Over moderation of the forum?

[8767092]

I have just seen first hand how the over moderation of the site is starting to look like StackOverflow. I just come here to look for fixes for bugs or help users solve a problem I've seen. This forum has been very helpful over the last almost 2 decades. With that said, having working fixes that solve problems removed by moderators leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. We're providing free content for Macrumors that brings visitors for them to advertise to. Everybody has to eat, but why are we working for free if our work is just trashed? I'm debating just throwing in the towel and moving on.

Anyone else seeing the over moderation taking hold here and thinking the same?

-8767092

 

[Apple_Robert]

If you have a question about any moderation you may have recently received, use the contact us form to contact the Admins so that your concern can be looked into and properly addressed with you in private.

Contact us

forums.macrumors.com

 

[8767092]

I've also reached out to them via that form, but it doesn't actually work:

I wanted more of a community opinion instead of "We're taking your concerns very seriously" too. I'm close to deleting my account anyway after today. Might as well ask after being here almost 20 years to see if anybody else feels it is becoming too heavy handed

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[Apple_Robert]

I've also reached out to them via that form, but it doesn't actually work: View attachment 2521786

I wanted more of a community opinion instead of "We're taking your concerns very seriously" too. I'm close to deleting my account anyway after today. Might as well ask after being here almost 20 years to see if anybody else feels it is becoming too heavy handed

-8767092

If you scroll down a little in this same forum, you will see at least 3 ongoing threads discussing the kind of thing you are seeking community input on.

You have been a member for 17 years. In my opinion, throwing away free membership because of a slight mod slap on the forum wrist seems a bit of an overreaction. The mods aren't perfect people but, they do the very best they can to administer and adjudicate the rules of the forum equally for one and all. Sometimes, users may not agree with some kind of mod action taken against them but, overall, I believe this business of Arn's runs very well. If we sought to leave any place or person any time our feelings got hurt or we disagreed with someone, we wouldn't have much life left to live.

If you seek an honest explanation from the Admins, they will clarify the reasoning of the action for you. And if by chance, a mistake was made in the moderation process, the Admins will investigate and if warranted, overrule the action taken upon a member, and issue an apology. I don't think it gets better than that.

 

[8767092]

We can disagree if it is an overreaction or not. I consider the entire situation with moderation to be extremely disrespectful, but that's me. I wanted more opinions and I'm getting one from you now. Yours seems to be a sunken cost assessment where we accept disrespect. I don't agree with that, but thank you for contributing

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[MacCheetah3]

I guess, you could refer to it as “over” or “heavy” moderation” though I think it as more of inconsistent, including sometimes too lenient. An example thread if you want to continue on this avenue:

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/so-over-the-inconsistent-moderation.2456783

One of the common scenarios that I noticed, including one I had posts removed and was suspended about, is when some forum members have what should be considered frivolous posts of “Apple’s just being greedy.” “It’s planned obsolesce.” “You’re just a bunch of Apple/Apple Tim apologists.” where I follow up with explanations, including links as to why I feel such a way, came to a conclusion, etc. Basically, try to keep the conversation moving in a constructive manner — I’m also an all in “show your work” type of person, whether that’s citing sources or just otherwise showing how you reached your comment.

Anyway… The problem I see is the scene has become a whine fest. Sure, there’s general negativity. However, I’m more so referring to it feels like we should need to click the Report button on thousands of posts. To me, that’s just ridiculous. In other words, it’s like siblings calling out to their parents every 15 minutes “Mom! Zack did this.” “Mom, but Sara is doing this.” “Dad! Tyler just called me a name.” and so on. And, in fact, I finally did use the Report feature within the past week. Even though it did result in the offender editing out the direct insult in their post, that feels more like painting over the problem then fixing. Basically, I contribute but now feel like it’s in a library or probably closer to detention. Therefore, I lean towards not participating in many discussions where I otherwise would, namely if I see any of the previous paragraph examples.

Ultimately.. This constant need for moderation is why the Macworld forum closed — unfortunately, I can’t find their statement. I did find this as I remember the username well:

The passing of a forum god

Macworld forum god, Grant G, who passed away earlier this week, was a sterling reminder of just how kind, generous, and helpful people can be.

www.macworld.com

A reminder there are always at least a few people/members in these virtual spaces that demonstrate a strong point as to why they exist.


Any who… I said my piece.

 

[maflynn]

having working fixes that solve problems removed by moderators leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.

Obviously we cannot discuss specific moderation, as per the rules, but if I can make some assumptions, the content was removed due to the fact the the solutions offered violated copyrights, piracy, or potentially could cause harm.

