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reygza

macrumors newbie
Nov 17, 2015
29
24
San Diego, CA
I recently ordered from OWC and at the time I ordered both items were in stock, ready to ship next day. A week later, nothing. I contacted them and they said there was a new system in place and give them 24-48 hours. 48+ hours later, still nothing and contact CS one more time. Now they tell me that one of the items is back ordered and they could remove that to ship the other immediately. WTF happened to ship next day. I asked them to cancel and I ordered an alternative from somewhere else. Also, my EnvoyPro FX keeps getting dismounted and I just realized it was the drive after connecting it directly to my Mac instead of the hub.

OWC was always my go-to but never again.
 
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Alan Wynn

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2017
2,385
2,408
Do you KNOW that "on package" RAM costs substantially more than "off package" RAM?
I did not say that it costs more or less, just that it is not the same thing. I have no idea how much it costs Apple, nor from what you have said, do you. It is my understanding (possibly mistaken), that once it is on package, it cannot be replaced. If that is correct, I would guess it has lower yield (even worse for larger configurations) and so would be more expensive. However, I do not that to be the case, but I do know that you are comparing different things.

Else, whether "different animal" or not, pricing for RAM & SSD is exploitive IMO and turns me off as a very long-term Apple customer in need of a new laptop soon. I'd much rather buy yet another Mac... but not at relatively ridiculous RAM & SSD upgrade pricing.
As you said before and it is great that other companies offer options that are more suited to your needs. I really like unified memory architectures and since no one else offers one, they are what I buy. Just out of curiosity, how much VRAM does that HP you posted offer? What is the maximum VRAM configuration? With a Macbook Pro, I can get 128GB of unified memory, that is used by both GPUs and CPUs. When you show me a comparable configuration from another vendor and their pricing, I will be happy to consider it.
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,956
8,341
Different animal, than on package RAM.
Apple's inflated RAM pricing has been going on since long before the M-series processors introduced any hardware difference. As recently as 2020 Apple was already charging $200 to upgrade an iMac from 8GB to 16GB, which used bog-standard DDR sticks. When I got an iMac in 2017, the 8-16GB upgrade price was the same $200/£200 - yet I upgraded mine with the exact same pair of 8GB Micron sticks from Crucial for £140 and kept the original 8GB for a total of 24GB. The $200 price for a RAM upgrade is pure "policy" and has little to do with the bill of materials.

Even the M1 is using the same (probably Samsung) LPDDR5x RAM technology as in most comparable PC laptops - just soldererd to the CPU package rather than soldered to the motherboard next to it (LPDDR has to be soldered in, although there's a new push-fit LPDDR module format coming Real Soon Now).

Better like-for-like comparison: Lenovo ThinkPad X13 Gen 4 - so, a "premium" PC laptop, not a cheap brick, it uses LPDDR5X RAM and PCIe G4 SSD - £1090 for a 16GB RAM/256GB SSD model so its starting out with twice the RAM of a £1150 MacBook Air. OK, though, maybe the rest of the computer isn't comparable with the Mac, but let's look at the cost of upgrading it - tick "32GB" and the price goes up to £1279. So, that's £190 for an extra 16GB of RAM vs Apple wanting £400 for an extra 12GB (to get 24GB). Except... check more carefully and it turns out that the upgrade has also bumped the SSD from 256GB to 512GB (for which Apple wants another £200).

Note - I'm not comparing the MacBook to the ThinkPad - beyond pointing out that Thinkpad is another premium brand - I'm comparing what the manufacturer wants for an extra 16GB of broadly the same LPDDR5X RAM and 256GB of PCIe4-grade SSD - and the difference is that Apple wants more than three times more - it will take more than Apple maybe needing slightly more expensive chips than Lenovo uses to offset that... and again, the maths has been the same for about a decade, long before Apple started using on-package RAM.
 

DEXTERITY

macrumors 6502a
Aug 14, 2004
683
363
OWC makes good stuff, but if you are in the market for a Thunderbolt dock, instead of their 14 Port Dock, I would go with CalDigit's TS3 Plus or TS4 Dock. Better design, and great product.
Read a few concerning things maybe you can verify - it runs warm, makes a slight buzz noise and it wont power down connected devices like hard drives if you turn off computer.
 

ambientdaw

macrumors regular
Jun 14, 2016
244
182
Sonoma County CA
I have bought my final hard disc drive from OWC, so loud and noisy. I have had many over the years and have had some problems. I will be sticking with Lacie if I continue with spinning drives, and since SSD is STILL so expensive this will likely be the case.
 
