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Not being familiar with Objective-C, could you help me understand this? Offsets within a structure (is a container a structure) might be smaller than 64-bit depending on the size of the structure, but pointers to other structures (containers) would still have to be 64-bits - no?


In objective c you tend not to use as many pointers as you do in c and c++. Instead you are usually using references. These are objects that contain (or from which can be derived) the location of objects in the virtual address space. not true pointers. This also enables tricks like reference counting, etc. But if you know you aren't going to need more than 2^32 objects of a particular class, the references need not be more than 32-bit. I can't remember but I assume the stuff already in cocoa generally uses 64-bit refs, though.
 
How can you claim that bloat and QA issues with PPC streams are too expensive for Apple to deal with, but then turn around and claim that they're non-existent for x86 streams?

Now where did I claim that ? :confused:

This whole sub-thread started when someone claimed Universal Binaries were going to disappear. I'm saying they aren't. You went off on a tangent about x86...

Of course there's added Q&A to support both 32 bit and 64 bit architectures. The overhead might not be the same as supporting PPC (which features both 32 bit and 64 bit modes you know...). However, I'm just saying right now, it doesn't make sense to drop 32 bit x86 as a supported architecture. One big reason : Carbon. Until they deprecate it fully and remove it, they can't remove 32 bit code.

And for that to happen, they'd have to port their entire software library over. Apple still has many of their own software packages that aren't fully Cocoa.
 
Now where did I claim that ? :confused:

This whole sub-thread started when someone claimed Universal Binaries were going to disappear. I'm saying they aren't. You went off on a tangent about x86...

That someone was me, and it actually was you that started the x86 tangent

Why would it ? Universal binaries don't actually use anything extra on the system and allow a graceful way to ship multi-architecture binaries.

You know, x86 and x86_64 versions of applications inside 1 binary. Universal binaries are here to stay.

To clarify, I was discussing the ability to include PowerPC instructions in Universal Binaries for future versions of XCode. I could have included that in my post, however I figured it was clear considering the topic of this thread is also PowerPC related.
 
That someone was me, and it actually was you that started the x86 tangent

I don't see that tangeant. I was simply pointing out that Universal Binaries meant much more than PPC + Intel code and thus there was no reason to make them go away.

To clarify, I was discussing the ability to include PowerPC instructions in Universal Binaries for future versions of XCode. I could have included that in my post, however I figured it was clear considering the topic of this thread is also PowerPC related.

Well, Universal binaries are much more than just a PPC thing, so no it wasn't clear obviously.

Though there's no denying compiling PPC code with XCode will disappear and with the Rosetta thing, it will be sooner rather than later.
 
I don't see that tangeant. I was simply pointing out that Universal Binaries meant much more than PPC + Intel code and thus there was no reason to make them go away.

My point is, yours was the first post that mentioned x86 and x86_64 in the same post. Your reply to my post, was what AidenShaw took issue to for some reason, and from there forward you two started your most recent debate.

Well, Universal binaries are much more than just a PPC thing, so no it wasn't clear obviously.

Though there's no denying compiling PPC code with XCode will disappear and with the Rosetta thing, it will be sooner rather than later.

Well we have a differing opinion on what we perceive as being obvious, that much is clear. If it wasn't clear that I was discussing the PowerPC compiling portion of XCode, than I apologize.

Regardless, it seems we are both in agreement on your last paragraph.
 
I run a small research lab and some of the software we use is old, proprietary and irreplaceable. If I by a new computer for the lab after Lion comes out that means this old software won't run anymore. Why not have the option to install Rosetta?
 
I run a small research lab and some of the software we use is old, proprietary and irreplaceable. If I by a new computer for the lab after Lion comes out that means this old software won't run anymore. Why not have the option to install Rosetta?

In 1985 I realized if I bought a new car I wouldn't have the option to keep using my 8-track tape collection. Some of those recordings weren't available on 8-track.

In 1996 I realized if I bought a new car I wouldn't have the option to keep using my cassettes in the car. Some of those recordings weren't available on cassette.