If you had attached zip files of "fixes" those almost always will be removed given the risk of not knowing what's contained in those files and potentially be harmful, either explicitly or just by someone incorrectly using them.

Other then what I mentioned, I cannot fathom why a potential fix to a technical problem would be removed. I'll also say that the moderators themselves have always been on the front lines trying to provide help, fixes, and solutions to people's problems.

 

[I7guy]

I also cannot fathom why a technical fix to solve an ongoing issue is removed, unless said fix infringes on some copyrighted material or is an unapproved way (whatever that is) to perform some action.

edit this:
"Warez/Serials/Keys. Do not post software serial numbers or keys or refer people to specific websites, software, or techniques whose purpose is to break or bypass software licensing methods, distribute cracks, or obtain or use commercial software or media in violation of its license and/or for copyright violation. Do not ask for or give such help."

 

[Weaselboy]

I have just seen first hand how the over moderation of the site is starting to look like StackOverflow.

If you would like to waive your right to privacy, we can ask an admin to post here explaining why your post was moderated and what rule was involved.

 

[8767092]

I waive it. The so called rule was already specified though. The answer was researched through GenAI. I marked it as "AI slop wrote" and we waited to verify the fix worked for the original poster after validating it. The original poster validated the fix matched what we saw and marked it resolved. Future people having that issue would find the answer via Google, Macrumors would get search engine traffic, advertisers get eyeballs, Macrumors business goes brrr to pay for servers, and we all go on to the next post until... and you can imagine what happens next

-8767092

 

[Weaselboy]

I have passed this along to the admins to get you a response explaining the moderation.

 

[M4th]

Interested to know what OP refers to as so called rule but in the meantime:

( ^ this actually happened in real life, no slop involved yet still a bit messy.)

 

[annk]

I have just seen first hand how the over moderation of the site is starting to look like StackOverflow. I just come here to look for fixes for bugs or help users solve a problem I've seen. This forum has been very helpful over the last almost 2 decades. With that said, having working fixes that solve problems removed by moderators leaves a very sour taste in my mouth. We're providing free content for Macrumors that brings visitors for them to advertise to. Everybody has to eat, but why are we working for free if our work is just trashed? I'm debating just throwing in the towel and moving on.

Anyone else seeing the over moderation taking hold here and thinking the same?

I waive it. The so called rule was already specified though. The answer was researched through GenAI. I marked it as "AI slop wrote" and we waited to verify the fix worked for the original poster after validating it. The original poster validated the fix matched what we saw and marked it resolved. Future people having that issue would find the answer via Google, Macrumors would get search engine traffic, advertisers get eyeballs, Macrumors business goes brrr to pay for servers, and we all go on to the next post until... and you can imagine what happens next

I'm confused that you call this overmoderation (in the post title) when you are clear the the rule was already specified. I'm interpreting this to mean that you knew about the rule. In that case, I can point out that we know that not everyone will agree with all the rules, but that doesn't mean that users can break the ones they don't agree with.

Or maybe it's the case that you weren't aware of the rule until after your post was moderated and you got the moderation message that explains. Even in that case, I don't see how this is over moderation - it's simply moderation according to the rules.

Either way, this doesn't have to do with users providing free content, but rather users helping each other without posts with AI-generated content.

The rule:

Don't post content produced by artificial intelligence ("generative AI"). Even if you use generative AI to research an issue, posts must be in your own words and represent your comments or opinions. Exception: You can post AI-generated content if you are giving examples in a discussion thread about the topic of generative AI.

The rule was created because we began to see posts generated by AI bots and spammers who created content with AI. This means that unfortunately even a helpful post with content created with AI isn't allowed.

 

[splifingate]

This forum has been very helpful over the last almost 2 decades.

Aye; this it has. And will continue to be (if I may be so bold)!

I had more than a handful of "why the heck?!?" moderation events over the years . . . that's just an inevitable part of the sharing process.

Amazing that a few peeps can actually scan all these psots....

Try not to take it too badly: it's just a small slice-off of your output, not an biopsy of your heart

 

[8767092]

I'm confused that you call this overmoderation (in the post title) when you are clear the the rule was already specified. I'm interpreting this to mean that you knew about the rule. In that case, I can point out that we know that not everyone will agree with all the rules, but that doesn't mean that users can break the ones they don't agree with.

Or maybe it's the case that you weren't aware of the rule until after your post was moderated and you got the moderation message that explains. Even in that case, I don't see how this is over moderation - it's simply moderation according to the rules.