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Alan Wynn

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2017
2,385
2,408
Apple goes Silicon and- effectively- eliminates ALL competitors for RAM & SSD.

They eliminated third party RAM because the substantially changed their architecture, and offered something no one else is offering.

Pricing leaps to 3X to 5X vs. competitive market pricing. Consumer wanting an Apple computer can no longer shop around for RAM & SSD. It's pay the "company store" price or don't buy at all. The word 'Exploitive' and the tradition of "Company Store" tends to go together. Where there is a single seller of anything with no competitors, pricing tends to run high. Bring in some competitors and prices tend to go down.

When you can point to another vendor offering a unified memory system that takes third party RAM then you can argue that Apple did this to lock out other options. They offer a product that has major advantages for many users (not only substantially more VRAM enabling things just not possible on small VRAM GPUs, but eliminating transfers between the two sides). Again, point me to any GPU from any vendor (not even limiting your search to laptops) that offers 128 of GPU VRAM at any price.

You also seem not to understand that there is competition, just not with third party RAM. Apple sells complete systems. If people do not feel they are getting value for their money, they will not buy them, as you yourself have made clear.

But all things I write are from a consumer perspective...

No, you write things from your perspective ignoring all differences between those items you compare. When you can show an actually comparable system (with unified memory or even with VRAM that was comparable) your criticism would hold more weight.

And it's hard to know market rates for RAM & SSD and then look at Apple's rates for the same. For only the 8TB SSD upgrade alone ($2200 per Apple) not including the Mac too- just the SSD portion, I was able to purchase a fairly robust whole desktop gaming PC with 10TB of SSDs and 32GB of RAM.

So again you completely negate your earlier argument that Apple has no competition and so can gouge consumers. You used to be a Mac purchaser and now you are not. While you may not believe this, but Apple has to consider this when making pricing decisions. Apple margins have not charged in years, so it seems unlikely that they are making 3-5 times as much on RAM and SSD as they were before, unless they are making much less on something else.


Price Silicon and macOS itself higher since those are the unique elements here, not RAM & SSD... which are- basically- computing commodity elements.

Until you can show someone who is building systems with a unified memory architecture that offers third party RAM, you argument is irrelevant.

Net result could be the same high prices and profit but now the "premium" is associated with what is unique about Apple computers (the parts NOT available from competitors)... not in 3X-5X pricing of the same components available for PCs.

A unified memory architecture is unique to Apple and unless you can demonstrate some counter example, requires non-removable RAM, and RAM that costs what it costs. You keep saying: ”the same components available for PCs” yet you have provided no PC example that has a unified memory architecture with less expensive RAM, nor one with on package memory that is removable, nor one with as much VRAM.

3X-5X RAM & SSD pricing doesn't feel very classic Apple-like... but it certainly delights the shareholders in modern AAPL. As a long-term Apple consumer- pretty much a 2-decade Apple everything guy- it just rubs me very wrong... and is evolving my halo'd view of Apple as such decisions persist.

In 2010, Apple sold a 4GB upgrade for their MacBook Pro, doubling its base RAM for $400. Today, Apple sells an 8GB RAM upgrade for their MacBook air (doubling its base) for $200. Seems like they have lowered their cost of an upgrade, not raised it (just comparing the cost to double the base, not what that actually gives you). Inflation adjusted it is $565 vs. $200, so you are right, it is not very ”classic Apple”.
 

HobeSoundDarryl

macrumors G5
Thanks for the massive brand cheerleading. Sorry you invested that much time to write all that.

I vote with my wallet. This matter disappoints me as a very long-term Apple customer... enough to be considering going a different way with my next computer purchase for the first time in about 20 years. All that doesn't make me see this issue any differently. But if it works for you, good for you.
 

gugy

macrumors 68040
Jan 31, 2005
3,927
5,377
La Jolla, CA
mixed luck with OWC, more returns with them than anyone else. but once I had a working product I was satisfied with it.

Yep, they can be hit or miss. I purchased a TB4 dock, but the ethernet port was not reliable. I returned it at my expense, and they sent me a new one with the same problem. Their support couldn't figure out the issue, and I spent two months on a rollercoaster with several agents who didn't provide feedback. Finally, someone here on MR told me to buy a USB-C ethernet dongle to connect to the dock, and it fixed the issue. So, the product has been fine despite that. I've had other products that were good. Overall, I would buy from them again.
 
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Darren.h

macrumors 6502
Apr 15, 2023
499
855
OWC has always been overpriced. These are just coming back to reality prices in the wake of a recession.

Newegg has better deals.
 