This is life.
 
I run a small research lab and some of the software we use is old, proprietary and irreplaceable. If I by a new computer for the lab after Lion comes out that means this old software won't run anymore. Why not have the option to install Rosetta?

In 1985 I realized if I bought a new car I wouldn't have the option to keep using my 8-track tape collection. Some of those recordings weren't available on 8-track.

In 1996 I realized if I bought a new car I wouldn't have the option to keep using my cassettes in the car. Some of those recordings weren't available on cassette.

This is life.
Yeah, in this analogy you just have to hope you never have your car totalled (or damaged to a point where it wont work).

Your old app will be unaffected on an old system. Nothing to worry about.
 
I run a small research lab and some of the software we use is old, proprietary and irreplaceable. If I by a new computer for the lab after Lion comes out that means this old software won't run anymore. Why not have the option to install Rosetta?

You have to understand that Apple is a small company that simply does not have the manpower nor the funds to make this rarely used Rosetta software work on Lion.

</sarcasm>

Your best bet is to keep an older machine and pray it doesn't break, or use something like SheepShaver.

In 1985 I realized if I bought a new car I wouldn't have the option to keep using my 8-track tape collection. Some of those recordings weren't available on 8-track.

In 1996 I realized if I bought a new car I wouldn't have the option to keep using my cassettes in the car. Some of those recordings weren't available on cassette.

This is life.

What are you talking about? Almost every car can be fitted with an after-market (or should it be before market?) "stereo". If you want to fit an old tape player in your 2011 Porsche—but still enjoy Porsche Doppelkupplung and VarioCam Plus—you can!
 
What are you talking about? Almost every car can be fitted with an after-market (or should it be before market?) "stereo". If you want to fit an old tape player in your 2011 Porsche—but still enjoy Porsche Doppelkupplung and VarioCam Plus—you can!

And if you want to pull the boot drive out of your old mac and use it to dual boot your new mac, you can do that too. So?
 
bite me

The switch to intel has been going on since 2005.

I hate to break it to some people but its probably time to upgrade.

I am not going to subscribe to this ridiculous theory that you have to upgrade your hardware/OS to the dictates of the vendor and their needs for profit. A computer is a major financial obligation. For 3,000 dollars, you should be able to get a decade of use.

Not every software new release is an upgrade. Sometimes the product actually gets worse.

One the reasons why Windows still dominates the business world is because they have learned the hard way that they must have backward compatibility. Rosetta offers that. Not everyone wants to buy not only an OS upgrades but multiple software upgrades especially when you get into Adobe.

Rosetta will have to be supported in Lion or forget it. They will pay for it.
 
I am not going to subscribe to this ridiculous theory that you have to upgrade your hardware/OS to the dictates of the vendor and their needs for profit. A computer is a major financial obligation. For 3,000 dollars, you should be able to get a decade of use.

Not every software new release is an upgrade. Sometimes the product actually gets worse.

One the reasons why Windows still dominates the business world is because they have learned the hard way that they must have backward compatibility. Rosetta offers that. Not everyone wants to buy not only an OS upgrades but multiple software upgrades especially when you get into Adobe.

Rosetta will have to be supported in Lion or forget it. They will pay for it.

Wanna bet?
 
I am not going to subscribe to this ridiculous theory that you have to upgrade your hardware/OS to the dictates of the vendor and their needs for profit. A computer is a major financial obligation. For 3,000 dollars, you should be able to get a decade of use.

Not every software new release is an upgrade. Sometimes the product actually gets worse.

One the reasons why Windows still dominates the business world is because they have learned the hard way that they must have backward compatibility. Rosetta offers that. Not everyone wants to buy not only an OS upgrades but multiple software upgrades especially when you get into Adobe.

Rosetta will have to be supported in Lion or forget it. They will pay for it.

Just stay with Snow Leopard. It's not a big deal.
 
Just stay with Snow Leopard. It's not a big deal.

And how long will Snow Leopard continue to be supported with software/security updates?

