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zephead said:
All those anti-mac people saying "See? Apple isn't invulnerable. Get Windows." should just shove it. It can be likened to Microsoft being covered in mud and then making a big deal about Apple having a little smudge on itself. :rolleyes:
Couldn't have said it better myself :)



And what's with this? Yet another thread where I've read the same conversation on several pages! Do people not read? DAMNIT! :mad:
 
I dont see how this is any better than a person releasing a virus. This guy should be prosecuted and I hope apple does so. not everyone is going to upgrade to 10.4.7 unless it does it for them, for those few people still on dialup may not have much of an option. I hope they put this pos in jail.
 
Lollypop said:
If security companies are starting to write proof-of-concept viruses for mac os I personally think its a good idea, Apple has been hiding behind the Unix supperiour security bit for to long!

Security company writes vulnerability attack , informs apple about it, release it out in the wild 2 months later. That way Apple has to react, security companies can create security products and make money by selling security products, we have a secure operating system... I dont see a down side.


No that is a real bad idea. Windows sucks ass because half your CPU cycles are taken by the AV software checking every god damn file for anything that resembles the 4 million virus definitions it has stored on the machine.

In my opinion, OS X does not need AV software. Apple should actually change the installation process to include the option to make a non-admin user which further increases security. I do it because it makes the machine a lot safer and also prevents you from messing up the OS by accident. Not that I need it; I just do it because my day to day user does not need admin rights.

-mark
 
A few observations

This is a proof of concept that was due a while ago. Those saying "What's the point? To prove Mac OS X isn't invulnerable? Duh, we knew that!" forget that, actually, a large portion of the Mac community have been arguing for the longest time that the Mac pretty much is, either by design or "just is", virus free. This "message" is not to those of you saying "Well of course it's not invulnerable!", it's to those who insist on giving the opposite impression.

That said, I still don't think anyone's going to take security on the Mac that seriously until a major strike occurs. That will not happen for a while because the Mac's low penetration works against most virusses - that is, a virus needs a high probability of it hitting infectable computers in order for it to spread, and while Mac OS X languishes around the 2.5% mark, that's built-in security.

There are large holes in Mac OS X waiting to be exploited. Many of them are social - most people's primary accounts are admin accounts, with any programs they run able to patch anything in /Applications without prompting for passwords, and it's easy to get a dialog to appear that looks like Software Update asking for your root password. Seriously, if I wasn't worried about the potential for lawsuits, I'd do it, just to prove the point (I'm not talking about writing a malicious program, just a .app that gets you to enter your password in the way I'm describing) Mac OS X isn't perfect, it's not even, by design, more secure than Windows NT/2000/XP when both operating systems are correctly set up. Windows NT/2000/XP end up being less secure through combinations of higher marketshare, and poorer default user-land security, but there are tools in NT/2000/XP that, were users using them properly, would make the OS very difficult indeed to get in to.

On the flip side, I'd say Apple's to be congratulated in trying to make sure the userland is relatively secure, keeping up with updates (even in the absense of live exploits) and making the Software Update process relatively painless and a positive experience for most users.

The important thing, for everyone, is to keep on their guard, and ignore the small but vocal band of advocates who keep claiming "Windows suxxxxs! It has tons of viri, you can't get viriii on Mac OS X, it's based on Unix!!!" You're probably ignoring them anyway, otherwise you wouldn't be posting the sarcastic comments about OS X being invulnerable, but...
 
cwedl said:
I think thats cool he found the 'hole' in apples software, but why release it, maybe get someone else like cnet labs or something to verify it and then delete it.

I think releasing the exploit is a good thing, though in this case I think it was released far too quickly. People who report vulnerabilities tend to behave responsibly and give the vendor (in this case, Apple) time to patch the software.

But, once patched, it's good that this information comes into the public domain, so users can know, rather than guesstimate, how secure their systems really are and how important it is to install these security updates. It's far better than living in ignorance, and keeping your fingers crossed that crackers are too.
 
I don't mind people testing OSX for problems. I don't even mind posting it to the web if they have given the company time to respond (and not just one email).

What I hate is how this will be picked up as being equivalent to a major virus on windows. They all de-emphasize the importance of the LOCAL aspect. So yes, luanchd exploits can be very bad - but when you see some guy standing at your computer that you don't know, greet him/her with your shotgun or a call to the police. Of course I am going to the extreme but I feel that is comparable to what the window pundits will do.

Oh, wait.... I just discovered an even bigger local exploit....

.......WARNING......
OS X is found to be volunerable for versions 10.0 - 10.4.7. A local exploit has recently been discovered which could create havoc for a mac OSX machine. The exploit is so powerful it can earse an entire hard drive, destroying all of your data. It can also allow the local intruder to gain access to all of your private information via Apple's Keychain utility - a program that stores your user name and password to internet sites like those used for banking and credit cards. The exploit is so powerful that once discovered it can even be used remotely. Thus, it is most important you do not tell anyone your administrator password to your mac OSX machine. If someone were to have your password, they would be able to totally control your computer. Be ware! It is felt for the safety of all involved using OSX you should thus switch to windows.
Sincerely, your favorite virus company and Bill Gates.
 
