Pages 3 Features?

[Snowy_River]

By the way...

A little off topic, but seeing as how this thread seems to be being frequented by Pages-ophiles, I have a question...

I'm working on a booklet that's designed to simply print to 8-1/2 x 11 pages, and be folded over, giving a 5-1/2 x 8-1/2 booklet. Does anyone know of a straight-forward way of getting this to print out properly? (Right now I'm printing each page separately, which means that each piece of paper goes through the printer four times, if you see what I mean).

I'd be delighted if anyone has an easier way to handle this...

(P.S. I didn't see an easy way to do this in MS Word either... )

 

[IJ Reilly]

How about a two-column landscape layout? You'll need to set the margins, columns and the gutters properly, but after that, you should be good to go. (Then you can save it as a template for next time.)

 

[Snowy_River]

That's more or less what I've done. The issue is this. If you envision a twenty page booklet, it will consist of five pieces of paper. On the front of the first piece of paper, the left panel will be page 20 and the right panel will be page 1. On the back, the left panel will be page 2 and the right panel will be page 19. And so on. It is this non-sequential printing of the pages that I'm struggling with. How do you tell it to print pages 20 and 1 on the first piece of paper, other than having it print page 1, then putting the paper back into the printer and having it print page 20.

(A big reason that I'm trying to get away from the manual solution is that I want to save this as a PDF so I can hand it to a copy shop to print out multiple copies for me. But, unfortunately, you can't print to a PDF page twice. Oh, and I've tried using the Layout option in the print dialog, but it reduces that page image dramatically, so 10pt font becomes 6pt font. So that wasn't a good solution...)

 

[bbassett67]

 

[QuarterSwede]

Noooo, not a grammar check! They are ALWAYS horrible!

 

[bluebomberman]

Snowy-

Any professional copy shop should be able to take your sequential, 5.5" x 8.5" size pages and turn it into a booklet with binding in the middle. My understanding is that they have super-expensive machines that can do that without much effort.

I don't think you need to futz around with a non-sequential layout unless you plan to print this out yourself without the use of fancy $40,000+ copiers.

 

[lifeofart]

Too bad you don't have the latest MSWord!

That's more or less what I've done. The issue is this. If you envision a twenty page booklet, it will consist of five pieces of paper. On the front of the first piece of paper, the left panel will be page 20 and the right panel will be page 1. On the back, the left panel will be page 2 and the right panel will be page 19. And so on. It is this non-sequential printing of the pages that I'm struggling with. How do you tell it to print pages 20 and 1 on the first piece of paper, other than having it print page 1, then putting the paper back into the printer and having it print page 20.

(A big reason that I'm trying to get away from the manual solution is that I want to save this as a PDF so I can hand it to a copy shop to print out multiple copies for me. But, unfortunately, you can't print to a PDF page twice. Oh, and I've tried using the Layout option in the print dialog, but it reduces that page image dramatically, so 10pt font becomes 6pt font. So that wasn't a good solution...)

Too bad you don't have a professional app such as the latest MS Word!

Then you could just open the new brochure wizard. Set it up for four quadrants per page, front and back printing. Place your images & text in the proper quadrant in the proper orientation. Autopage number the quadrants, and email the doc file to your printshop.

Almost all professional printshops except word doc files and can print your brochure out on their professional quality printers on your paper of choice.

But I guess you are stuck with a worthless .pages file and if you fart around with it long enough you might just be able to get something out that a print / copy shop could use.

 

[wmmk]

Too bad you don't have a professional app such as the latest MS Word!

Some people (mainly people who don't need a proffesional app) don't want a professional app.

Then you could just open the new brochure wizard. Set it up for four quadrants per page, front and back printing. Place your images & text in the proper quadrant in the proper orientation.

Yeah, too bad Word isn't as good as that unprofessional pages at aligning images properly

Autopage number the quadrants, and email the doc file to your printshop.Almost all professional printshops except word doc files and can print your brochure out on their professional quality printers on your paper of choice.

Good thing all printshops accept .pdf files!

But I guess you are stuck with a worthless .pages file and if you fart around with it long enough you might just be able to get something out that a print / copy shop could use.

Ain't it great that pages hhas a better .pdf export than Word, and it can export a .doc?

 

[Snowy_River]

Snowy-

Any professional copy shop should be able to take your sequential, 5.5" x 8.5" size pages and turn it into a booklet with binding in the middle. My understanding is that they have super-expensive machines that can do that without much effort.

I don't think you need to futz around with a non-sequential layout unless you plan to print this out yourself without the use of fancy $40,000+ copiers.

You know, that's a good idea.