Just because it's not a big deal for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.
 
And how long will Snow Leopard continue to be supported with software/security updates?

Just because it's not a big deal for you doesn't mean it's the same for everyone else.

You're worried about support and security updates, but you're complaining about not being able to use software that hasn't been updated since 2005 or earlier? Yeah, cause that makes perfect sense...

jW
 
You're worried about support and security updates, but you're complaining about not being able to use software that hasn't been updated since 2005 or earlier? Yeah, cause that makes perfect sense...

jW

Shush, don't hit them with logic. ;)

Actually, it does make a lot of sense (just the reverse of the 'logic' you two seem to be trying to impart). Being able to use older software that won't be updated for various reasons is a boon. Not getting security updates is a loss as would be the inability to run newer software that will eventually require Lion as a minimum to run. Being forced to choose between being able to run older software and newer software benefits no one and can potentially hurt everyone. Thus, the two are mutually exclusive and opposites of one another. But then I wouldn't expect the usual suspects on here to recognize that but instead to try and redirect attention to some kind of pointless "new and old" comparison as if that somehow makes them opposite of each other rather than a win/loss comparison for the user's sake. :rolleyes:
 
Well the mess that is the Windows codebase has indeed shown that supporting decades-old software and hardware does indeed hurt everyone...
 
Actually, it does make a lot of sense (just the reverse of the 'logic' you two seem to be trying to impart). Being able to use older software that won't be updated for various reasons is a boon.

Got it. Old software is good.

Not getting security updates is a loss as would be the inability to run newer software that will eventually require Lion as a minimum to run.

Got it. New software is good.

Being forced to choose between being able to run older software and newer software benefits no one and can potentially hurt everyone.

Because old software and new software is bad.

Thus, the two are mutually exclusive and opposites of one another.

Old software is the opposite of new software.

But then I wouldn't expect the usual suspects on here to recognize that but instead to try and redirect attention to some kind of pointless "new and old" comparison as if that somehow makes them opposite of each other rather than a win/loss comparison for the user's sake.

Old software is not the opposite of new software.

Ok. Makes sense.
 
Got it. Old software is good.

Got it. New software is good.

Because old software and new software is bad.

Old software is the opposite of new software.

Old software is not the opposite of new software.

Ok. Makes sense.

You obviously don't get it. You never did. I'd bet you never will. ;)


Well the mess that is the Windows codebase has indeed shown that supporting decades-old software and hardware does indeed hurt everyone...

That's an odd view to have, IMO when Microsoft is constantly improving Windows and working on a vision for the future while Steve is too busy working on the net iGadget to care about what happens to the "trucks" of the industry. Real Macintosh fans get the shaft in favor of more phones and clouds instead of faster graphics. For all its "mess" Windows seems to run the same software faster and better than the Mac these days (graphics aren't even close on the Mac) while Apple cuts features from so-called "Pro" products instead of adding them and seems more concerned about what their phones can do than their flagship computers.

Yes, Vista was terrible at first. OSX looked to be sitting very high and mighty for a couple of years there. Steve let OSX sit on the shelf while he developed the iGadget lines and let the Macintosh lines rot except for minimal CPU updating and the like. Windows7 showed Microsoft wasn't just going to sit around and let Apple brag all day long. Notice how the Mac/PC ads all disappeared when Windows7 showed up. OSX hasn't changed in any truly meaningful way since Tiger came out. Add up all the truly useful changes to OSX since Tiger and you can count them on one hand, while the speed of OSX has been getting slower since Leopard came out with each incarnation including the supposed "efficiency" update that was supposed to be Snow Leopard (yet runs slower in nearly every measurable way from Leopard).

Just where do you think OSX will be when Windows8 comes out? More iOS features added to a stale OSX core? Microsoft isn't sitting on their laurels when it comes to Windows development and that's the key difference. It's not that Apple "can't" do better. It's that they choose not to. Steve has chosen to exit the desktop OS arena and move into what he sees as new territory and the future. The problem is that the old territory isn't exactly going anywhere in the mean time. It's the same as getting out of the computer market in general and making smart devices the new and eventually only focus. Too bad if you still like real computers. Time to get a PC again whether you want it or not because OSX isn't going to be around much longer as a true desktop OS.

