Paul Thurrott: Leopard Copied Vista!

[savar]

It's phrases like this that prevent me giving Paul Thurrott's ideas any respect:

only when you pony up $69.99 a year for the .Mac service (another nice annual cost that many Mac users gleefully pay).

The language is so unneccessarily loaded. I see stuff like this all the time when people bash Macs or bash Windows -- they make unreasonable generalizations about people that use those machines.

In another blog linked to from this thread, somebody tells a story about a mac user whining over not getting $8000 to buy a coworker a new G5. Besides being ludricously brief -- what were they buying for $8000? 3 quad-core Mac Pros? -- the point of the story is that macs are expensive and their users are rich, whiny, and arrogant.

Anecdotal evidence be damned. I use Solaris, Linux, Windows XP Pro, Win2000, and Mac OS X, and I use all of them nearly every day. They are all just tools, and I pick the right one for the job on a case-by-case basis. I wouldn't use a mac at work, because the integration issues would be a hassle. I also wouldn't try to run high-end data processing apps on WinXP, no more than I would use Unix to manage my photo and music libraries.

I just wish we could follow one simple rule: if you never averaged more than a few hours a week on any particular platform, then don't act like you know anything about it. Just because you used a mac a few times, or know somebody who owns one, or had somebody at work wanting to buy one -- none of those experiences qualifies to make comparisons.

Edit: Finished the article. Here are some more:

I get a lot of flak from the Mac community and no doubt this article will start another round of name-calling. (See how Apple's childish behavior rubs off on its fans?)

In the slice of time that is the second quarter of 2006, Apple gained--get this--about 1/10th of one percent of market share. And the WWDC crowd goes wild.

 

[savar]

None of the features presented this week were revolutionary and many of them are similar to features in Vista.

I think Core Animation is revolutionary. I don't know of any other framework like that that is so flexible and is built right into the operating system. I can't wait to see what developers do with it. It's really going to bring a lot of movement and dynamism to the user experience.

iChat looks pretty revolutionary too. I've never seen anything like that at a consumer level. If you buy an iMac next spring, you will have in one box everything required to video conference while giving a presentation, slideshow, or movie. Way ahead of everybody else as far as I can tell.

Some of the other things are merely evolutionary and/or playing catch-up, but I trust Steve Jobs when he says that they're keeping some things under wraps for the time being.

Apple does get carried away with themselves, though. While talking about "Spaces", nobody spoke the phrase "virtual desktop" once -- clearly trying to sell it as something fresh and brilliant. Honestly, though, it's just a great, clean implementation of an idea that's been around for a long time. The feature is great, but the hype is a little silly.

 

[iMeowbot]

Time Machine = VMS,

This part is really uncertain. The Time Machine description is rather ambiguous (is it only an incremental backup, or is there full versioning in there?) and I suspect that Apple left the description that way so that they aren't locked into implementation details too early.

VMS did of course have incremental backups as an option, but even back then it wasn't the only OS to do so. It did, however, have a nice replay facility so that you could rebuild filesystem contents between a full backup and the last desired incremental.

On versioning, the VMS implementation is rather different from the one being talked about in Time Machine speculation. It's for files opened for write, like texts or logs (random or indexed access doesn't normally force a new version), saves the entire previous versions and not fragments, and leaves them on the original drive, not on a backup volume. It is definitely not any sort of journaling system, which VMS briefly flirted with in the 1990s but ultimately didn't really adopt.

which has been used on Unix since forever, and which Microsoft merely picked up.

Ha. "Versioning good/versioning bad" was long one of the arguments in the Unix-VMS perpetual flamewar.

 

[DavidLeblond]

Blah. It's still a copy.

What kind of car do you drive? A Ford or a copycat? Ya know, since Ford built the first car everything else is just an imitation.

Sure others may have innovated. I'm not up on my automobile history, but A/C, ABS, cruise control... Ford didn't invent all of them, did they?

