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Now I know why I don't want to be a software designer: software patent. Who is the Goofy who got this idea first, he should be beat to dea.. OK, maybe not, but damn, this software patent is getting ridiculus, transfer music to a multimedia device, wow, he should sue Palm too, Sony with PSP,...
By the way, check Mplayer, ffmpeg and VLC getting those problem too. I'm tire of this big american joke. Anybody near them who can say to somebody influent to stop this madness? Next time I encounter a lawyer in that field, I...(censored stuff)...
 
Been there...

When working for a large software publisher I went through this. In our case the competitor was sending copies of their software to our developers. Per our legal department the issue is called "Clean programmer vs Dirty programmer". If a programmer has seen a competitors product they are considered dirty and even if you write your program in a different language you have copied their product and liable. If you can prove your programmers haven't seen the other product you are safe. Now what is weird, everyone else in the company can see the competitors product, and tell programmers about it. That is legal.
 
clayj said:
Your example is invalid because Boeing was building airplanes long before you were born, AND because you don't have a patent. This fellow DOES have a patent, and there's evidence that suggests that Apple employees saw his patented design at a show and then incorporated it into iTunes.

Touchy...

Ummm, the sarcasm was implied. :rolleyes: And unless you are a Patent Lawyer please don't take the "reported" rumor as evidence. Let the courts decide and us to laugh before we get our panties in a twist. :D
 
Wasn't Copyright be enough for software? I mean, people who give patent doesn't seem to know a damn thing about what they patent. Patent a way to do stuff in software code ok, but not the result it's totaly insane. By the way I'm a computer engineer, I'm heading to hardware, at least patent are easier to handle (wich still be a pain in many way too, but it's more clear).
 
Too much time in my mind. One can't possibly be able to make a patent, not defend that patent for years while it becomes popular in the public domain, then after it's a cash cow, cry "foul!"
 
SoundJam....

I would think that when Cassidy & Green sold SoundJam (iTunes) too Apple that some type of Patent search would have to been made or some legal ez written into the contract to protect from it. Apple's legal is fairly good with this stuff or any stuff for that matter, I'm sure they got their A' covered.
 
Let's invalidate ALL software patents!

UGHHH!!! Another company/person abusing the patent system!

The idea of a "software" patent is ludicrous and goes way beyond the spirit of the original patent system.

I'm not a patent attorney, but the way I understand things, the patent system was never set up to protect ideas. It was set up to protect implementation of ideas. For example, you cannot patent the concept of an automobile turn signal so that no one else can produce one. What you can patent is how you've implemented your turn signal -- the various levers, controls, and sensors. If someone produced a turn signal using certain technology and patented that, I could produce a turn signal that looks and functions exactly like the patented one provided I could come up with a completely different way to implement one.

So, how did we go from this to the idea that you can patent ideas and look/feel in software? Software patents should not be issued. The copyright system provides protection for works of art like the graphic design of software.

Maybe we should start a lobby group to get software patents revoked and put an end to this nonsense once and for all!
 
Hiroshige said:
Well, Einstein was a patent examiner and he found it so easy that he spent a significant amount of his time at work developing his theories. So, you, you're no Einstien!

You're obviously clueless. The PTO in Einstein's day didn't deal with a fraction of the patent applications that come across an examiner's desk today. I'm on the other side of the table, the guy trying to get patents for clients and it's not as easy as everyone here thinks. There is often two or three back and forths with the PTO where the examiner finds art that is relevant and the applicant has to narrow their claims to actually get anything.

People aren't perfect, including patent examiners. How would you like it if for every mistake you made, be it on a test, or at work, was posted up for the world to see and a bunch of people to piss and moan about?

Patent 101:
As said before, please, for the love of God, from now on when someone anywhere posts a patent story, skip the abstract skip the figures, and skip the written description. READ THE CLAIMS. They are what matter. Typically a patent agent/lawyer will reuse a written description from another application to save a client money. The specification merely has to support the claims, it does not have any real legal meaning outside that.