I think it's a shame Apple doesn't care about desktop computers and traditional notebooks anymore. Some of us don't think smart phones are ready to replace notebooks and iPads aren't ready to replace desktops and the so-called Cloud is no replacement for a fast internal hard drive and Intel integrated graphics are no competition for a high-end video card nor is a consumer video card in a Mac Pro a replacement for a professional video card (something Apple no longer offers). Throw it in with the new Final Cut "Pro" that isn't professional and the Macbook "Pro" that is a consumer machine and the Mac Pro that wasn't made for anyone and you have Steve's "vision" for modern computing. Simplified machines for clueless users seems to be their only motto these days which is ironic considering todays' users are more computer savvy than past generations, yet Steve treats everyone like they're right out of the 1940s and don't even know what a computer is. Yes, the iPhone is lovely. But what's better about today's Mac than 5 years ago other than faster CPUs? What new feature(s) in OSX makes it so much better than it was a half decade ago? :confused:

Instead of faster graphics with updated OpenGL and better drivers, we get OpenCL (nearly useless thus far). Instead of fixing bugs introduced with Leopard, Lion simply dumps all software compatibility with software made prior to 2005, cutting the already far smaller than Windows software library in half. Instead of keeping up with the latest connectivity standards, Apple turns away from USB3 and uses the currently nearly useless Thunderbolt (as an echo of Firewire) instead with higher priced devices and little support for the foreseeable future from anyone else. Instead of using industry standard connectors, Apple implements its own mini-display port that almost no one else uses (but which Apple makes a small fortune selling adapters for). Instead of better screens, Apple implements glossy only screens. Instead of the latest version of ExpressCard, Apple dumps it entirely on the 15" models in favor of a cheap consumer SD card reader. The Mac Pro keeps adding processors, but doesn't update the bus at all or add the latest industry standards (from eSata to USB3 to enough FW channels and PCI slots to do the job for many professionals) and dumps professional graphics cards from the lineup. Instead of improving on Final Cut Pro's features, they start over and make a consumer grade product and yet call it "Professional" similar to how they call their consumer notebooks "Pro" models.

I could go on but it's pointless. You either love the new Gadget Apple or you lament the loss of the Macintosh lines that now appear to be inevitable. Somehow, I'd call that one heck of a bigger 'mess' than Microsoft supporting older software in their code-base. You can call it whatever you want, of course.
 
I think it's a shame Apple doesn't care about desktop computers and traditional notebooks anymore.

Weird. I'm typing this on a loaded, awesomely awesome 2011 MBP 17" with factory 512MB SSD and it screams. I'm using an OS that gives me all of the power and flexibility I am used to on real UNIX systems (vi and tcsh FTW!) while providing a graphical shell that makes content creation easy without getting in my way the way windows did, and allowing me to be twice as productive as the poor schlubs at work using their firm-issued Dells.

Seems like Apple cares to me.
 
Instead of faster graphics with updated OpenGL and better drivers, we get OpenCL (nearly useless thus far). Instead of fixing bugs introduced with Leopard, Lion simply dumps all software compatibility with software made prior to 2005, cutting the already far smaller than Windows software library in half. Instead of keeping up with the latest connectivity standards, Apple turns away from USB3 and uses the currently nearly useless Thunderbolt (as an echo of Firewire) instead with higher priced devices and little support for the foreseeable future from anyone else. Instead of using industry standard connectors, Apple implements its own mini-display port that almost no one else uses (but which Apple makes a small fortune selling adapters for).

You're getting updated OpenGL and better drivers with Lion.

Thunderbolt IS the 'latest in connectivity standards'. It has far more potential than USB3. But expect to see USB3 on all macs when intel adds it to their chipsets.

And mini displayport IS an industry standard connector. What makes you think it isn't?

Why the rage?...
 