Virus

Security company writes vulnerability attack , informs apple about it, release it out in the wild 2 months later. That way Apple has to react, security companies can create security products and make money by selling security products, we have a secure operating system... I dont see a down side.

Thanks...

Amid all the Drama I was starting to think folks just don't get it...

All pretty standard stuff in the PC world. Coming soon to a Mac near you!
 
Of course people will try to find the exploits in OS X, particularly after Apple announces to the world that there are NO viruses for Mac. Will this continue? Probably. But I'd take an OS that fixes security vulnerabilities BEFORE they are exploited over an OS that waits several months to release a security patch for a well known problem.
 
thestaton said:
I dont see how this is any better than a person releasing a virus. This guy should be prosecuted and I hope apple does so. not everyone is going to upgrade to 10.4.7 unless it does it for them, for those few people still on dialup may not have much of an option. I hope they put this pos in jail.

Personally, I think this release is a good thing - people should not be prosecuted for this. It encourges the developers to get off their arses and fix the security hole.
 
avkills said:
No that is a real bad idea. Windows sucks ass because half your CPU cycles are taken by the AV software checking every god damn file for anything that resembles the 4 million virus definitions it has stored on the machine.

In my opinion, OS X does not need AV software. Apple should actually change the installation process to include the option to make a non-admin user which further increases security. I do it because it makes the machine a lot safer and also prevents you from messing up the OS by accident. Not that I need it; I just do it because my day to day user does not need admin rights.

-mark

1.) What version of Windows, and what virus software, on what machine slows down like that? Your data may be old on that front. NAV used to slow machines down in the Windows 98/ME/2000 days, but not today.

2.) Creating a non-admin user will protect the OS and settings, but not your data from malicious code

3.) If you believe OS X doesn't need virus software, well, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's a very naive and uneducated one. If you interact in a working environment with Windows users you can still spread a virus with a Mac even if the Mac itself is immune. Certainly doesn't make you popular in the office. If you don't interact with Windows users, sharing files, then there is still the risk of exploits based on services you run on your system, or malicious code embedded in applications that could compromise your machine. You are NOT immune from harm just because you use a Mac. You are LESS immune, but not impervious by any means.
 
peharri,

I agree with your premise, but would like to rebut a couple of points you made that aren't entirely accurate based on the OS differences between Windows and Mac OS X.

peharri said:
I still don't think anyone's going to take security on the Mac that seriously until a major strike occurs. That will not happen for a while because the Mac's low penetration works against most virusses - that is, a virus needs a high probability of it hitting infectable computers in order for it to spread, and while Mac OS X languishes around the 2.5% mark, that's built-in security.

Your principle points are correct, i.e., market share and numbers being low makes the Mac a low priority target. However, it really depends on the intent of the attack. If someone creating malicious code for the Mac has the sole intent of making the lives of Mac users miserable by deleting all their files in the ~/Documents folder, well, that small market share isn't going to mean diddly to them. They're just angry, or bored, and want to cause harm.

peharri said:
Mac OS X isn't perfect, it's not even, by design, more secure than Windows NT/2000/XP when both operating systems are correctly set up. Windows NT/2000/XP end up being less secure through combinations of higher marketshare, and poorer default user-land security, but there are tools in NT/2000/XP that, were users using them properly, would make the OS very difficult indeed to get in to.

That's not entirely true. Mac OS X is, by design, more secure at the network layer than Windows. Apple chose the BSD network layer BECAUSE of its superior security record, and not performance for sure.

I need to point out "correctly set up" is a very relative statement. There are certain configurations that are insecure by nature because of the amount of utility needed by the user. Proper, or "correct", security practices go beyond the physical and software configuration of any machine. They involve an active participant to audit the machine based on the services running, and this includes user intervention in the form of manual software updates.

Windows "[ends] up being less secure through combinations" of poor programming practices and a legacy code base that is tens of millions of lines long, coupled with inadequate, system-level checks and balances that allow random processes to edit any file at will; including the registry. Mac OS X has, at least, a password mechanism for verifying and confirming software installs that are writing to private system directories. Windows does not do this, at all, ever! That's a very DUMB thing and has nothing to do with the user or his/her practices. It has to do with a fundamental design flaw in the Windows system architecture. Period. No code should be able to write to a system directory without admin/superuser approval. It's a check on malicious code that Microsoft STILL fails to address.

Beyond those items, I'm totally with you. Mac OS X users need to be less dismissive of exploits without at least educating themselves as to what they do and how they do it. Although, this particular exploit seems to have no facts to back it up. I'm not sure where this mysterious Symantec bulletin is, nor have I been able to find any sources, beyond the CNet article, to verify this supposed exploit even exists. I think CNet has gone to the dogs. I, for one, have pretty much given CNet the finger. There's nothing they say that seems worth reading these days. It's either uneducated opinion, or simply bogus FUD.

macnews said:
.......WARNING......
OS X is found to be volunerable for versions 10.0 - 10.4.7. A local exploit has recently been discovered which could create havoc for a mac OSX machine. The exploit is so powerful it can earse an entire hard drive, destroying all of your data. It can also allow the local intruder to gain access to all of your private information via Apple's Keychain utility - a program that stores your user name and password to internet sites like those used for banking and credit cards. The exploit is so powerful that once discovered it can even be used remotely.