I don't know how anyone can say this is vague. It spells it out pretty clearly:

1. A computer user interface menu selection process for allowing the user to select music to be played on a music device controlled by a computer, comprising the steps of:

a) simultaneously displaying on a display device, at least two individual data fields selected from music categories, composers, artists, and songs;

b) selecting at least one item from at least one of the data fields;

c) in response to step b), redisplaying all data fields not having an item selected therefrom with data related only to the at least one item selected in step b), and simultaneously maintaining all items originally displayed in the data fields with at lest one item selected therefrom;

d) selecting an item in the songs data field in response to step c), and

e) playing the selected song item from step d) on the computer responsive music device.

Whether you think it is novel or not, or non-obvious is another matter. But this is not vague. In fact, if I were this guys attorney, I wouldn't have made it a 5-step claim. That's pretty narrow since a person/company has to infringe every element. Additionally, for the examiner to reject this claim based on novelty, he had to find a single piece of art that listed every element. Not three, not four, all five and with the ordering language used in the claim "from step d)" etc. That's a high standard.

As for obviousness, that is when two or more references together disclose the claimed invention, the examiner has to show that there must have been a motivation to combine the references. Showing a kiwi and a strawberry together does not indicate a motive to create strawberry-kiwi fruit juice.

In the US, we have a first-to-invent system with a one year grace-period before the filing date which the inventor can claim they had invented the claimed invention. So since this was filed on Feb 16, 1996, the inventor may be able to claim that he had invented it as far back as Feb 16, 1995. Please show me music jukeboxes BEFORE Feb 16, 1995 that would knock this out. And I don't mean vague references, I mean documented references. Journal articles, trade publications, manuals, etc. Seriously, go find one. Now you have the job of an examiner. Please repeat several times a day. Good luck.

A patent's true purpose is to benefit the public. Benefitting the inventor is a nice idea, but the bargained-for exchange is that the inventor gets a temporary monopoly on a claimed invention in exchange for telling the world how to make/reduce to practice his invention. It does not just protect him while he brings it to market. There is nothing that says anyone has to work towards producing their invention. If they can describe it enough where someone else of ordinary skill in the art could take his patent and create the invention, then that invention is his to do whatever he wants with it. I mean, how would you like it if I told you how to use the land your house sits on?

Lastly, for everyone that thinks the judge will laugh in his face, think again. Patents are presumed valid. That means that the defendants have to show that they are not infringing. The burden of proof is on them (and they will likely argue both non-infringement and invalidaity).

Now if what I've said isn't inflammatory enough, try this: the next time you click reply to a software patent post, please please please stop for a second and humor me. Instead of replying, go read some part of 35 USC, the patent statutes and read the footnotes. It's ok if you don't understand it your first time around. No one does. But you will be able to contribute a much more intelligent reply the next time you do hit reply instead of waving your fist and gnashing your teeth about something you are (all) clearly clueless about.

Sorry, I used to be the same way, but since I started law school and working at a firm, I can't even read these stories anymore. People harp and complain about how broken the system is yet they know nothing about the system at all.

-p-
 
Ti_Poussin said:
Next time I encounter a lawyer in that field, I...(censored stuff)...

What will you do? Seriously? Hit him? Spit on him? Call him dirty names? Tell me where I should meet you and I'll gladly show up. Then you can take out physically all your anger at a system you don't understand on another human. Go ahead. It will make you feel better to beat the crap out of another person because you don't like patent laws.

-p-
 
psxndc said:
Sorry, I used to be the same way, but since I started law school and working at a firm, I can't even read these stories anymore. People harp and complain about how broken the system is yet they know nothing about the system at all.

-p-
There has always been a saying: Those who are in the situation cannot objectively judge the situation, those that are not in the situation can often spot what is wrong or right about it.
 
psxndc said:
What will you do? Seriously? Hit him? Spit on him? Call him dirty names? Tell me where I should meet you and I'll gladly show up. Then you can take out physically all your anger at a system you don't understand on another human. Go ahead. It will make you feel better to beat the crap out of another person because you don't like patent laws.

-p-

Dude... Chill its all good. Let the system work it out and give your heart a break and not let these things get to you. You are a lawyer, and if you let a forum where rumors are tossed around like crack whores, then you will let the system eat you alive.
 
this is BS

Hi,

After being a daily reader of this website, I finally registered for my first post (please share the kleenex..sniff sniff).

