OS X and Windows Vista...some random thoughts...

[belvdr]

Actually, in Windows you never know which applications are running, only which windows are open. This may or may not be the same thing. Perhaps you were unaware of this, but you don't need to use the Windows menu to discover the open windows in OSX, or to change applications focus. Simply click and hold the Dock icon for any given application and a list will pop up. The biggest problem with the Windows tray is the way it uses limited horizontal space. Windows truncates the file names such that if you have too many windows open, figuring out what they are quickly becomes guesswork.

It seems to be usage of either the application name or the icon. If MS were to start using the icons for more than just a symbol next to the name in the Start Menu, the task bar would be cleaned up easily.

On the other hand, with just a few apps open, it's much easier to read the apps that are open than looking at the icons.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Since Exposé doesn't seem to follow any logic as to how it positions the thumbnails, I find getting to a particular window to be a bit of an Easter egg hunt if I have anything more than a few windows open. At least the Windows taskbar groups application windows together.

Exposé should group application windows together regardless of their position onscreen. I shouldn't have to focus on a particular app first and hit F10.

Good point. As it stands now, Exposé is a very good but not a great feature because of the apparently random placement of the shrunken windows. The tiling needs to follow some logic, preferable chosen by the user.

 

[maya]

But isn't that why you would want the apps grouped?

Has anyone tried Project Looking Glass? Here are some screenshots.

That way the GUI looks and handles on that OS, makes it seem even more complicated.

Maybe I am missing something in the translation, however trying to place all functions of a single application on one window seems interesting. However it has to be done right, otherwise it gets complicated.

Widgets do the same thing to a primitive level, in the sense that it flips a widget for options. I can see this more integrated into the future Mac OS X for normal applications.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Don't you mean vertical space rather than horizontal.

No, I meant horizontal. The tray organizes window names horizontally along the bottom of the screen. As I see someone had already pointed out, that real estate runs out pretty quickly, the names get truncated, and you're left to guess what they are.

 

[thirdkind]

Perhaps you were unaware of this, but you don't need to use the Windows menu to discover the open windows in OSX, or to change applications focus. Simply click and hold the Dock icon for any given application and a list will pop up.

I didn't know this. Thanks! Much better.

The biggest problem with the Windows tray is the way it uses limited horizontal space. Windows truncates the file names such that if you have too many windows open, figuring out what they are quickly becomes guesswork.

When it gets really crowded, XP groups taskbar buttons under a single button for each application. Clicking the button provides a menu similar to the Dock menu you just described to me.

 

[maya]

No, I meant horizontal. The tray organizes window names horizontally along the bottom of the screen. As I see someone had already pointed out, that real estate runs out pretty quickly, the names get truncated, and you're left to guess what they are.

Sorry, I was thinking about something else then.

It is a PITA with titles in the taskbar. However that is another half-arsed MS product.

 

[IJ Reilly]

When it gets really crowded, XP groups taskbar buttons under a single button for each application. Clicking the button provides a menu similar to the Dock menu you just described to me.

Well I didn't know that, so we both learned something today.

 

[belvdr]

Well I didn't know that, so we both learned something today.

You run XP and didn't notice this?

 

[ezekielrage_99]

Vista looks prettty but seriously will it work properly from day one???

I am guessing no

 

[Cheese]

UNtil today, I had uptime in the hundreds. The poweer went out because of a bad storm. I have not seen enough stability on anything MS to say it is "Rock Solid". I am forced to use Windoze at work, they run NT and XP Pro. Speed wise, my DV400 is on par and it is running 10.2 with 320 mb RAM, as opposed to a P4 3.2g with 512mb RAM. I think I got the iMac G3 in 2001, and it opens apps, (99% native) and works with as much or more positive impact to my productivity than the Windows "Clogger" at work. I know little to nothing of Vista, and I would love to keep it that way. I intend to be a Mac-centric support person, in hopes that a large company with the gumption to think different will see that I can offer them another reason to switch for the better. It's not about me. I hope that other future IT professionals will also see merit in cross-training, and being well versed in all things Apple. Just my myopic view on the subject.

 

[IJ Reilly]

You run XP and didn't notice this?

I suppose I didn't notice. I don't run a lot of things at one time on my XP box. It's used mainly for games.

 

[Project]

But isn't that why you would want the apps grouped?

Has anyone tried Project Looking Glass? Here are some screenshots.

Thats why I specifically said BEFORE the apps get grouped. They dont group until theres not enough space on the Task Bar...and if you have say 4 Word documents open, the title is truncated and it can often be guess work when trying to figure out which Window you want.

And to the other poster, I would say Expose is great already. But giving options as to how the windows tile would make it even better.

 

[Plymouthbreezer]

Oh. My. God.