But you know what? Ford built the first car so anyone else who builds cars should just stop and we should all go back to driving Model Ts.

 

[hulugu]

...snip...

You're wrong about Konfabulator too.

What kind of car do you drive? A Ford or a copycat? Ya know, since Ford built the first car everything else is just an imitation.

Sure others may have innovated. I'm not up on my automobile history, but A/C, ABS, cruise control... Ford didn't invent all of them, did they?

But you know what? Ford built the first car so anyone else who builds cars should just stop and we should all go back to driving Model Ts.

There is a difference between Ford and Toyota both using ABS systems, and Toyota making a Toyota Colt, a coupe with a V8. Car companies company technology but also work hard to differentiate themselves, MS seems less interested in doing so, which is surprising really considering how much the company values, or at least pretends to value, innovation.

Microsoft has made some great technologies, but Vista does look like a version of Mac OSX and I'd hope they could push their own envelop.

 

[Lollypop]

There is a difference between Ford and Toyota both using ABS systems, and Toyota making a Toyota Colt, a coupe with a V8. Car companies company technology but also work hard to differentiate themselves, MS seems less interested in doing so, which is surprising really considering how much the company values, or at least pretends to value, innovation.

Microsoft has made some great technologies, but Vista does look like a version of Mac OSX and I'd hope they could push their own envelop.

I agree its all about differentiating, I use to use BeOS because of its blistering boot times, and its database like file system, I actually agree with Paul Thurrott a bit, Leopard hasnt really shown anything to really differentiate itself in the high level, while Core Animation promises a lot it will depend on how the developers use it, bling is cool but if the stars and animations of time thinggy is the best apple can do in improving a "old" feature then Leopard isnt going to get the thunder we all want for it.

 

[pknz]

God what a w***er.

 

[hulugu]

I agree its all about differentiating, I use to use BeOS because of its blistering boot times, and its database like file system, I actually agree with Paul Thurrott a bit, Leopard hasnt really shown anything to really differentiate itself in the high level, while Core Animation promises a lot it will depend on how the developers use it, bling is cool but if the stars and animations of time thinggy is the best apple can do in improving a "old" feature then Leopard isnt going to get the thunder we all want for it.

Well, remember we just saw a peek of the system and there were intonations that lower-level and yet very important stuff had been done to Leopard as well. I think this looks like a fantastic OS, building on the benefits of Tiger while adding new technologies and full 64-bit support.

I may have taken a big swig of kool-aid, but Leopard looks good and so does Leopard server and I'm very interested to know what Jobs didn't want to show.

 

[DeepIn2U]

Rebuilding file systems .... I remember seeing a feature like that in Apple's OS v7 ... you hit Option/+Command to invoke Just the core file system and you could select which component of the core or addons were available at the complete boot up. I know because I used this for 4 months on the Apple 3400CS.

> WinXP which I solely use day in & day out and troubleshoot dialy has NEVER, I repeat NEVER shipped with any virtual desktops NEVER! If it had it then its an add on NOT in any service pack or patches from M$. Its a 3rd party app implementation just like Expose/Dock copies available for WinXP that arent stable for day to day use or with service updates.

> Linux .. in my mind is an implementation of UNIX ... even Torvalds 1st book specifically states that he wanted UNIX (the licensed version to be recompiled from the ground up) for himself to use on his very first computer; ;then eventually grew for every1 else without a license. Linux has had virtual desktops but you couldnt move a launched/running app into any virtual desktop - at least in Kernel 2.4; maybe now in 2.6.

64bit of course UNIX, then Linux, then M$ then Apple in that order.

 

[Lollypop]

Well, remember we just saw a peek of the system and there were intonations that lower-level and yet very important stuff had been done to Leopard as well. I think this looks like a fantastic OS, building on the benefits of Tiger while adding new technologies and full 64-bit support.

I may have taken a big swig of kool-aid, but Leopard looks good and so does Leopard server and I'm very interested to know what Jobs didn't want to show.

