OS 9 install on 8600

Discussion in 'Apple Collectors' started by bunnspecial, Mar 24, 2015.

  1. bunnspecial macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #1
    I seem to be having a string of bad luck with Old World ROM Macs.

    I have an 8600 that I bought the other day. When I received it, it was working fine with OS 8.5, but I wanted to upgrade it to OS 9. The computer had some old owners' files on it, so I re-initialized the drive to do a clean install.

    The computer will boot up perfectly with an OS 9 retail disk. I can run the installer fine, but it will give me an error message when installing "Internet Access." I've attempted doing a custom install with this aspect of the install omitted, and the installation proceeds fine with no errors.

    When I restart the computer, it will boot to the desktop and hang. Sometimes, the time appears and I can move the cursor, but it won't go beyond this. Other times, I can't even move the cursor. It boots and works fine if I boot without extensions.

    Additionally, I had thought at one point that I would downgrade to OS 8. My OS 8 install disk won't even boot-it gives a "bomb" error during the boot process and tells me to restart without extensions.

    The computer has a 4gb SCSI HDD, and 416mb of RAM.

    I was initially running the computer with a flat panel connected to a PCI Rage 128. I removed that card, and am using the on-board video at the moment with a 16" Multi-Scan Apple display.
     
  2. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #2
    Okay, a further update:

    I thought I'd go ahead and upgrade to 9.1. On the first boot, I got another "bomb" with a warning that the Apple Audio Extension would not load properly and that I needed to restart. I restarted without extensions, then disabled that extension.

    Now, it will boot to the desktop and hang at a while dialog box(no text ever appears on it). No menu bar items appear, I can move the cursor.

    It still starts fine in 9.1 with no extensions.
     
  3. weckart macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    #3
    I vaguely remember somebody having problems with booting 9.1 on said machine. These seemed to be Quicktime related. You could try disabling those extensions and rebooting. If that doesn't help, then I can only suggest disabling all but the essential then adding a few back at a time to weed out the gremlins. Dunno if Conflict Catcher would speed up the process.
     
  4. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #4
    Odd problems often lead me to - bad RAM.

    The best RAM test I found for old non-OSX machines was TechToolPro v3.0.9 with all RAM tests and "Full Memory" selected. (See pic).

    It takes a long time, but I solved a few machines which passed even Apple's own MTP service memory tests.

    Of course, you could try, deleting "Apple Menu Options Prefs" and "Appletalk Preferences", reboot whilst holding "Option" "Apple" "P" "R" keys (to zap the PRAM) - allowing it to chime 3 (YES Three) times, then release the keys allowing it to boot.

    You could try taking out half the RAM, and/or removing the Level 2 Cache DIM (if it has one).

    Remember, these machines can interleave RAM, by installing the same type/size of DIMM in A1 & B1, then A2 & B2 slots etc. Not having the same manufacturer or size of RAM in "A1" and it's corresponding "B1" bank may cause the machine to disable interleaving, or worse, running interleaving with RAM modules whose timing are slightly different, causing strange crashes, especially when you fit faster CPU cards and G3 upgrade cards.

    Also, bear in mind that the sockets on the motherboard and the edgefingers of the DIMMs, CPU, Cache and PCI cards can intermittently break connection due to age, dust and tarnishing. These usually manifest as hard freezes where the mouse pointer 'locks' on screen and won't move.

    I used to to a test, disconnecting the hard drive and booting from a CD. Once the OS had loaded, I'd rock the various cards, DIMMs and cache from side to side, and if the pointer froze, then that item needed cleaning.

    Other than that, leaking caps could also be a problem with machines of this age.
     

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  5. tevion5 macrumors 68000

    tevion5

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    Location:
    Ireland
    #5
    I think that'd be me! Was a totally different issue in afraid. Mine was to do with a QuickTime extension relating to my QuickTake camera. I never had any issues simply installing OS 9.0 - 9.2.2 at all in afraid :/
     
  6. weckart, Mar 25, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2015

    weckart macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2004
    #6
    It was not on this forum. I shall have a search and see if I can dig it up. Bad RAM seems like a good call, too, since Apple started clamping down on dodgy RAM around the release of OS9.

    [edit] I think this was the thread or something like it. It was a long time ago.

    http://comp.sys.mac.misc.narkive.com/YnyHII1l/os-9-2-1-on-a-power-mac-8600
     
  7. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #7
    The only Quicktime extension that I know to be problematic is the Quicktime Jpeg Update" extension (which can be deleted without issue), but none that cause crashes and freezes. :confused:
     
  8. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #8
    I ran TechToolsPro 3.0.9 this morning, and it reported numerous RAM errors, so it seems as though that's the source of my problem. I need to play with it and see if I can get the function MacTech shows above where it pinpoints problematic DIMMS.

    Unfortunately, a little annoying thing called work got in the way, so I wasn't able to do anything else. Here's the report, though.

    I may try the brute for "Wiggle" method mentioned above also.
     

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  9. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
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    Australia, Perth
    #9
    I should point out that (sadly) TechToolPro doesn't tell you which module is faulty.

    Use the "half at a time" method to find the bad module.
     
  10. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #10
    Will do this evening...that should be a fun process. I'm hoping that it's just a dirty slot, as I really hate giving the 416mb of RAM.

    I have a 9600 on the way that should be here tomorrow...hopefully I won't have to go through the same song and dance with it.
     