Too bad my first post is a rant! :)

WHAT is this company thinking? What a money grab this is! Total ridiculous.
Are they going to sue Creative or Musicmatch b/c their software is similar?
Or better yet, if they were helping Apple at a tradeshow, i wouldn't put it past them to help and I bet they went home and started a list just in case.

I sent a message at: http://www.emusicgear.com/help_answer.asp?ID=46
and let them know that as an Apple user, I will never buy any products or services from them. I suggest you do too.

punks. Sometimes I think Canada should have more lawyers and the ability to sue when we need, but then I see a lawsuit like this and think, "Thank God lawyers are too darned expensive up here (we have to pay regardless and not only if we win, as i understand is the case in the U.S. am i right or wrong with that thinking?).

regardless, i think Itunes absolutely rocks. It soars through my 14,700 songs just beautifully and i'm hoping the new podcasting update supports 3G Ipods :)

Cheers,
Keebler
 
Silly question... I keep hearing that itunes has been out for "4-5 years"... What did you fellow mac users use before that to play music? Quicktime?... This is a legitimate question... :confused:
 
None of us can know the behind the scenes reality of this case. The guy did file a patent for an idea that was before-it's-time. Whether or not Apple copied it - only Apple and the people behind iTune's know that.

For all we know, this guy might have been trying to get Apple to take notice right after the first iteration of iTunes. Maybe he's had a lot of patience during many years of Apple arrogantly ignored him, assuming he'd give up. Or maybe he's a gold digger.

Jumping to Apple's defense immediately with little to no facts or knowledge is creepily zealous. I think there is enough of a chance for a case in the patent that the guy can be given the benefit of the doubt while we see if he really has the proof when the time comes.

Apple is a corporation, and corporations DO steal ideas all of the time...um, Dashboard anyone? And why not - when you've got that much money in the bank, and you're trying to come up with a great product, if someone else has figured it out for you and you think their patent is obscure enough that you can get away with it, why not try and do so? Remember - these guys deal with money and chance-taking on a level that most of us can't comprehend.

I'm not saying Apple did or didn't steal the guys idea. I'm not saying the guy is or isn't a gold digger. I'm saying - we can't possibly know, and always proclaiming that Apple is in the right, as if defending your god, without waiting for the facts is just silly.

I mean, after all, Apple told us for years that Intel chips sucked. Right? :)

Joe
 
iPost said:
I'm not a patent attorney, but the way I understand things, the patent system was never set up to protect ideas. It was set up to protect implementation of ideas. For example, you cannot patent the concept of an automobile turn signal so that no one else can produce one. What you can patent is how you've implemented your turn signal -- the various levers, controls, and sensors.

Sort of. It depends on what you are claiming. Seriously. If when cars were driving around all willy nilly and didn't have turn signals, you could patent "a method for indicating a desired direction of motion in an automobile comprising: providing a singaling apparatus indicating the desired direction, providing a lever operable in two dimensions, the lever in signal communication with the signaling apparatus, moving the lever in one of the two dimensions to cause the singaling apparatus to indicate the desired direction." If no one had thought of that, the patent is yours. You may describe a preferred embodiment of that invention, with certain wires and rigging, etc, but you also retain the rights to "equivalents" of that implementation. Otherwise, where you had black as a ground wire, another person could make a blue ground wire and thus not infringe.

Software is no different. It depends on what you are claiming. If someone else's implementation is equivalent to yours, then they infringe. Black wire/Blue wire is the reason copyright isn't strong enough for software. If you name the variable foo and I name it bar, if I can prove I had never seen your code, even if I had through various third parties, no infringement since it is not a derivative work. All your design time and man hours down the drain.

The patent system doesn't prevent copying. It was never meant to. That IS what copyright is for. The patent system for ANY technology including mechanical, biological, etc. is designed to give an inventor a monopoly on the way to solve a problem and equivalents to that solution. Equivalents is not so sweeping an umbrella to hose everyone, but it prevents the blue wire/black wire from coming along and solving the problem the same way you did.

-p-
 
angelneo said:
There has always been a saying: Those who are in the situation cannot objectively judge the situation, those that are not in the situation can often spot what is wrong or right about it.