Here I was so caught up in the idea of getting it to be a final version, I didn't even think of that. Let the machines that are designed to do this do the work....

(I'm not even going to dignify the other snide poster with a response )

 

[lifeofart]

Some people (mainly people who don't need a proffesional app) don't want a professional app.:

Well thats fine and I understand many people don't need a professional app. But this person was complaining about a consumer app "Pages" not having all the features that he needed. Yet he claims vehemently that Pages can fully replace Word

Yeah, too bad Word isn't as good as that unprofessional pages at aligning images properly:

Says who? I have used both and frankly I like Word better for handling graphics. Pages is great if your images work with your templates but if they don't you have to fart around with locking and unlocking, grouping and ungrouping, and it is extremely tedious.

Good thing all printshops accept .pdf files!:

You must not be able to read. Snowy clearly states that .pdf doesn't work for him because it doesn't allow double sided printing.

Look, I am not trying to say Pages is useless. It is a very nice "Consumer level" app. Yes, some pros could make use of it but some pros could also use VI in the terminal window too. Does that mean that it is as useful or has the same features as the "Pro App" MS Word. No.

 

[kiwi-in-uk]

Too bad you don't have a professional app such as the latest MS Word!

Then you could just open the new brochure wizard.

Hey life-o-fart!
When last did you use MS Word for Mac?

 

[lifeofart]

You know, that's a good idea.

Here I was so caught up in the idea of getting it to be a final version, I didn't even think of that. Let the machines that are designed to do this do the work....

(I'm not even going to dignify the other snide poster with a response )

I'm sorry if my comment came off as being snide.

But it really bothers me when people post how wonderful an app is and how useful it is and how it completely replaces a much more expensive app. When in reality it is only a simple consumer level product.

Others read this forum and buy Pages thinking that they can eliminate the use of Word. Then they find out that it really isn't that compatible with Word files. If you email a windows user a .doc file exported from pages, 7 times out of 10 they have problems with it.

Most pro printshops, publishers, law firms etc. only except word .doc files. Almost all law firms require a revision history. Collaboration tools are useally also required. Word handles this expertly. Plus it has table of contents tools, book publishing tools, bibliography tools, direct faxing,multitudes of custom templates, VB programing hooks, etc. etc. None of this has an equivalent in Pages.

I'm glad you found a solution to your problem and I am glad that Pages satisfies your needs for word processing. Maybe someday it will move out of the "consumer" ranks and into the "Pro" ranks when more functionality is added. Apple seems to know the niche that they are addressing very well.

 

[kiwi-in-uk]

...
Most pro printshops, publishers, law firms etc. only except word .doc files. ...

Plus it has table of contents tools, book publishing tools, bibliography tools, direct faxing,multitudes of custom templates, VB programing hooks, etc. etc. None of this has an equivalent in Pages.

...

(my bold emphases).

... oh ... really ??

 

[bobber205]

Ha ha... when I glanced at the RSS feed I thought it said "Page 3 Features?". I thought: "Why the heck would MacRumors add a 'Page 3'? Much of the 'Page 1' stuff never comes to pass, and they've got 'Page 2' for the even less substantiated stuff..."

I thought the same thing.

 

[Snowy_River]

Well thats fine and I understand many people don't need a professional app. But this person was complaining about a consumer app "Pages" not having all the features that he needed. Yet he claims vehemently that Pages can fully replace Word



Says who? I have used both and frankly I like Word better for handling graphics. Pages is great if your images work with your templates but if they don't you have to fart around with locking and unlocking, grouping and ungrouping, and it is extremely tedious.




You must not be able to read. Snowy clearly states that .pdf doesn't work for him because it doesn't allow double sided printing.

Look, I am not trying to say Pages is useless. It is a very nice "Consumer level" app. Yes, some pros could make use of it but some pros could also use VI in the terminal window too. Does that mean that it is as useful or has the same features as the "Pro App" MS Word. No.

Well, it seems that you didn't read my earlier posts. I'm not complaining that Pages doesn't have all the features that I need. I'm asking if there was a way to do what I was trying to do. The answer was yes, and it was quite straight forward.

Also, I take it that you didn't read what I said about the idea of there being "professional" and "consumer" apps. I think it's BS. These are just tools. In fact, based on the argument that Pages isn't a "professional" app because it can't handle printing this way, then MS Word hasn't been a "professional" app until the latest version, because it couldn't either. That's the problem. Where do you draw the line and say "if it can do XYZ then it's a professional app, if it can't then it isn't"?