I just read the entire thread, and here's my thoughts.

I've been using Macs my entire life, so naturally, I know how to make them work for me how I want them to. My experiences with PCs have never been good. Windows (not even as much as 95/98, as I actually seemed to have some luck with those versions of Windows) XP has never worked for me. Ever. Any time I've used a PC, it's slow, unresponsive, windows minimize but don't come back up, crash!, apps freeze, something won't print, I click shutdown and it doesn't shut down, I click login, and it doesn't log in, etc.

Now I don't hate PCs (nor own one myself). A friend of mine (competent PC user) has a some good machines. He has a Sony box running Fedora, and a high-end HP running Media Center. Now both computers are fast when they need to be, and do all the good stuff just fine. Cept when the highend HP Windows machine decides it doesn't want to work. I can't tell you how many times he's had to reinstall, reformat the computer. Now the Fedora machine? Never. Goes to show you that now all PCs are bad, just a substandard OS named Windows.

I'm open to learning Windows. I truly wish Windows would just work for me. I try. Over the past week, I've set up four iPods, all on Windows machines. One I set up to a big and mighty HP workstation running XP Pro, and I actually was hoping that all would go well. But then, I plug in the iPod, and lovely XP freezes. Restart. Finally works. I've never seen a Windows machine with an uptime of more then a day it seems.

...Speaking of uptime, I'm at 40 days, 5 hours on my G4.

My point is, I don't hate PCs. I just think Windows sucks. Now I know that tons of people have had good experiences with Windows, and will continue to do so. I think to blindly hate Windows is wrong (same goes for people who "just hate" Apple and OS X), but I've given it a shot, and it never ends well. I'd actually be willing to get a Windows PC to give it an even more honest try. But with Macs doing everything I need them to do, and doing it faster, more fluently, without the need for anti spyware/virus protection, I see it as the smart and logical choice. To me, using a computer shouldn't have to be frustrating, and should be as intuitive as possible, and OS X does that for me. If for other, Windows does the same, awesome! It's all personal preference, and totally not worth arguing over. A PC loving friend of mine got me into a Mac vs. PC debate, which lasted three hours over AIM. In the end, we both said, "Holy hell, what did we even accomplish!?" Nothing, and we both laughed.

 

[Randall]

But with Macs doing everything I need them to do, and doing it faster, more fluently, without the need for anti spyware/virus protection, I see it as the smart and logical choice.

I agree, but how much longer do you think that Mac will go without viruses and spyware, given the fact that their market share is growing rapidly, and will only continue to do so? There are a small percentage of viruses for Linux even. It's just a matter of time before somebody ruins it for all of us. Granted, the security on OS X is far better then Windows, but how much longer can the virus-free good times last?

 

[jeffy.dee-lux]

couple points:
1) try running 10.4 on a 5-6 year old mac, slower than molassas in winter.
2) speaking of bloat, you mean 10.4 or the upcoming 10.5 isn't bloated?
3) we'll see when 10.5 comes out but it will probably not run well except on the newest, fastest mac boxes
4) apple has joined the x86 consortium...

i'm not reading the whole damn thread, and i'm sure somebody else already jumped on this, but i just gotta add my voice. I just recently got 10.4 for my 2001 G3 iMac, 500mhz and it runs plenty smooth. I've been using my girlfriend's brand new power book a lot lately, so I know how fast Panther can be on a more recent machine, and I can tell you, this soon to be (2 days) 5 year old computer is chugging along just fine. Obviously its not as quick as the G4, but it could hardly be called slow, let alone, molasses in winter, though i do like that thought... molasses is good.

I'm just very proud of how well this old machine is supported. Meanwhile, what are the system requirements for Vista? Props to apple!

 

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

My Thoughts on Vista

Alright, so earlier today I installed Vista...here are my thoughts

First of all, I entered the wrong code in during the installation process - therefore, I was stuck with Longhorn Server rather than the Client edition. There was no 'undo' opportunity throughout the entire process, so I had to wait another 2 hours before I could even reinstall Vista Client edition.

The installation process, although Microsoft claims that it will take less than 15 minutes in the end, was painfully long. My favorite part was when the computer notified me that "Installation is taking longer than expected, but it should finish soon" - that quote was on my computer for 45 minutes...soon my butt.

The installation process certainly is a lot nicer than XP's - which I've reinstalled quite a bit. It even incorporates glass, which was nice. I've never had to install an Apple OS, so I can't really compare, can I?

The drivers are going to be a problem. I don't care that it's only in a CTP edition, but when my 500 dollar graphics card can't even display Aero glass correctly, I'd be worried. The requirements to display 'transparent windows' are going to be through the roof. It's annoying, really, because the Aero Express theme is ugly. Really ugly. Unbelievably ugly. The start menu, however, is a dramatic improvement - even with Aero Express enabled, it looked quite decent compared to its XP counterpart.