Either way, this doesn't have to do with users providing free content, but rather users helping each other without posts with AI-generated content.

The rule:

Don't post content produced by artificial intelligence ("generative AI"). Even if you use generative AI to research an issue, posts must be in your own words and represent your comments or opinions. Exception: You can post AI-generated content if you are giving examples in a discussion thread about the topic of generative AI.

The rule was created because we began to see posts generated by AI bots and spammers who created content with AI. This means that unfortunately even a helpful post with content created with AI isn't allowed.

I'm taking this to mean we should just link to reddit for actual discussions with the real fixes like they do in the Mac and PC Gaming forum as no one posts here anymore.

Can you confirm you would rather us move all discussions off site to comply with the rules? If so, we should just delete our accounts. Why do we need Macrumors with overmoderation and incomplete discussions with the fixes removed when they're already linking to social media in various forums? reddit's macgaming forum doesn't remove useful information that fixes issues because of this or that. The fix and content IS the priority and that is a good thing.

Are you an administrator with the business side of the site? If not, you might want to ping someone in business. The forum drives site traffic via search engines and every thread here about overmoderation is a decades long member that is being pushed off the site. The new information about games is over on reddit directing traffic there instead of here. Do you want that to continue until there is no traffic coming from Google? Don't forget that AI is already eating your search engine traffic. Don't make it worse by pushing the rest of the true organic conversation off site like you already have in Mac and PC Gaming.

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[Scepticalscribe]

I'm taking this to mean we should just link to reddit for actual discussions with the real fixes like they do in the Mac and PC Gaming forum

Ah, no, that was not my understanding of @annk's post.

Actually, what was I took from @annk's post is that those of us who are members of the site should not post content that is - or has been - generated by AI.

Rather, we should write our own posts, - and not post content, or material, that has been generated by AI.

as no one posts here anymore.

Seriously?

"No-one posts here anymore"?

Can you confirm you would rather us move all discussions off site to comply with the rules?

Come on.

Nobody anywhere has suggested that, and I am unable to see how you could construe such a recommendation from the reply you have received.

If so, we should just delete our accounts.

Why?

.....

Are you an administrator with the business side of the site? If not, you might want to ping someone in business. The forum drives site traffic via search engines and every thread here about overmoderation is a decades long member that is being pushed off the site.

Not pushed, but chooses to leave the site; this is a significant difference in interpretation.

The new information about games is over on reddit directing traffic there instead of here. Do you want that to continue until there is no traffic coming from Google? Don't forget that AI is already eating your search engine traffic. Don't make it worse by pushing the rest of the true organic conversation off site like you already have in Mac and PC Gaming.

-8767092

Do you wish to argue that posters be allowed to use AI generated content, rather than writing a post themselves?

 

[maflynn]

'm taking this to mean we should just link to reddit for actual discussions with the real fixes like they do in the Mac and PC Gaming forum as no one posts here anymore.

I take @annk words as that staff expects members to post their own thoughts and suggestions. I mean you called it AI slop w/o really adding to the content.

The rule is crystal clear, don't just post AI content and call it a day.

Can you confirm you would rather us move all discussions off site to comply with the rules?

This comment seems rather silly, and in no way is the AI rule pushing people offsite for discussions. The AI rule is imposed to provide better quality of discussions and not just have AI content clogging up the forum and most of all keeping people at MR as we are having meaningful discussions.

Why do we need Macrumors with overmoderation

I know you think its over moderation but given the responses, and Ann's response, its cleary not over moderation. Why not provide your own thoughts in the forum instead of relying on AI and when that gets removed, get annoyed. Btw, smaller forums have been shutting down due "AI slop" as you call it, as the bots inundate the forums and its no longer cost effective to keep them running. So something has to be done, and it appears this rule is not terribly invasive.

The forum drives site traffic via search engines and every thread here about overmoderation is a decades long member that is being pushed off the site.

Yes, due to the moderation we have generally high quality posts, with very helpful memberships. I don't believe the staff has ever veered away from the fact that MR has some tighter rules then other sites. The bottom line is, if the philosophy of MR, and how its managed doesn't suit you, then you are free to find another site that better fits your priorities and posting style.

 

[8767092]

Do you wish to argue that posters be allowed to use AI generated content, rather than writing a post themselves?

When someone researches your issue for free, you do what the original poster did. You test it and say thank you very much when it works. You don't do what the moderator did. You never come behind the thank you, spit in the person's face, warn them they'll be BANNED if we continue to work for free, and act like you're helping. The moderator objectively made the internet worse. That is not even an opinion.