I doubt I can diagnose what is wrong with my car better than a mechanic can.

;-)

-p-
 
psxndc said:
You're a dick and obviously clueless. .....
.....Sorry, I used to be the same way, but since I started law school and working at a firm, I can't even read these stories anymore. People harp and complain about how broken the system is yet they know nothing about the system at all.-p-
The thing is, as if often the case with areas of obstruse expertise, it becomes possible to lose the path of common sense while defending logically each step on the road.

Common sense and the almost universal public dismay in cases like this suggest the Patent system is not coping with recent software patents regardless of the specific details and safeguards of the system. It is breaking down not because of any lack of care or diligence on the part of any party involved, but simply because it can no longer work as intended.

I am not ignorant of this state of affairs, having been through two patent applications myself.

And I am not about to suggest any way in which it could be made to work better, because the fact is, it probably can't. I personally think the patent system is experiencing an paradigm shift issue. A little like what happened to canals when they invented the railway.

You need to perhaps step back and realise you might be defending the indefensible.
 
retarded

this is retarded. whoever granted the patent is retarded too. another example of people trying to make money of successful products.

countdown to leopard -- 1 year ?
countdown to longhorn -- ???
 
rdrr said:
Dude... Chill its all good. Let the system work it out and give your heart a break and not let these things get to you. You are a lawyer, and if you let a forum where rumors are tossed around like crack whores, then you will let the system eat you alive.

Digression: MacRumors is a home to me. /. too an extent too. I've been reading these sites for years and I totally understand that patents, software patents especially, have been playing a significant role in development and the computer industry over the last decade or so. I come to these places to relax, to read the latest rumors etc, and to occasionally contribute here and there.

On every site I go to these days, on just about any given day, there is a patent story. Everyone picks up their pitchforks and torches and announce that the patent system is horribly broken, all lawyers, patent attorneys in particular, are scum, how attorneys just do it all to get rich and screw over their clients, ad nauseum. If I let it get to me, my apologies. But it's gotten to the point where I can't read a damn thing anymore without someone making a comment like the one I replied to.

No one has an intellectual, objective discussion about this stuff. Do I really have to turn my back on these sites I've called home because no one will take the time to calm down and learning something before hitting reply?

I gotta say, I kinda understand how a Microsoft employee feels. It's pretty crappy.

</frustration>

For the record, not a lawyer yet. Halfway through school, been working in a patent firm the last 2 years.

And nothing I have said should be taken as legal advice. If you have a real legal question, contact an attorney. 99% of them will be happy to talk to you about this free of charge.

-p-
 
nagromme said:
Well, album art has been around as long as albums, and has been viewable on computers for years as well. As for the appearance... the shape is square because CDs ARE square. The position is NOT the same. The size is not either--unless you customize iTunes to MAKE it bigger like they have done. And the functionality? iTunes uses the lower portion of the Source list, and makes the height automatically fit the width of the list. You can click to view larger than that, drag-and-drop to edit, toggle between Selected vs. Playing art, or collapse the pane for a longer list above. None of which do I see in the patent mock-up.

I don't think you have the slightest clue as to what patents and patent lawsuits are for. ;)

Anyway, I think this guy might have a case as long as SoundJam didn't have "Browse view" like in iTunes (and if SoundJam did, then the case is invalid). Also, sorting in Column View is like in NEXTStep, which was obviously around before 1999. The only difference here is that they're sorting based on parameters related to music (ie: Artist, Genre, Band, etc), and not any old filetype. I'm sure they can't sue because of that.

Who wants to sort songs based on "Date Modified"??? :confused:
 
The quote posted overuses "embodiment". "Another embodiment . . ." etc. To me, this is the embodiment of bullstuff. As vague as this is, he should be suing Microshaft for their media player, and every other media player out there as well. But he's going for iTunes because he's simply in it for the money. Like Deep Throat supposedly said: follow the money.
 
mvc said:
The thing is, as if often the case with areas of obstruse expertise, it becomes possible to lose the path of common sense while defending logically each step on the road.
...
And I am not about to suggest any way in which it could be made to work better, because the fact is, it probably can't. I personally think the patent system is experiencing an paradigm shift issue. A little like what happened to canals when they invented the railway.