  11. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #11
    I removed all the RAM from the "A" slots, and it booted perfectly into OS 9 with no issues at all.

    So, it seems as though the RAM is the problem. Some of the RAM sticks are visibly different and seem to be scattered hap-hazard, so perhaps I should just remove everything and pair them up as best as I can. Everything that I removed was ECC(it was a mix of 64mb and 32mb) while not all of the RAM in "B" is ECC.

    I also am sitting here looking at a box full 168 pin EDO FPM 60ns ECC RAM that were pulled from some workstations I parted out at work the other day. I think each stick is 128mb, and each system had 16 of them. I parted out 3, and have 3 more to go-so in summary I have a LOT of this RAM. At the moment, I have 48 of them, and will have 96 when all is said and done. I just need to double check the voltage on it, as the last bunch of RAM I had out of of similar systems was 5V, and I understand this can damage the Mac logic boards that want 3.5V RAM. If indeed it's correct, I'll just load the system up with this stuff-it's all identical, so I shouldn't have any problems with mismatch.
     
  12. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #12
    Just to make sure before I load this thing up-the modules I have a ton of are the first line on the below data sheet(mh16v72atj-5)

    http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dl/Scans-061/DSA2IH0099224.pdf

    If I'm reading right, these should be 128mb, 50ns, 3.3V, buffered modules. Since each side has 9 chips, I think they should be ECC also. If these will work, it will give me 1gb of fully matched RAM, which would seem to great not only for interleaving but also sheer memory capacity. (I'm also excited about the ability to upgrade my on-the-way 9600 to 1.5gb).
     
  13. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #13
    Okay, I think that I have things sorted out.

    I pulled ALL the RAM, and matched it up. I then installed it in pairs, A1 and B1, etc. There were a few mismatched modules, but I was able to get an identical pair plus another pair of 64mb modules that were different manufacturers but had the same timing and effectively the same chip layout. I dug into my small stash of FPM RAM, and found another pair of 64mb 60ns modules. I was left with some 32mb modules, but could not get the computer to boot with the 32mbs paired in A4 and B4-I'll just leave them out for now.

    Also, the 128mb RAM I referenced above won't fit. It looks like it should, but apparently the center key is one pin off.

    I'm tempted to just break down and put in a big order with OWC for some 128mb modules so I can load up both this one and my 9600. I have a G4 processor card on the way, and am tempted to install Leopard on the 8600 as Macrumors member Intell did. The 9600 is a dual 200mhz, so I'm probably going to leave it alone.

    In any case, for now the 8600 is running great with OS 9.1, so am happy. Thank you to everyone for the help!
     
  14. MacTech68 macrumors 68000

    MacTech68

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Location:
    Australia, Perth
    #14
    Apple does say that the 8600 requires NON-ECC RAM. So I'd count that out. The fact that one notch is out IIRC indicates that it's EDO RAM which is a no go too.

    Just to add confusion, I've seen some 5v DIMMs use 3.3v ICs with a small 3.3v regulator on the DIMM. :rolleyes: :eek:

    I'd still run the TechToolPro RAM test over your final config, and be prepared for voodoo when your CPU upgrade arrives. Sometimes, with a faster CPU, you may need to DE-Interleave the RAM - not desirable but sometimes necessary for a stable machine.

    You've still got at least one DIMM with a very nasty fault, ie, passes quick test but is faulty. I'd be looking to find out which one so you don't inadvertently re-use it at a later date.
     
  15. tevion5 macrumors 68000

    tevion5

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    Location:
    Ireland
    #15
    I must mention the massively positive effect of upgrading the 8600 from 9.1 to 9.2.2. I did so using the Old World Helper software and I can testify that the system is noticeably more stable and nearly 3 times as fast in general operation. It is just so worth it, and causes no problems in the slightest. Not to mention the greatly improved USB storage and FireWire support.

    It is strange that these updates were not supported. I have always suspected it was to make the newer Jobsian macs appear faster than the old beige models or something.
     
  16. bunnspecial thread starter macrumors 603

    bunnspecial

    Joined:
    May 3, 2014
    Location:
    Kentucky
    #16
    I'll have to do the 9.2.2 upgrade. I too have wondered why they were cut off from 9.2.2, especially since they weren't even that old at the time.

    In any case, I didn't do formal benchmarks, but I spent some time last night doing some complex integrals in Mathematica. I found the 8600 with its 200mhz 604E significantly faster than a 233mhz beige G3, and slightly faster than even a 400mhz G3(I tried both a beige and a B&W). The G3, of course, has more in common with the 603E than the 604. My 450mhz G4-upgraded B&W edged it out slightly although I think that was more a function of clock speed as I seriously doubt the version of Mathemica I'm using is even aware of Altivec(much less knows how to use it).

    I have a 9600 200MP sitting in the front seat of my car now. I'm not sure if Mathematica is dual-processor aware, but it will be interesting to compare the results.

    I seem to have misplaced my ADB hardware key for Mac Spartan, which is a chemical modeling software and is can really be math intensive. When I took a computation chemistry class in college, we would often have calculations in PC Spartan took 24 hours running on the Core2Duo Windows boxes in the computer lab. Complex molecules using complex models like Hartree-Fock algorithms could easily take that long. I feel like it would be a good benchmark for really taxing the processor.
     

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