BornAgainMac

macrumors 604
Feb 4, 2004
7,337
5,354
Florida Resident
In 2024, I want to see more Thunderbolt 3 docks that replace the legacy USB 3 ports with more USB-C or Thunderbolt ports. Switched everything to use these cables already.
 

Alan Wynn

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2017
2,385
2,408
Thanks for the massive brand cheerleading. Sorry you invested that much time to write all that.

No brand cheerleading at all. Just pointing out that you are not making like-for-like comparisons.

I vote with my wallet.

Great. So once again, you prove that Apple has competition. You do not value their offering more than their costs. Totally reasonable.

This matter disappoints me as a very long-term Apple customer... enough to be considering going a different way with my next computer purchase for the first time in about 20 years. All that doesn't make me see this issue any differently. But if it works for you, good for you.

Sorry, you seem not to understand why people respond to these posts. I never expected to convince you, especially as you already stated that you had purchased a Windows machine and (basically) thought it was good enough. I just point this out to people who have different needs and want another perspective on comparisons. You do not need large VRAM so you compare unified memory machines to older architectures with much less VRAM. That is not interesting to me. We have many applications where our Mac Studios outperform what should be much faster systems based on synthetic benchmarks because GPU is much more important.

Not your use case. Great. You already bought a system that works for you. There is no Windows system that offers anywhere near that much VRAM for anywhere that price.
 

Alan Wynn

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2017
2,385
2,408
No, your next statement (as well as others on here) shows that. You need a Windows machine (or at least a reliable solution for running x86_64 Windows applications) and Apple Silicon already makes that a much different proposition. You were not looking to buy a Mac, you were looking to buy a single system that might solve both needs and decided that for various reasons (one of which might have been prices of RAM and SSD), you would instead buy a Windows machine.

It's not a decision I have to make immediately, so there's time for Apple to either throw customers a bone to get "my" (and others thinking like me) money or keep maximizing on each unit sold for those shareholders. My existing MB is still getting the job done but it doesn't have a lot of time left.

You keep acting Apple is gouging for their machines and this is a new phenomena. Apple margins have not changed in years, it maybe they have changed how they allocate their costs (although as others and I have already pointed out, their RAM prices have always been higher.

They offer a different set of choices than Windows PC vendors and I am very happy for you that you are satisfied with the choice you made to buy one of those. It sounds like it will serve your needs quite well.

Since there is no other machine that serves my needs at anywhere near the cost, I will be quite happy to continue buying Macintosh systems.
 

gugy

macrumors 68040
Jan 31, 2005
3,927
5,377
La Jolla, CA
No brand cheerleading at all.
I don't mind cheerleading Apple. Yes, we pay a premium, and sometimes I get very frustrated about it. However, the few times I had the unfortunate experience of using a Windows or an Android phone, it reminds me how grateful I am that Apple exists. Nothing in life is perfect, so I would rather pay that premium to use a product that truly satisfies my professional and amateur needs. If people enjoy the competition, congratulations to them for finding what makes them happy.
 
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keithdoc

macrumors member
Nov 23, 2016
66
49
there are two big problems (a) the USB-C and Thunderbolt 4 connections have been unstable on two, i.e. light touches cause them to disconnect . . . .
And that's why they want to sell you the Kling-on (to secure those cables to their dock)
 

keithdoc

macrumors member
Nov 23, 2016
66
49
I have bought my final hard disc drive from OWC, so loud and noisy. I have had many over the years and have had some problems. I will be sticking with Lacie if I continue with spinning drives, and since SSD is STILL so expensive this will likely be the case.

I've owned many Lacie drives over the years. They all crapped out.

I finally splurged on a new external SSD - the OWC Express 1M2 is amazing.
 
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Alan Wynn

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2017
2,385
2,408
Apple's inflated RAM pricing has been going on since long before the M-series processors introduced any hardware difference.
I never claimed that their RAM prices were the same as the cheapest RAM on other systems. My only comments were:
  • Comparing commodity DDR 5 to LPDDR5 that is on package is comparing two completely different things.
  • Apple has always charged more for memory and disk space, so that once they moved to soldered on memory (which as you pointed is required by LPDDR RAM) the option to purchase cheaper (and possibly less reliable) third party memory, went away because it needed to, not because Apple was trying to prevent people from buying it.
As recently as 2020 Apple was already charging $200 to upgrade an iMac from 8GB to 16GB, which used bog-standard DDR sticks. When I got an iMac in 2017, the 8-16GB upgrade price was the same $200/£200 - yet I upgraded mine with the exact same pair of 8GB Micron sticks from Crucial for £140 and kept the original 8GB for a total of 24GB. The $200 price for a RAM upgrade is pure "policy" and has little to do with the bill of materials.