We all hate it when we search for an issue, find the same question, and the solution is removed. That is exactly what the moderator did today. If anybody searches for it now, the solution is gone. The question is there. The thank you is there. The solution is not.

As someone in IT, that makes me furious at the level of disrespect involved. They make the internet worse removing the work we did for free, expect people to search for answers instead of making frivolous posts yet remove the answers people could search for, and now defend their policy.

"AI is bad thus we're good for removing working answers from search"? Did anybody even read that before they started to argue it?

Yes, due to the moderation we have generally high quality posts, with very helpful memberships.

The tense is wrong or soon to be. That's why we see more reddit links to the gaming forum just as one example. I'm not the only one that gets fed up and stops posting for months/years then comes back. I think that's done now. reddit is just more helpful with the issues given that they're discussing the topics and we're not discussing them here.

And imagine using reddit as an example of better moderation given the nightmare we have over there.

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[Ben J.]

Anyone else seeing the over moderation taking hold here and thinking the same?

Yes. I stopped using the forum half a year ago, thinking the same.

I check in once in a while, and I see it deteriorating quickly. Lots of good people with support competence has left, because of the things you mention, I suppose. The "Mac Basics, Help and Buying Advice" section today has its ten latest posts going back a week. Not much people using it, IOW - for getting help or helping out, it seems.

Just leave. It's nothing like it used to be.

 

[M4th]

When someone researches your issue for free, you do what the original poster did. You test it and say thank you very much when it works. You don't do what the moderator did. You never come behind the thank you, spit in the person's face, warn them they'll be BANNED if we continue to work for free, and act like you're helping. The moderator objectively made the internet worse. That is not even an opinion.

We all hate it when we search for an issue, find the same question, and the solution is removed. That is exactly what the moderator did today. If anybody searches for it now, the solution is gone. The question is there. The thank you is there. The solution is not.

As someone in IT, that makes me furious at the level of disrespect involved. They make the internet worse removing the work we did for free, expect people to search for answers instead of making frivolous posts yet remove the answers people could search for, and now defend their policy.

"AI is bad thus we're good for removing working answers from search"? Did anybody even read that before they started to argue it?

The tense is wrong or soon to be. That's why we see more reddit links to the gaming forum just as one example. I'm not the only one that gets fed up and stops posting for months/years then comes back. I think that's done now. reddit is just more helpful with the issues given that they're discussing the topics and we're not discussing them here.

And imagine using reddit as an example of better moderation given the nightmare we have over there.

-8767092

All this original (kudos to the OP) screed says to me is that they didn't know about Rule 13 until it was dutifully brought to their attention with typical remediation. Here's hoping the ensuing posterior excruciate will diminish in time, ointment may possibly expedite the process... or carefully craft another metphorical albatross necklace from thin air and wear it regally ever after? The world wonders.

Every MR forum rule (like for drivers in traffic) including the nefarious 13 can only make this stretch of the information superhighway better, if they are enforced. YMMV.

 

[MacCheetah3]

Ah… Okay…

@8767092 When you say posting a “solution” is that essentially a copy and paste of a Web search AI summary?

If so, I get it. Well… Mostly… Sort of….

AI summaries of Web search results are actually decent. Honestly, most of the garbage in that regard is due to the system summarizing garbage sources. Sure, that’s still a fault but not ridiculous. Actually, the aspect is quite human, falling for “If it’s on the Internet, it must be true.” Anyway…As mostly nice and neat as those summaries can be, they’re still typically just a decently condensed copy and paste of the results. Meaning, you (just) need to skim the referenced/linked pages for the info (e.g., instructions) you’ve found helpful, then link to that source. There are exceptions — I’ve come across only a couple of instances — when a/the source page is so ad-riddled or otherwise terribly formatted that you can’t copy the material and/or you (reasonably) assume most people wouldn’t be able to navigate the jumbled mess to see the solution. In which case, yes, the AI parsed content does seem most reasonable to directly quote.

With that said, it still probably goes against the MR forum rules.

On the other hand, maybe I’m way off base. My similar thought:

I mean you called it AI slop

I marked it as "AI slop wrote"

Therefore, I’m at least a little confused as to why you would be (strongly) advocating for it — that is, directly quoted — as a solution.

 

[8767092]

Ah… Okay…

@8767092 When you say posting a “solution” is that essentially a copy and paste of a Web search AI summary?