LOL...you mean the install CD/DVD which will let you reset the password for any user and then you have COMPLETE control over the machine? That's an exploit that people seem to forget about, and is probably the greatest "local" threat to Mac OS X. Takes less than three minutes to implement and can be totally transparent to the user if you use the 'root' user as the object for the password change. I've done this just to mess with people. It's a lot easier than most might think to do and is the single greatest threat to Mac OS X security given there is no boot password for the Mac BIOS to prevent it.
 
greenmonsterman said:
another proof of concept. This isn't cool. Eventually someone will release one of these things in a less than sanitary manner.
It's nice to know Symantec is exploring the minute little holes that may exist in OSX and then publishing them to give their business on Mac a boost.
 
dagger01 said:
1.) What version of Windows, and what virus software, on what machine slows down like that? Your data may be old on that front. NAV used to slow machines down in the Windows 98/ME/2000 days, but not today.

2.) Creating a non-admin user will protect the OS and settings, but not your data from malicious code

3.) If you believe OS X doesn't need virus software, well, you're entitled to your opinion, but it's a very naive and uneducated one. If you interact in a working environment with Windows users you can still spread a virus with a Mac even if the Mac itself is immune. Certainly doesn't make you popular in the office. If you don't interact with Windows users, sharing files, then there is still the risk of exploits based on services you run on your system, or malicious code embedded in applications that could compromise your machine. You are NOT immune from harm just because you use a Mac. You are LESS immune, but not impervious by any means.

I've seen PowerPoint (Office 2003) on Windows (XP SP 2) come to a crawl scanning a file for malicious code. I do work in a Windows environment; as I am the only Mac user (video production) and I have yet to spread any virus. Needless to say, AV software robs CPU cycles.

I know the Mac is not immune, but for all practical purposes getting a virus on a Mac is something that would require user interaction in some way. It is very hard to do something in OS X that changes system files without user participation. As far as harming user files; yes that is easier, but I think you would still need the user to actually do something like double click a file or something.

-mark
 
macnews said:
.......WARNING......
OS X is found to be volunerable for versions 10.0 - 10.4.7. A local exploit has recently been discovered which could create havoc for a mac OSX machine. The exploit is so powerful it can earse an entire hard drive, destroying all of your data. It can also allow the local intruder to gain access to all of your private information via Apple's Keychain utility - a program that stores your user name and password to internet sites like those used for banking and credit cards. The exploit is so powerful that once discovered it can even be used remotely. Thus, it is most important you do not tell anyone your administrator password to your mac OSX machine. If someone were to have your password, they would be able to totally control your computer. Be ware! It is felt for the safety of all involved using OSX you should thus switch to windows.
Sincerely, your favorite virus company and Bill Gates.
And we're supposed to believe them that Window's won't do that? I'd totally like to see McAfee and Bill Gates make asses out of themselves by saying that. :D
 
macnews said:
What I hate is how this will be picked up as being equivalent to a major virus on windows.
Dog bites man, not news. Man bites dog, news. Nature of the machine. Everybody knows Windows sucks. :)
 
dagger01 said:
LOL...you mean the install CD/DVD which will let you reset the password for any user and then you have COMPLETE control over the machine? That's an exploit that people seem to forget about, and is probably the greatest "local" threat to Mac OS X. Takes less than three minutes to implement and can be totally transparent to the user if you use the 'root' user as the object for the password change. I've done this just to mess with people. It's a lot easier than most might think to do and is the single greatest threat to Mac OS X security given there is no boot password for the Mac BIOS to prevent it.

I agree, the method you mentioned (which I have also used) is a major vulnaralbility. However, it requires someone to actually be in front of the actual computer. 99% of computer virus or hacks are done remotely. From just a simplicity aspect, no one is going to take the time (let alone be phisically able) to infect MILLIONS of computer with a virus by using a local exploit. Dangerous and at least should be addressed - agree 100% with you. But the bigger concerns are those that come over the internet and are done remote, not local - that was my point. We all fear the burglar that can come in our house. The internet has introduce burglars who never need to even be in the same country. Those are the ones I worry about most because they tend to be less noticable.
 
McDave said:
What! You mean there's a difference? :eek:

I realize there was some semblance of sarcasm in your entire post, but yes there is a large amount of difference between the two. Even still, it's like choosing the lesser of two evils.

I mean, which is worse here; this attack code or the dialog box spoofing (which has been known for almost three years)? Neither are running rampant in the wild for various reasons, but that doesn't make them any less of a security threat.

I feel more secure knowing that this attack code has been patched than having an exploit -- without a patch -- published and potentially in the wild.
 
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