And, yes, PDF will work fine for me. I was objecting to PDF because I was trying to basically "print" my booklet myself to a PDF file that could simply be printed on any printer by any minimum wage employee. But, as was pointed out, print shops have nice big fancy printers run by people who know what they're doing (at least in theory) that will take a simple, sequential PDF file and properly print it to the correct panel and correct side automatically. It probably works much better than MS Word does, and, by letting someone who works with it all day long do their job, it relieves me of one more thing that I have to worry about figuring out how to do. So, PDF will work for me.

Now, can we drop this whole "professional" vs. "consumer" app business? Lord knows, Pages is quite capable of producing very professional results. I've done it. Just because it doesn't have all of the features that MS Word has doesn't mean it isn't or can't be used as a professional application.

An analogy just leapt to mind. In the world of Mechanical CAD, there are a lot of programs out there that you can use. One example is Pro-Engineer. This is a top of the line product and you can actually spend more than $100,000 on a single licensed seat (tricked out with a lot of add-ons). There is no doubt that this is a professional application (if only because no consumer in his right mind would spend the money on it). In comparison, consider something like AutoCAD. AutoCAD costs a measly $1400, and it has nowhere near the capabilities of ProE. So, by your logic, AutoCAD must not be a "professional" app, but a "consumer" app.

I've known a lot of engineers that would find such an assertion highly offensive.

So, it all comes back to the point that these are tools. It's what the tool is used for that makes it a professional tool or a consumer tool. And I'd guess that MS Word is used quite a bit as a consumer tool, and Pages is being used as a professional tool, too.

 

[lifeofart]

So, it all comes back to the point that these are tools. It's what the tool is used for that makes it a professional tool or a consumer tool. And I'd guess that MS Word is used quite a bit as a consumer tool, and Pages is being used as a professional tool, too.

I understand what you are saying but are you really going to call "Vi" a pro app for word processing and say that it fully replaces Word. You can use any app as a tool to create a professional product.

Apple labels iWork as a "consumer level" app. not me.

My definition of a "Pro level" app is one that has industry maturity, is excepted as standard industry wide, has many many features which allow it to be versatile and is useful in a variety of professional industries. It probably isn't the easiest app to use because it isn't focused to just one industry.

I would bet you that not .1% of printshops, publishers, lawyers, engineers, etc. even know what a .pages file is let alone are they working with it daily.

 

[kiwi-in-uk]

Well said Snowy_River.

Very good point about tools. If two tools are suitable for a given job, then a "pro" will choose the lower cost tool. That is why the pro is in business.

I had forgotten that Word is bundled with MS Works, so of course it must by implication be a consumer application.

For what it's worth, I am just wrapping up a 2000+ page text/spreadsheet/template toolkit that includes 400+ pages of pdfs - all created using Pages. The longest pdf is around 90 pages, including a ToC.

Edit

You can use any app as a tool to create a professional product.

Exactly

My definition of a "Pro level" app is one that has industry maturity, is excepted as standard industry wide, has many many features which allow it to be versatile and is useful in a variety of professional industries. It probably isn't the easiest app to use because it isn't focused to just one industry.

No ... that's the definition of a mature, widely used, feature-rich, difficult to use application.

I would bet you that not .1% of printshops, publishers, lawyers, engineers, etc. even know what a .pages file is let alone are they working with it daily.

That's ok. Excluding lawyers (who sometimes need to track changes, so would naturally prefer Word), which of the others won't accept a pdf?

 

[Snowy_River]

I'm sorry if my comment came off as being snide.

But it really bothers me when people post how wonderful an app is and how useful it is and how it completely replaces a much more expensive app. When in reality it is only a simple consumer level product.

Others read this forum and buy Pages thinking that they can eliminate the use of Word. Then they find out that it really isn't that compatible with Word files. If you email a windows user a .doc file exported from pages, 7 times out of 10 they have problems with it.

Most pro printshops, publishers, law firms etc. only except word .doc files. Almost all law firms require a revision history. Collaboration tools are useally also required. Word handles this expertly. Plus it has table of contents tools, book publishing tools, bibliography tools, direct faxing,multitudes of custom templates, VB programing hooks, etc. etc. None of this has an equivalent in Pages.

I'm glad you found a solution to your problem and I am glad that Pages satisfies your needs for word processing. Maybe someday it will move out of the "consumer" ranks and into the "Pro" ranks when more functionality is added. Apple seems to know the niche that they are addressing very well.

I've been using Pages since it first came out, and I've exchanged documents that were exported from Pages into Word format with other users without any problems. In general, of all word processors that I've worked with (and I've tried out quite a few), Pages has some of the best Word compatibility that I've seen. (That's not to say that I haven't seen some things move - i.e. graphics - on export, but the errors, if any, are generally minor).