Apple prices its products based on a blend of what people buy, and has never priced them based exclusively on BoM costs.

Even the M1 is using the same (probably Samsung) LPDDR5x RAM technology as in most comparable PC laptops - just soldererd to the CPU package rather than soldered to the motherboard next to it (LPDDR has to be soldered in, although there's a new push-fit LPDDR module format coming Real Soon Now).

I would wonder if yields are different (and so costs are different. It might be easier to rework a failed RAM module on a PCB, rather than on a CPU. Not being privy to their costs, I have now idea (but I would say that someone comparing LPDDR5 to commodity DDR5 certainly has no idea.

Note - I'm not comparing the MacBook to the ThinkPad - beyond pointing out that Thinkpad is another premium brand - I'm comparing what the manufacturer wants for an extra 16GB of broadly the same LPDDR5X RAM and 256GB of PCIe4-grade SSD - and the difference is that Apple wants more than three times more - it will take more than Apple maybe needing slightly more expensive chips than Lenovo uses to offset that... and again, the maths has been the same for about a decade, long before Apple started using on-package RAM.
Yup, but unfortunately, one has to compare the machines, because Apple does not really sell the components separately and they use a blended pricing model - in other words, they recover more of their R&D from the person buying a more expensive system than from those buying less expensive ones. You may not like that model, but that is why they have always done it. I agree that Apple has always charged more and that is why. The other differences like a unified memory architecture (and for that matter resale value) also need to be considered when one is comparing the systems for that very reason.

None of those things may matter to you, as they certainly do not matter to @HobeSoundDarryl, but it does not mean they do not exist.
 

roland.g

macrumors 604
Apr 11, 2005
7,471
3,254
Read a few concerning things maybe you can verify - it runs warm, makes a slight buzz noise and it wont power down connected devices like hard drives if you turn off computer.
I've had my TS3+ for over 4 years and never noticed any of those issues.
 

Admiral

macrumors 6502
Mar 14, 2015
398
971
OWC clearing out its Thunderbolt 3 and 4 docks and accessories is a strong signal that Thunderbolt 5 is on the cusp of making its first appearance in new Apple products. Isn't there an Apple event coming up in early March?
 

Pecka

macrumors 6502
Jan 13, 2022
286
252
mixed luck with OWC, more returns with them than anyone else. but once I had a working product I was satisfied with it.
Bought a HDD dock from them that I had to return because it didn't function properly.

From what I've read their quality control seems so-so.
 
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nt5672

macrumors 68040
Jun 30, 2007
3,710
8,105
Midwest USA
Problem: My second display doesn't always connect when I wake up my MBP when connected to my TB dock, but the primary display always does. I have to unplug and replug it to get it to recognize it. This is a pain when I have drives plugged into my dock, as I have to unmount everything, and the purpose of using TB with a MBP is to just have one cable for power and data so I can quickly grab and go.

Details: I bought an M3 Max 14" MBP last autumn to replace my desktop Intel iMac and my Intel MBP, so this is my first time using a Thunderbolt dock off of a laptop. I have an Anker 577 Thunderbolt Docking Station (13-in-1, Thunderbolt 3). The primary 4K display has USB-C video port built-in. The second 4K display is a couple years older and has HDMI but is essentially the same as both are LG and good displays in the same range of quality and price when purchased ($450-500). So the primary is connected directly to a TB port on the dock, and the secondary to an HDMI port.

Question: Is this a software problem with macOS, a hardware problem with my dock, or a hardware problem with the mix of displays that I am using? Because I'm wondering if I should jump on this deal for the OWC 14-Port Thunderbolt Dock. Thanks.
I have the same problems with OWC Thunderbolt Hub connect to an iMac. For the 2nd display I had to switch from VGA to HDMI just to get it to work. Then whenever the displays sleep, the horizontal scan is off when the 2nd display wakes up. Have to power down the 2nd display to get it to work. The Hub won't work through Xcode for any devices. All in all I think these are Apple driver problems, but I really don't know. I often power down the Hub just to get things working.
 

marstan

macrumors 6502
Nov 13, 2013
293
209
re: Apple premium

Apple commands a premium for their products for multiple reasons: Integration, ergonomics, aesthetics, unique or novel applications of technology, support and, of course, marketing. So, yes, people will pay the premium for ram or ssd because all those aforementioned reasons are so compelling. And, if I may say so, if a company is going to pay attention to all of those factors and do them well, then they damn well deserve a premium. Obviously the market agrees.

Note: If I were going to move away from Apple I would start with the desktop and not the laptop. Power efficiency doesn't matter so much on the desktop; it does on the laptop.
 
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