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CanadaRAM said:
[RANT]What a load of @#%&. That is a lame rationalization and mostly false. Many recording acts lose money on touring in support of a CD. Big money merchandising and $75 stadium tickets apply only to the biggest acts. The mid-level band playing for $10 -$20 ticket in your local club or hockey arena counts on $200 worth of T-Shirt sales to pay the gas to get to the next gig tomorrow night 200 miles away. Touring is expensive, hard, soul-destroying and family-breaking work, and only seldom profitable. Ask almost any recording musician and they will tell you they would choose writing and recording over touring any day.
I think you're discounting the entire middle ground between a Madonna or U2 concert versus a group of guys who play the bar circuit.

It's fairly common knowledge that the profit side of the music industry comes from ticket sales and non-album merchandising.

A band that's "touring" for $10 cover at bars isn't in the same "music industry". It's kind of like comparing MLB players to kids playing baseball on a playground.

Get this: It is the artist's choice and to the artist's benefit to have the record company take the risk and receive the income.

The artist in return gets the security of whatever deal they made. The artists sells some of their rights to the record company in exchange for the company taking on the risk. The record companies lose money on roughly 9 out of 10 recordings, and make up for it on the big hits. You can argue that the recoupability built into the recording contracts means that the artist is ultimately stuck with the bills, but that goes right back to the central truth: "avoid" paying the record company their legally-entitled roylaties, and you hurt the artist.

The artists who do not want to enter into a contract with the record company don't, simple as that. They have the option of going the indie route, as many have, or self-publishing and running their own company, the best example being Ani DeFranco. But that is a hell of a lot of work and risk, and 99 pecent of artists do not have the financial capital, the knowledge, or the time to market their product nationwide.
That's a bit disingenuous.

The RIAA (or global variants thereof) are really just their own monopolies. While there's a "choice" for the artist, the choice isn't very realistic.

Yes, you could refuse to sign. And it would mean the difference between your album being in every big box store in the country, versus you selling your album out of your trunk in the local Wal-Mart parking lot.

Ani DiFranco is an exception, rather than the rule. And it's only through years and years of word of mouth that she really gained notice from the mainstream. In business terms, compare her with Tori Amos. By and large, their audience is similar... but you can't tell me that more people recognize Ani DiFranco than Tori Amos. And you can't tell me that by virtue, Best Buy / Target / Wal-Mart / etc. is going to stock literally hundreds per-store of whatever Tori decides to release, versus five or ten copies of Ani's new release (if that).

Signing with a label gives you more than advertising and promotion. It gives you access to shelf space. Short of being someone as recognizable and well-recieved as Ani DiFranco... you can't walk in to Best Buy's corporate office and say "Hi, my name's Joe. I'm in a band called Sonic Death Monkey. We're really good, so can I sign you up for a few thousand copies to sell at your stores?". At least... not without expecting them to laugh you out the door.

The record companies are there because the artists need them, and choose to partner with them.
The record companies are there because of decades worth of payola, conglomeration with radio and television stations, and monopolistic practices. There's no alternative that's as viable, and implying that there is is nothing less than delusional.

The more piracy goes on, the less money there is for the artists, and there are fewer recording contracts that get offered - this is well documented. You want a world where there is only surefire, middle of the trend, manufactured pop? Then keep on with what you are doing because the only remaining acts that will get financed are the ones with the 100% guaranteed profit, widest radio play and mechandising tie-ins with movies, Mattel and McDonalds.
You can't seriously believe this.

What you're describing has been going on well before people were pirating music en masse. This terrible future you're predicting has already happened. It happened decades ago.

And quit with the "all that money goes to the RIAA" &[]//$#!^. The RIAA is an industry lobby group, just like any other trade association. You may as well say "I'm not going to pay my doctor's bill because it all goes to the College of Physicians and Surgeons (in the USA, the AMA) anyway, and none of it goes to the person who gave me the service."
The RIAA is far closer to the MPAA and SIIA/SPA than the AMA or similar trade organizations.

The RIAA/MPAA/SPA are the only trade organizations that exist largely to sue their own customers. Most trade organizations exist (on some level) to prevent their members from being sued. There's a very substantial difference there.

Bottom line and back to topic: Dropping the royalty rate from 40 cents to 0 - 5 cents per song is equivalent to telling the artist they have to work for $1 an hour. ChipNoVa says that the price should fall to where there is mass market appeal. Yeah, we have seen this with consumer goods already. Which is why there are no jobs manufacturing running shoes or computers in North America, they are all made where workers will take (or have no choice but to take) $1 an hour or less. You want this for your music too?
Your analogies don't hold water.