FYI - I heard a lot of complaints about the orb shaped start menu, and how it doesn't go to the corner of the screen. Fortunately, Microsoft realized how dumb this would be and, although they kept the orb shaped button, allow the start menu to open even if you do click on the farthest corner of the screen (i.e. the black part of the start menu in the corner)

Now don't get me wrong - I'm a huge MS fan and Apple fan (don't give me crud for it...please!) - however, the control panel is one thing that Microsoft needs to copy from Apple. Look at System Preferences - everything can be accessed within one window, and if something is illogically placed, you can quickly find it with its convenient search bar (which I've used many a time, being a Windows switcher!) Control Panel in XP is...ok. Control Panel in Vista is...the forbidden forest of Hogwarts? I don't understand it. I couldn't even find system! COULD NOT EVEN FIND SYSTEM! That's the only folder I really care about in Control Panel anyway! eesh.

Mac OS X updates Mail with every OS update - Windows Mail is a new client, although it is based off of Outlook (which is a strong email client). I prefer mail, although it is nice to have a separate Mail client in Vista.

iCal and Windows Calendar are the same in functionality (with iCal being a bit more visually attractive)

Microsoft may have ruined Media Center by incorporating it in every OS version - I wonder if Apple will do the same...Front Row isn't nearly as bloated as Media Center is. Hopefully, MS will allow you to delete a number of buttons in Media Center (disable them, anyway) to clean up its interface.

 

[AvSRoCkCO1067]

continued...my review

The Sidebar is still disabled in build 5270, although I see it as being Microsoft's answer to Dashboard. I'm one who prefers Dashboard, being that I hardly ever use small programs and, if I do, I can simply push a button and access it whenever I need to. The sidebar confuses me - at one point, applications were 'attached' to the sidebar. They could not be moved off the sidebar. Now, you can drag them anywhere you want on your desktop - what, I ask, is the point of having a large black rectangle on the side of your screen if you don't have to attach anything to it?

Windows Defender is amazing. It really incorporates EVERYTHING into one, extremely solid application. Spyware protection, automatic updates, phishing filters...you name it. I loved it.

Internet Explorer - it's not Safari. I use Opera (which can be quite bloated if you don't remove some of it's buttons / toolbars) and Safari, and I like both of them. Internet Explorer remains bloated, however, although it does a decent job incorporating tabs. Too bad it's like 2 years behind Safari - even its RSS reader isn't as pretty...hehe....

The icons in Windows Vista are a beauty - just like we've come to love in Mac OS X. They definately got them right in Vista - although not all of them have been converted to high quality files, they eventually will be, and you'll have quite a nice desktop / folder icons to look at.

Lets see....I think that's it. I never tested the search in Vista (although I'm glad you can disable the search menu in the start menu - it makes things messy) - to be honest, I really hope they add a toolbar for the start menu bar that allows you to search without accessing the start menu. Metadata, as many have previously said, is magnificently integrated into the OS.

My favorite thing about Vista - although its admittedly useless - is its folders. You can see the icons (or best, previews!) of objects within each folder. So I can see word documents in my documents folder, or actual photos in my photos folder, etc. Flip 3D is pretty, and a needed competitor to Expose - but again, although you can continue to watch movies while flipping through applications, it's not really necessary. Expose is supreme, in that with the click of one button you have access to ALL your programs. You don't need to keep pushing buttons to switch through them.

Finally, although I didn't get to test it out, apparently Windows Movie Maker is becoming Windows Movie Maker HD - you know, like iMovie HD. Again, 3 years late. We'll see what it has to offer.

If anyone has any questions, I'd love to answer them - remember, Vista was EXTREMELY slow on my 2.6 Ghz P4 with 128 mg of vram. Unbearably slow. So slow that I had to reload XP in about an hour because I couldn't take it. Therefore, I didn't get to test the OS as much as I would've liked...

Ciao!

 

[thirdkind]

Oh. My. God. [etc.]

What do you Mac guys do to your PCs?

The XP-based PCs I build run for months on end without a reboot. I built my wife's PC this past summer, and it only reboots (by itself) when an update requires it. I just asked her and she says she never restarts the thing and she's never had a problem with it.

I see no fewer Mac problem reports on this forum than I see Windows problem reports on PC forums. I'll concede that virii and spyware are really only a concern in the Windows world, but installing good antivirus software, using Firefox, and running Windows Update automatically should and does take care of most issues.