You need to perhaps step back and realise you might be defending the indefensible.

I don't totally agree with this, but I see your point. I think the public dismay is over what a patent represents: a monopoly on a way to solve a problem. When I was a software engineer not so long ago, reuse and sharing were more than encouraged, they were mandatory. Re-inventing the wheel made no sense and was a waste of time and resources. I think many many engineers feel this way, and rightfully so if their goals is to make good products fast.

The problem comes when this mentality, again not a bad one, meets up with patents. Patents are about hoarding ideas for the limited time you have. You have disclosed it to the public, true, but no one can solve the problem the way you did until your patent expires. Patents exclude others.

I think with the advent of the internet, informating sharing, and computer scientists/programmers impact on companies has increased beyond measure. Add to this that job mobility is much higher than even 30 years ago and the potential for sharing ideas and "the way we used to solve this was..." is higher still.

I think the patent system can and does work. It needs some adjustments, and they may be behind the curve in terms of when they were really due, but I don't think the system is indefensible.

Example: shorten the term for software patents. 20 years in the software world is an eternity. Give someone a monopoly for, say, 5-10 years. That gives them a headstart on the competition, gives the PTO time to grant/reject the patent (usually a 2-3 year process alone), and give the inventors a limited time in which to sue infringers.

I think it can be saved without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

-p-
 
Apple's got an interface patent already on iTunes

I remembered last year there were in the news of Apple got awarded with an iTunes interface patent, a quick search on Google proved me right, it was awarded on May 11, 2004... do a search "itunes interface patent" and you'll see what I mean, there are tons of reports...

actually, try this one to save you time: http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5210733.html

So, can some one explain to me how can a patent been sued by another patent, isn't a patent already means it's unique?
 
Card Catalogue Sues

Anyone remember the days of the card catalogue in the library?
Drawers full of cards that let you find books by looking up author, subject, or title? Because jee, that sounds a lot like sorting your music by artist, album, song name, genre, etc. If the guy who invented the card catalogue were still alive, he should sue.

This is just rediculous in my opinion. And the image that is posted shows a view of itunes that isn't even the default view, or the one that most people use.

What's funny to me is you don't see Coke and Pepsi suing over who put lime in their cola first.

Just greedy and rediculous.
 
psxndc said:
Software is no different. It depends on what you are claiming. If someone else's implementation is equivalent to yours, then they infringe. Black wire/Blue wire is the reason copyright isn't strong enough for software. If you name the variable foo and I name it bar, if I can prove I had never seen your code, even if I had through various third parties, no infringement since it is not a derivative work. All your design time and man hours down the drain.
-p-

But building software goes way beyond naming your variables. Surely, if someone copied the entire source code and just changed the variable names, there would be a copyright infringement. There are so many more attributes that go into the design of software. There is internal software architecture, memory organization methods, disk access methods, processor utilization methods, screen display methods, the logic and algorithms used. etc. I doubt very much that the internal design and logic within iTunes is anywhere close to the internal design of any other media player on the market.

For one thing, on the Windows platform, iTunes contains its own graphical rendering engine. It does not use the standard user-interface components that the Windows OS provides. This seems like it would be the equivalent of someone providing a different technology for the "light indicator" in the turn signal (e.g., one uses a filament bulb and the other uses halogen). iTunes has its own private algorithms for indexing and searching through your media collection. These algorithms are different than the ones that the Windows Media Player and Musicmatch use, for example, and it's what contributes to the differences in performance. I could go on and on.

Yes, I realize the patent in question does not cover these issues, but that is not my point. My point is that what software patents claim as "inventions" are nothing of the sort... they are just ideas. They do not provide anyone with the means to build them. To do so, you'd have to publish all of your algorithms and internal structure of the code. And, once you do that, I believe you have a work of art (just like a book), not something that is patentable.

I firmly believe that it was the lack of the legal profession's understanding of what software is and how it is built that has led to this mess. And, now that there are attorneys that have come from a software background, it seems like most are more interested in making a living by supporting the system rather than pointing out how insane it is.

Nothing personal... this subject always hits a nerve with me.
 
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