To go back to the CAD analogy, in years gone by AutoCAD was the only CAD program, for all intents and purposes. Any new CAD programs were frequently measured, first and foremost, by their ability to exchange documents with AutoCAD. Of course, there was never a perfect ability to make such exchanges, as AutoDesk (makers of AutoCAD) kept the definitions of the dwg file format secret, and usually changed it from one version to the next. So, it made import/export difficult for the competitors, much like what MS does with Office. Did the fact that the exchanges weren't perfect mean that companies who chose to use other CAD packages weren't really professionals? No.

Again, these are just tools.

Will Pages fit the bill for everyone? Of course not. Does MS Word fit the bill for everyone? No. That's why there are different products out there. Certainly, Pages is not as feature rich (you named some specifics, though you missed some of Pages features in your citation ) as MS Word. It's also a much younger program. Is it going to be a Word Killer? Probably not for the foreseeable future. But it's quite capable of doing what probably 90% of what the Word users out there use Word for. If the other 10% are stupid enough to buy it without checking to see whether or not it has the features that they need to do their jobs, then they deserve to have their money go to Apple.

Oh, and what's this about "pro print shops" only taking Word files? I've never been to a print shop that didn't like PDF.

 

[Snowy_River]

I understand what you are saying but are you really going to call "Vi" a pro app for word processing and say that it fully replaces Word. You can use any app as a tool to create a professional product.

If Vi is being used by a professional to produce a professional product, then, yes, I'd call it a professional application. As far as being able to completely replace Word, well if the professional in question was able to stop using Word, then apparently it was able to completely replace Word for that professional.

Apple labels iWork as a "consumer level" app. not me.

Show me where Apple calls Pages a consumer app.

My definition of a "Pro level" app is one that has industry maturity, is excepted as standard industry wide, has many many features which allow it to be versatile and is useful in a variety of professional industries. It probably isn't the easiest app to use because it isn't focused to just one industry.

Your definition of a "professional" app seems mighty arbitrary, even to the extent of excluding most applications that exist. Specialized databases that are designed for a specific industry wouldn't meet your definition. Computer-Aided-Machining (CAM) software (which is only useful in one industry) wouldn't meet your definition. I could go on, but I think you get my point.

I would bet you that not .1% of printshops, publishers, lawyers, engineers, etc. even know what a .pages file is let alone are they working with it daily.

So now you're adding another level of definition to what it takes to be a "professional" app? Some percentage of people have to know about it? And where do you draw the line? Gee, I guess this means that any start-up company trying to produce a new professional application is doomed because how can they ever reach this percentage upon the release so their product can be considered "professional"?

I come back to my point. I think the simplest definition of a "professional" app is an app that is being used by a professional to produce a professional product. Any other definition falls short of the mark, IMO.

 

[digitalbiker]

Apple labels iWork as a "consumer level" app. not me.

My definition of a "Pro level" app is one that has industry maturity, is excepted as standard industry wide, has many many features which allow it to be versatile and is useful in a variety of professional industries. It probably isn't the easiest app to use because it isn't focused to just one industry.

I would bet you that not .1% of printshops, publishers, lawyers, engineers, etc. even know what a .pages file is let alone are they working with it daily.

Very well put. I agree with you 100%. I bought pages thinking it could replace MS Word after seeing Jobs demo at MacWorld a couple of years ago.

When I tried to use it to build a Messier Catlog viewers guide it was the worst software experience I have ever had. It crashed constantly, it corrupted files. It was difficult to manipulate the graphics and get them where I wanted them. Text flow was clumsy. It was painfully slow.

I have a G4 1.67 GHz, 1 GB, PB and it took 7 minutes (I timed it) to open the document. The document contained 100 tiffs and 100 jpgs in tables on only 50 pages. It would open, then it would take another 3 minutes to scroll.

Pages V2 was better but still sucked. I could never make compatible .doc files. Most of my co-workers were on Windows machines running Office 2003 and when I would email the .doc, I would always get an email back saying that something was wrong with my file or that their virus checker said it was bad. Whatever, I had to finally abandon Pages.

I don't even like pages for quick documents. AppleWorks is better or even BBedit, depending on the type of quick document I need.

Even Apple doesn't advertise this product as a competitor for Word. They simple sell it as a consumer level productivity tool.

 

[digitalbiker]

Show me where Apple calls Pages a consumer app.

Oh come on at least give the guy something!

It is common knowledge that Apple markets two principle lines.

The consumer line which used to be prefaced by an "i". iWork, iLife, iBook, iPod, etc.

And the Pro line which used to be prefaced by power or Pro . Ex: PowerBook, PowerMac, Final Cut Pro. etc.