I agree Leopard server looks extremely promissing. But unless apple does some real inovation with the client it will be mostly someone copying someone else... and while the computer industry is all about copying, someone needs to inovate, even if its inovating somethings thats already been done, thats always been apple... lets hope they can do it in the end.

 

[balamw]

I can't wait to see what developers do with it.

IMHO this is the most exciting thing about the Leopard preview.

Despite the nature and/or shortcomings of the features demonstrated at WWDC, they all have far more impact on devs than end-users. Appropriate since this was WWDC and not MWSF.

e.g. The thing that I found most interesting about Time Machine was that it worked within the apps, as demonstrated w/iPhoto and Address Book. This tight integration of an OS level feature in the apps with an API that is available to devs, seems to make Apple's implementation of what could be a rather pedestrian feature, far more appealing than the similar feature of any other unnamed OS.

B

 

[Timepass]

Rebuilding file systems .... I remember seeing a feature like that in Apple's OS v7 ... you hit Option/+Command to invoke Just the core file system and you could select which component of the core or addons were available at the complete boot up. I know because I used this for 4 months on the Apple 3400CS.

> WinXP which I solely use day in & day out and troubleshoot dialy has NEVER, I repeat NEVER shipped with any virtual desktops NEVER! If it had it then its an add on NOT in any service pack or patches from M$. Its a 3rd party app implementation just like Expose/Dock copies available for WinXP that arent stable for day to day use or with service updates.

> Linux .. in my mind is an implementation of UNIX ... even Torvalds 1st book specifically states that he wanted UNIX (the licensed version to be recompiled from the ground up) for himself to use on his very first computer; ;then eventually grew for every1 else without a license. Linux has had virtual desktops but you couldnt move a launched/running app into any virtual desktop - at least in Kernel 2.4; maybe now in 2.6.

64bit of course UNIX, then Linux, then M$ then Apple in that order.

go to m$ windows power toys page. You will find you virtual desktop sitting in there. M$ made it and it is out for download.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

 

[balamw]

go to m$ windows power toys page. You will find you virtual desktop sitting in there. M$ made it and it is out for download.
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx

The point is at your link:

Note: We take great care to ensure that PowerToys work as they should, but they are not part of Windows and are not supported by Microsoft. For this reason, Microsoft Technical Support is unable to answer questions about PowerToys. PowerToys are for Windows XP only.

B

 

[Timepass]

yet the other point is M$ has had that stuff out for a while VD was out by M$ for XP a VERY long time before it was out for OSX. it be about 6 years by the time OSX gets it.

So no matter how you cut it M$ had it out first and for a while. If they put it in vista you cannt call it copying. Most it is them taking a power toy and moving it over to their OS.

Space look a lot like that power toy for some odd reason. So yeah apple being called a copy cat on that point is fair game.

 

[DavidLeblond]

yet the other point is M$ has had that stuff out for a while VD was out by M$ for XP a VERY long time before it was out for OSX. it be about 6 years by the time OSX gets it.

So no matter how you cut it M$ had it out first and for a while. If they put it in vista you cannt call it copying. Most it is them taking a power toy and moving it over to their OS.

Space look a lot like that power toy for some odd reason. So yeah apple being called a copy cat on that point is fair game.

How? You can't see all of the desktops on the MS power toy at once, you can't move apps between the desktops, you can't specify which apps go with which desktops on the MS Powertoy, and you can only use 4 desktops on the MS powertoy.

Apple actually put some innovation into their version of virtual desktops, MS just straight copied it from Unix. They put so little thought into it, that they didn't even finish it! (its buggy as hell)

Apple didn't "copy." If they "copied" then they'd pull a MS and just have a straight Virtual Desktop implementation. Instead they rethought it, and reengineered it. Bravo!


EDIT: I pull my point about not being able to preview the desktops on the powertoy, apparently in the latest version you can. Although its VERY crude.