Like it or not... moral or not... people are downloading music. Since it isn't a tangible product, a better analogy would be "...is equivalent to telling the artist they can have $1 an hour, or $0 an hour."

Consumer goods like running shoes are tangible. If I'm Nike, I know that I need X number of shoes that cost $Y to produce and net $Z in profit. If I'm a consumer, I know that those Nike shoes cost $89 at every store and that I can take them at that price, or not have them. I may really like the side of the shoes, but not the tongue or sole... but the shoes can't be broken in to pieces that I can do anything useful with.

Music just isn't the same, and the customers are proving that. If I'm A&M Records, I know that I want to sell X Vanessa Carlton albums. Beyond that, there's no Y or Z as with the shoes. The album has 14 pieces, some people may want all 14, some may only want 1. Because I want to make $Z in profit, I'm going to sell them all as one package for $18... take it or leave it.

The consumers are starting to answer with "Fine, I'll leave it.". Unlike shoes or other consumer goods, people can want pieces of the finished product without wanting the whole. Because they're profit-driven, the record companies have all but eliminated the sale of singles. So as a consumer, I may really like one song on an album, and it may be worth a certain amount of money to me. But as it stands, my options are either: 1) pay $18 and hope the remaining 92% of the album is as good or 2) pay nothing, get the one song I wanted in the first place, and contemplate how the artist theoretically lost about $0.23 that I would have gladly paid if I was offered a product I wanted. And then contemplate further that the artist lost nothing, because I never would have bought the album, and could just as easily have waited for the song to get played on the radio again and recorded that to a CD so I could listen to it when I wanted (which is perfectly legal).

Pandora's metaphoric box has already been opened. Scads of RIAA lawsuits may slow things down temporarily, but the end result is that they're going to spawn more and more sophisticated P2P networks until they're so well spoofed and encrypted that it will be nearly impossible for them to discern who is downloading what.

Just imagine in the next decade, with greater broadband penetration, fiber connections to consumers, free public wi-fi (all things that are in process as I type this). We're talking about even more people who can download and upload songs faster than they can listen to them. And at the same time, we're talking about people having computers powerful enough to do encryption on the fly (let's be realistic... just about any computer you can buy off the shelf today is more than capable of it). Not to mention greater backlash from anti-RIAA zealots, who will invariably start setting up off-shore anonymizers, and similar services.

The future is way too close for the record companies to continue on their current path. Their business model is failing, and they're not adapting. So the tables are turning. Sooner than later, it'll be the consumer who is saying "I'll pay $0.05 for that song. Take it or leave it."

If they don't adapt, they'll fail. It's as simple as that. And if they fail, it opens the doors wide for new music, unsigned artists, and more. If the people (read: the consumers) are already getting their music online instead of from the radio or MTV (and the numbers seem to support that's what's happening already), the marketing, promotion, and other services major labels provide will become less relevant.

Who cares that Columbia got Jessica Simpson airplay on 240 stations and that her new video is on MTV and VH1, when the brunt of those listeners have abandoned the radio and TV in favor of podcasting, or streaming media?
 
A combination of 5 cent downloads and aggressive RIAA lawsuits will deter all but the most determined music pirate. This is the one-two punch necessary to curb the rampant piracy we see today. Most consumers are now very well-informed about the abuses of the record industry.
 
tveric said:
People saw record companies charging $17 for a CD that costs .10 in material costs, and they said, you know what? I don't need the CD for $17, I'll download it for FREE... So artists won't be millionaires anymore for making their music, and neither will record company execs. Too bad!

Great. I'd like you to build a brick wall for me. It will take you a week, but the material cost is only $22 for the bricks and mortar, so I'll give you $22 when you're done the job.

Don't like that, huh?

But you're quite willing to discount the artists creativity, talent and work to zero.

Do you steal Macs, too, just because Steve is worth $3B and doesnt deserve any more than that?
 
Twinkie said:
Yes, you could refuse to sign. And it would mean the difference between your album being in every big box store in the country, versus you selling your album out of your trunk in the local Wal-Mart parking lot.

Ani DiFranco is an exception, rather than the rule. And it's only through years and years of word of mouth that she really gained notice from the mainstream. In business terms, compare her with Tori Amos. By and large, their audience is similar... but you can't tell me that more people recognize Ani DiFranco than Tori Amos. And you can't tell me that by virtue, Best Buy / Target / Wal-Mart / etc. is going to stock literally hundreds per-store of whatever Tori decides to release, versus five or ten copies of Ani's new release (if that).

Signing with a label gives you more than advertising and promotion. It gives you access to shelf space.

You make my point exactly.