I think that's where there is a disconnect. There is a significant difference between getting an AI summary on the Google search page and using o3-pro, Claude 4 Opus, and Gemini 2.5 Pro as an agent group. These systems are much more powerful than the free editions that are popular online. For example, many would think using ChatGPT to search is always like GPT4o when the much more powerful o3-pro or o4-mini-high are able to agentically reference dozens of web sources in the time it would take you or me to check just two or three. That's not even considering Deep Research which can check far far more.

One extremely powerful use I've found for this agent group is solving problems in Crossover/Wine for games like a missing .dll or changing a setting. It's able to get things working very quickly just from logs and a bit of back and forth. That's why I keep talking about the gaming forum. I came back here to find more gaming discussion, but it's all on reddit

Therefore, I’m at least a little confused as to why you would be (strongly) advocating for it — that is, directly quoted — as a solution.

I paid for the tokens used to research it and write it. This isn't a free search. Why wouldn't I want to share what I paid for with the OP who asked? As far as AI slop, I say that about everything Ai creates even working secure code


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[MacCheetah3]

I think that's where there is a disconnect. There is a significant difference between getting an AI summary on the Google search page and using o3-pro, Claude 4 Opus, and Gemini 2.5 Pro as an agent group. These systems are much more powerful than the free editions that are popular online. For example, many would think using ChatGPT to search is always like GPT4o when the much more powerful o3-pro or o4-mini-high are able to agentically reference dozens of web sources in the time it would take you or me to check just two or three. That's not even considering Deep Research which can check far far more.

One extremely powerful use I've found for this agent group is solving problems in Crossover/Wine for games like a missing .dll or changing a setting. It's able to get things working very quickly just from logs and a bit of back and forth. That's why I keep talking about the gaming forum. I came back here to find more gaming discussion, but it's all on reddit

In my opinion, this is at best a gray area. If we leave out forums, message boards, and the like are more than troubleshooting discussions, why even have them at all then? That is, if “AI” can answer every technical problem anyway. Additionally, unless the solution is a set of simple instructions, which I’m not sure why it would need to be quoted or would be obvious AI generated*, I think, it's reasonable or at least feasible for you to summarize or rewrite the troubleshooting conclusion.

* For example, “1. Hold the option key. 2. Click on the Wi-Fi icon in the menu bar. 3. Click ‘Open Wireless Diagnostics…’ 4. Follow the instructions."

I paid for the tokens used to research it and write it. This isn't a free search. Why wouldn't I want to share what I paid for with the OP who asked?

That subject has many town halls of deep debate, applying to many things.

 

[annk]

@8767092, the moderators don't look at users as if they're working for free. Users here aren't being taken advantage of as unpaid tech support. This is a place to engage in discussion. When users are able to help each other, that's great, but it's not considered free work. No one is being pushed out - participation is a choice.

There's nothing wrong with posting a link to a solution on another site, but it's best when users also write their thoughts and/or experiences with the fix they link to. I think that's very different than driving the convo offsite. The rule about AI-generated content was put in place because we noticed more and more posts where the content wasn't generated by a human. That's not what we want this site to be. The rule means of course that a helpful post might occasionally not be allowed, but that's something we can keep an eye on over time - AI on discussion forums is an evolving issue.

Other users in this discussion, including @Scepticalscribe and @maflynn, put it well.

 

[8767092]

@8767092, When users are able to help each other, that's great, but it's not considered free work. No one is being pushed out - participation is a choice.

Any time a professional does work for others not charging their professional rate is working for free. This is even worse. I actually PAID for the solution out of my own pocket and moderators spit in my face telling me what I paid for and worked to create wasn't good enough. Now, an admin is trying to tell me it wasn't spit. It's rain. Laughable.

There's nothing wrong with posting a link to a solution on another site [...] I think that's very different than driving the convo offsite.

The rule means of course that a helpful post might occasionally not be allowed, but that's something we can keep an eye on over time - AI on discussion forums is an evolving issue.

I explained the problem in detail. Maybe you didn't read it. Let me have AI write it again so you can. I wrote and PAID FOR a solution that was posted to your site in response to a question. Google searches for that question return this site's result. The question is there. The thanks are there. The solution is not there. Do you understand what the problem is here? Yes or No? I want an answer before I go about deleting my account.

As I understand it, the admins prefer screwing over site visitors by removing the answers while leaving the bread crumbs to the site. That is massively disrespectful to the site audience and the people here who work for free and pay to create content for this site. So, would the admins prefer that all the solutions we've posted be removed too so it matches the disrespectful and massively unprofessional way the search engine result are maintained?

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