 

[DavidLeblond]

For comparison sakes, here is what the MS powertoy looks like.

 

[Timepass]

umm yes you CAN see all desktops at one time. One of the 5 little buttons it puts on your task bar puts all 4 desktops up at one time.

Also I find it kind of comical when M$ remotely copies apple. Everyone refuse to believe the idea came from some where else or they where just taking something else and modify it. Yet when apple does it people make up excuse that it is not copying for reason X or Y.

The reason apple getting this flack is their behaveior at WWDC. Trashing M$ left and right. When you do that you better have all your facts straight and then when you prev your new OS you better be sure than none of you "Big features" are remote copies or can be view as a copy from the OS you are trashing. Guess what apple did. Both it big features look a lot like copies from M$. Now if apple had behaved and not trashed M$ none of this would be an issue but they didnt. They acted like bunch of little kids and polititions (no way I think politiction act better). So yeah apple screwed up. Their 2 big feature look a lot like copies from M$ and this is after they trashed M$ left and right at WWDC. Not a smart move by apple.

 

[DavidLeblond]

The reason apple getting this flack is their behaveior at WWDC. Trashing M$ left and right. When you do that you better have all your facts straight and then when you prev your new OS you better be sure than none of you "Big features" are remote copies or can be view as a copy from the OS you are trashing. Guess what apple did. Both it big features look a lot like copies from M$. Now if apple had behaved and not trashed M$ none of this would be an issue but they didnt. They acted like bunch of little kids and polititions (no way I think politiction act better). So yeah apple screwed up. Their 2 big feature look a lot like copies from M$ and this is after they trashed M$ left and right at WWDC. Not a smart move by apple.

#1 as I've said many times, copying something implies that you do not bring any new features to the table.

#2 How in the hell did they copy MS? I hope by 2 features you didn't mean Time Machine and Spaces, because Time Machine != previous versions in Vista (which MS didn't invent anyway) and Spaces would be closer to a copy of Unix's virtual desktops than some throw-away Virtual Desktop clone that MS whipped together in a day and forgot about.

And for all this "Oh, Microsoft thought of Search first" garbage... it was in BeOS before Microsoft did Windows Search... in fact I do believe it was implemented at Apple by the same BeOS programmer.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

My favorite part of the article:

I'm no Microsoft cheerleader (sorry, it's true)

But he's right actually. Being a cheerleader implies freedom of thought, whereas Paul is more of a slave, drone or thrall.

 

[Timepass]

#1 as I've said many times, copying something implies that you do not bring any new features to the table.

#2 How in the hell did they copy MS? I hope by 2 features you didn't mean Time Machine and Spaces, because Time Machine != previous versions in Vista (which MS didn't invent anyway) and Spaces would be closer to a copy of Unix's virtual desktops than some throw-away Virtual Desktop clone that MS whipped together in a day and forgot about.

And for all this "Oh, Microsoft thought of Search first" garbage... it was in BeOS before Microsoft did Windows Search... in fact I do believe it was implemented at Apple by the same BeOS programmer.

read my post again. It answer the question on it. You DONT TRASH comp. and then turn around and show off you new features that can easily look like they been copied off of them (doest matter if it the turth or not. Apple 2 biggest features look a lot like copies on the surface and at a quick glance)

 

[DavidLeblond]

read my post again. It answer the question on it. You DONT TRASH comp. and then turn around and show off you new features that can easily look like they been copied off of them (doest matter if it the turth or not. Apple 2 biggest features look a lot like copies on the surface and at a quick glance)

MS has not taken any feature (other than the before mentioned ClearType) and reengineered it to make it better. They simply copy. They even put the friggin icons in the same place. I think they deserve to be poked fun at.

The WWDC is a DEVELOPERS conference. Why wouldn't they bash the competition? Bashing the competition raises the morale of the devs. Developing for the Mac is a risky business, seeing how the marketshare is so low. You want to let the devs know they've picked "the right platform."