MagnusVonMagnum:
Hardware is not only the graphics card.
Great new features are the track pads you find in all Apple Portables, no Windows based portable has something like it.
The keyboard illumination is another little thing that makes Apple products a better hardware.
Battery life seems to be another hit for Apple focus nowadays.
Integrated HD video camera was another nice addition.
Maybe with Thunderbolt some external accelerated graphics solutions could be implemented in the future?
So far anything I would like to do with my Mac is possible, and old software is usable with thing like vMac, SheepShaver, and probably with Virtual Machines and Lion.
If the Apple adapter seem to be too expensive for you, you can buy from monoprice.com any cable or adapter that you need for a much lower price.
Get you Windows hardware and enjoy your accelerated graphics, or start a real campaign in the forums to provide feedback via Apple's website.
I would love to have the latest and greatest graphics card ever, but do I really need it? Maybe not... I am pretty happy running some classic Mac Apps and games in black and white. My MBP can run pretty well my LCD TV for what I use it.
There are rumors about retina displays coming for the Macs, if they become a reality we might see Apple changing our standards for Mac graphics.
 
That's an odd view to have, IMO when Microsoft is constantly improving Windows and working on a vision for the future while Steve is too busy working on the net iGadget to care about what happens to the "trucks" of the industry.

Microsoft's vision for the future is the same as always - "embrace and extend" to control everything. They waste billions on ridiculous endeavors trying to monopolize phones, music players, video games and everything else because "hey, it worked 30 years ago with computer operating systems".

When it comes to Steves, I'll take Jobs over Balmer every time.

As for Windows 8, that's just Windows 7 Ultimate with the Windows 7 Mobile interface slapped on top of it. Lion may be adopting iOS features and controls, but at least they're going to be functional enhancements and not just "eye candy" like Aero was under Vista / Win7.

And as to the Macintosh and OS X, I "switched" back in 2007 with the first Al iMac and a white MacBook and never regretted it one moment. Compared to using the same applications (Office, Adobe) on Windows at work, I find OS X to be much more...elegant...both visually and interactively. And I consider Leopard and Snow Leopard to be significant upgrades in features and functionality to OS X since Tiger, just as Lion will be.

I find OS X to still be excellent for what I want and need from a computer operating system and I prefer the form of Apple computer hardware so I will welcome Lion with open arms just as I welcomed my new 13" MBP and 27" iMac.
 
Microsoft's vision for the future is the same as always - "embrace and extend" to control everything.

You don't think Apple has been attempting to control everything lately, especially related to their App stores and the usual patent crap and the usual anti-competition measures thereof (i.e. the stuff with magazine subscriptions and the like and their attempts to force the 30% share?)

Sorry, but I find Apple and Microsoft to be blood brothers lately when it comes to greed and control. I don't like either company. If Apple doesn't want to offer mid-range expandable hardware, they could at least license one company out there to do it for them. I shouldn't have to go Hackintosh just to get expandability without having to pay through the nose for a Mac Pro with features I don't need at that price point (e.g. protected memory and Xenon processors).

I'd consider a feedback type thing to get features except that I know Apple doesn't care one bit. Steve has said he doesn't listen to customers. He only listens to himself. He seems to enjoy e-mailing people to tell them things like "too bad" or "sorry" or "nope" or whatever when they ask about a missing feature or whatever. Yes, that's lovely. Thanks for nothing, Steve baby. The one nice thing about the PC (whether Windows or Linux and even a Hackintosh to some extent) is that I don't have to ask anyone for any features hardware-wise. I can just build the darn thing with the hardware that I actually want (although limited in the case of a Hackintosh to things there are drivers for which currently means no USB3).

I've preferred OSX for several years now, especially for a lack of malware, but it does grate to know that OSX COULD do it all better than Windows, but Steve just doesn't seem to give a crap about certain areas of computing. You'd think he'd want OSX to be the best at everything just for the bragging rights, but putting the "most advanced operating system" label on OSX seems to be enough for him even when it's not completely true.
 
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