many people, it's great to use any zero dollar phone (which they didn't pay for) --- spend $3 a day for cell phone navigation to have weekend trips during the summer time.

 

[kdarling]

... in the US, all cell phones must have e911 capabilities. It means that basically any zero dollar phone in the US is able to do turn by turn navigation ...

Tower based locating, such as the GSM carriers in the US use for E911, is only required by the FCC to be within 300 to 1000 feet. GPS-based (Verizon, Sprint, mostly) must be within 150 to 300 feet.

And that's only required for 67%-95% of the calls, not every one. For example, if you're out in the woods or the midwest where there's only one tower within range, then they'll only find you within perhaps a mile or two if using tower-based triangulation.

Turn by turn navigation is only possible with GPS or A-GPS (or external GPS puck) equipped phones. The CDMA carriers use those a lot. GSM carriers such as ATT also sell a few or recommend ones which can use a puck.

 

[samab]

Tower based locating, such as the GSM carriers in the US use for E911, is only required by the FCC to be within 300 to 1000 feet. GPS-based (Verizon, Sprint, mostly) must be within 150 to 300 feet.

And that's only required for 67%-95% of the calls, not every one. For example, if you're out in the woods or the midwest where there's only one tower within range, then they'll only find you within perhaps a mile or two if using tower-based triangulation.

Turn by turn navigation is only possible with GPS or A-GPS (or external GPS puck) equipped phones. The CDMA carriers use those a lot. GSM carriers such as ATT also sell a few or recommend ones which can use a puck.

The laws of supply and demand will kick in and forces AT&T and T-mobile USA to upgrade their tower based locating beyond the minimum levels required by the FCC.

LBS is the only killer app that has lived up its hype (as opposed to MMS, video calling and mobile tv).

Consumer demands will force AT&T to upgrade to better technology --- without FCC intervention.

 

[kdarling]

The laws of supply and demand will kick in and forces AT&T and T-mobile USA to upgrade their tower based locating beyond the minimum levels required by the FCC.

I believe that ATT uses this method, accurate to about 150 feet.

It's not likely that solely tower-based will ever get good enough for turn-by-turn in many places. Cities, major towns, and on the flip side, remote areas just don't have the accuracy and/or number of towers.

Consumer demands will force AT&T to upgrade to better technology --- without FCC intervention.

Many do think that all carriers will go to mostly GPS equipped handsets.

 

[samab]

I believe that ATT uses this method, accurate to about 150 feet.

It's not likely that solely tower-based will ever get good enough for turn-by-turn in many places. Cities, major towns, and on the flip side, remote areas just don't have the accuracy and/or number of towers.



Many do think that all carriers will go to mostly GPS equipped handsets.

You can say the same thing for GPS -- which requires line of sight signals.

The analgue cell phone network is gone --- so whatever signal they get it's digital which means that AGPS will be available everywhere.

If you are in the middle of nowhere, sure accuracy could suffer --- but if you are in the middle of nowhere, there aren't many side streets so you don't even need 150 feet accuracy.