I am also sure that if you review the introduction of Pages at MacWorld it was intended to compete as a consumer product and not a replacement for Word by Steve Jobs. He is always very careful about how he phrases things so that he doesn't upset, MS or Adobe, when they come out with these apps.

 

[bluebomberman]

I'm at a loss trying to figure out how this thread got a bit crazy...

The actual program used in Snowy's case matters little in getting it ready for the printer. You give the printer the file to print, and he/she will print it for you. Doesn't matter if it's a pdf from Word, a pdf from Pages, a doc from Word, an Indesign file, or a Quark Express file. If they can open the file, they can print it.

Again, most copy shops have elaborate folding, binding, stapling, and saddle stitching services that don't require the customer to figure out how to non-sequentually order pages. A skilled copy machine operator should be able to set up the job in less than 10 minutes.

 

[Snowy_River]

Very well put. I agree with you 100%. I bought pages thinking it could replace MS Word after seeing Jobs demo at MacWorld a couple of years ago.

When I tried to use it to build a Messier Catlog viewers guide it was the worst software experience I have ever had. It crashed constantly, it corrupted files. It was difficult to manipulate the graphics and get them where I wanted them. Text flow was clumsy. It was painfully slow.

I have a G4 1.67 GHz, 1 GB, PB and it took 7 minutes (I timed it) to open the document. The document contained 100 tiffs and 100 jpgs in tables on only 50 pages. It would open, then it would take another 3 minutes to scroll.

Pages V2 was better but still sucked. I could never make compatible .doc files. Most of my co-workers were on Windows machines running Office 2003 and when I would email the .doc, I would always get an email back saying that something was wrong with my file or that their virus checker said it was bad. Whatever, I had to finally abandon Pages.

I don't even like pages for quick documents. AppleWorks is better or even BBedit, depending on the type of quick document I need.

Even Apple doesn't advertise this product as a competitor for Word. They simple sell it as a consumer level productivity tool.

Well, I'm sorry that you had such a bad time. However, if someone in your situation were to come to me and say "I'm working in an office with a bunch of people using MS Word where I have to exchange documents back and forth with them, and I was considering trying to use a new piece of software which says it can import and export Word format. What do you think?" I would have told you in no uncertain terms that I think you're nuts for trying such a thing. In-house you need to have 100% compatibility, which no product could ever give you except Word itself.

 

[lifeofart]

Your definition of a "professional" app seems mighty arbitrary, even to the extent of excluding most applications that exist. Specialized databases that are designed for a specific industry wouldn't meet your definition. Computer-Aided-Machining (CAM) software (which is only useful in one industry) wouldn't meet your definition. I could go on, but I think you get my point.

No, I don't get your point. CAM software is used in a variety of industries. Auto companies, airline companies, boat industries, tools industries, machine shops, agricultural industries. But if the CAM software is a mature useful standard in those industries it is probably a very capable pro app. Like wise customized databases would not be a pro app in itself. The database program used is the pro app not the specific database.

So now you're adding another level of definition to what it takes to be a "professional" app? Some percentage of people have to know about it? And where do you draw the line? Gee, I guess this means that any start-up company trying to produce a new professional application is doomed because how can they ever reach this percentage upon the release so their product can be considered "professional"?

It is not another level of defiintion. Industry standard implies that most professionals use it, Doesn't it?

Yes, it is very very difficult for a startup company to produce a competitive pro app in a mature industry. It takes several years for a product to mature and recieve user feedback and multiple modifications before I would classify it as "Pro". That is why these are difficult markets to crack.

 

[Snowy_River]

I'm at a loss trying to figure out how this thread got a bit crazy...

The actual program used in Snowy's case matters little in getting it ready for the printer. You give the printer the file to print, and he/she will print it for you. Doesn't matter if it's a pdf from Word, a pdf from Pages, a doc from Word, an Indesign file, or a Quark Express file. If they can open the file, they can print it.

Again, most copy shops have elaborate folding, binding, stapling, and saddle stitching services that don't require the customer to figure out how to non-sequentually order pages. A skilled copy machine operator should be able to set up the job in less than 10 minutes.

You know, I'm with you. If we don't stop this bickering the thread is likely to get closed. I always find it irritating when that happens. So, I suggest we drop the "professional" vs. "consumer" argument. It's clear that we have different opinions, and neither of us seems to be being swayed by the other's arguments. So, perhaps we should just agree to disagree.

Now, just so I don't get accused of trying to get the last word in before saying that we should drop it, I'll invite those on the other side of the argument to have one last quip, which I won't respond to. Then we can drop it. Sound fair?