Once you address these Windows realities, I see no difference between the frequency of technical difficulties between Macs and PCs. If OS X were as stable and lovely as many claim, this forum would have far fewer posts than it does. Every other (meaningful) post in the 10.4.3 update topic was "Oh teh noes! My xxxx stopped working! Going back to 10.4.2."

My Firewire/USB PCI card from Adaptec, which works flawlessly otherwise, somehow prevents my Power Mac from waking up. I'd gladly remove it, but Apple wasn't so generous in their supply of USB and Firewire ports on my $3000 tower

Over the past week, I've set up four iPods, all on Windows machines. One I set up to a big and mighty HP workstation running XP Pro, and I actually was hoping that all would go well. But then, I plug in the iPod, and lovely XP freezes. Restart. Finally works.

Why are you so sure this is a Windows problem? It's Apple's job to write the software and drivers. If it doesn't work the way it should, maybe you should talk to them.

UNtil today, I had uptime in the hundreds. The poweer went out because of a bad storm. I have not seen enough stability on anything MS to say it is "Rock Solid". I am forced to use Windoze at work, they run NT and XP Pro. Speed wise, my DV400 is on par and it is running 10.2 with 320 mb RAM, as opposed to a P4 3.2g with 512mb RAM. I think I got the iMac G3 in 2001, and it opens apps, (99% native) and works with as much or more positive impact to my productivity than the Windows "Clogger" at work.

Classic example of a Mac user who hates Windows because his work PC is a piece of garbage. As I said earlier, I have a P4 2.6 with a gig of RAM that I built 3 years ago, and its overall response is faster than the dual 2.5 Power Mac I just bought. Your work PC should FLY based on the specs you provided. If it's slower than a DV400, I know for a fact that it's gummed up with corporate bloatware or horribly misconfigured--or both.

And please guys, stop quoting your Mac uptime unless you're running a heavily accessed web server or encoding HD all day. A couple Mail and Safari windows aren't worth bragging about.

I still like my Mac, despite its faults

 

[IJ Reilly]

Alright, so earlier today I installed Vista...here are my thoughts.

[snip]

A very nice review, thank you for your effort in bringing us this detailed Vista preview!

I'll be interested to see how much performance improves with the final release version. As we all should remember, the early versions of OSX were pretty pokey. It took Apple a couple of iterations to get the code optimized sufficiently such that OSX ran reasonably well on older hardware.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Why are you so sure this is a Windows problem? It's Apple's job to write the software and drivers. If it doesn't work the way it should, maybe you should talk to them.

I'm going to take a swing at this. I don't think Apple has much control over low-level functions, like what happens when you plug in a FireWire or USB device.

 

[thirdkind]

I'm going to take a swing at this. I don't think Apple has much control over low-level functions, like what happens when you plug in a FireWire or USB device.

Windows attempts to identify the device and install its own drivers. If it can't, it starts the driver installation wizard (or freezes, in this case).

XP locking up could have any one of a thousand causes related or not related to Windows itself.

I guess what I'm trying to stress is that we all have our little anecdotes regarding Mac/PC problems, and if they're reviewed collectively, I bet you'd find OS X really isn't any more or less buggy than XP. Introduce virii and spyware, yeah, Windows loses. But these problems can be prevented with some very simple adjustments.

 

[aristobrat]

I'll be interested to see how much performance improves with the final release version.

And how much additional functionality they add.

MS did a Vista dog 'n pony "Executive Briefing" for the corp I work for earlier this year and went out of their way to repeatedly mention that the earlier betas wouldn't have many of the key features nor be optimized (performance-wise) until later betas.

I guess only time will tell.

 

[belvdr]

I suppose I didn't notice. I don't run a lot of things at one time on my XP box. It's used mainly for games.

He he... me too.. just picking on you. I only use XP for Flight Simulator 2004.

 

[IJ Reilly]

Windows attempts to identify the device and install its own drivers. If it can't, it starts the driver installation wizard (or freezes, in this case).

XP locking up could have any one of a thousand causes related or not related to Windows itself.

I guess what I'm trying to stress is that we all have our little anecdotes regarding Mac/PC problems, and if they're reviewed collectively, I bet you'd find OS X really isn't any more or less buggy than XP. Introduce virii and spyware, yeah, Windows loses. But these problems can be prevented with some very simple adjustments.

If they were so simple... Honestly, I think that some of the things we more technically savvy people find to be simple are mind-bogglingly complex to many others. The proof of what I am arguing is, as they say, in the pudding.

No doubt OSX has its share of bugs. I don't know how you do a census of such things, but I do know that bugs have to be rated more on how they impact the user than in their shear numbers. I'd rather use an OS that has 100 small unimportant bugs than an OS with one, fatal flaw.

 

[IJ Reilly]

He he... me too.. just picking on you.

I got that.

Don't pick it, it will never heal.