Record companies exist to mass-market music, which the artists generally cannot do on their own. And many artists want to go the mass-market sales route.

As much as you want to paint the industry as being one monilithic RIAA entity, there is no monopoly, there are many competing record companies large and small, different distribution arrangements, and a wide range of contracts are negotiated, including residuals on units sold for the artist.

But by advocating downloadable tunes at 1/20th of the current rate, or tolerating "free" (stolen) music distribution, you are eliminating all of the money that is required to pay songwriters, engineers, studios, musicians, as well as the artists and the record companies that you would like to see denied income.

The costs that are saved in electronic distribution are the physical production costs of the CD, jacket & sleeve, and distribution/return expenses. Ther retailer's profit may be reduced in as much as online sellers are willing to take a smaller margin. All the other costs of writing, recording and bringing to market a recording remain in place. They do not go away just because the delivery is INternet rather than physical CD.
 
CanadaRAM said:
You make my point exactly.

Record companies exist to mass-market music, which the artists generally cannot do on their own. And many artists want to go the mass-market sales route.

As much as you want to paint the industry as being one monilithic RIAA entity, there is no monopoly, there are many competing record companies large and small, different distribution arrangements, and a wide range of contracts are negotiated, including residuals on units sold for the artist.
But the point is that the distribution channels are the same, and the media outlets are the same.

While they're separate entities in theory, in practice, the differences are really just on paper. Vivendi/Universal doesn't send a separate sales rep to Best Buy from RCA. By and large, they both use the same distribution and sales people. When you get more granular with smaller labels... sure, there's some distinction there. But when you consider the shelf or floor space a new Capitol artist would get versus a new Drive Thru artist, the differences are like night and day.

Think about it. The antitrust suit over CD price fixing wasn't filed against just one or two record companies.

And while taking shots at Clear Channel and their involvement in the industry is about as trite as taking shots at Microsoft... if the shoe fits...

But by advocating downloadable tunes at 1/20th of the current rate, or tolerating "free" (stolen) music distribution, you are eliminating all of the money that is required to pay songwriters, engineers, studios, musicians, as well as the artists and the record companies that you would like to see denied income.
I suppose my contention with this assertion is that it assumes everybody is in it for money.

Trust me. There are bands at any bar on any given weekend who would kill just to have national exposure. Are they as good as what you'd buy off the New Releases shelf at Borders? Meh... probably not so much. But would those New Releases be as good without the sweetening that studios, engineers, and bands-for-hire engender? Doubtful, more often than not.

I guess it's difficult to see where you're coming from here. On one hand, you're railing against the status quo of top-selling pop fluff. On the other, you're suggesting it would be a bad thing if pop schlock isn't available to the masses.

The costs that are saved in electronic distribution are the physical production costs of the CD, jacket & sleeve, and distribution/return expenses. Ther retailer's profit may be reduced in as much as online sellers are willing to take a smaller margin. All the other costs of writing, recording and bringing to market a recording remain in place. They do not go away just because the delivery is INternet rather than physical CD.
Well... yes, and no. Retailers often take a loss on CD's just to get bodies in their stores.

Many of the costs remain the same, however, the biggest costs (namely: promotion) become incidental. It's common knowledge that getting someone to click on something online is a thousand times easier than getting someone to get up from their computer and buy something in a store.

A lot of the money used to promote an album wouldn't be necessary if its primary distribution was online.

In your previous post, you used Ani DiFranco as an example of bucking the system. I guess I'd respond back with DJ Danger Mouse's "The Grey Album".
 
CanadaRAM said:
Great. I'd like you to build a brick wall for me. It will take you a week, but the material cost is only $22 for the bricks and mortar, so I'll give you $22 when you're done the job.

Don't like that, huh?

But you're quite willing to discount the artists creativity, talent and work to zero.
If he desperately wants people to see how great he is at building walls, and the wall would be in a prominent place, I'm sure he'd do it for $22.

More accurately, if he desperately wants to build walls, and is darn good at building walls, and the wall-building industry is designed to keep him from building walls because he's not sexy / young / edgy enough for their tastes, he probably would appreciate the opportunity to build one for you.

Do you steal Macs, too, just because Steve is worth $3B and doesnt deserve any more than that?
You're comparing Apples and oranges (ahem) ;)

If you just want a Mac Mini, Apple doesn't force you to take (and pay for) an iSight, iPod, iWork, and printer to go along with it.

If you walk in to an Apple Store and steal a Mini, there's going to be a tangible loss. If you just wanted to use iMovie and had no intention of ever buying a Mac, then borrowed a friend's Mac to use it, Apple wouldn't notice the loss.
 
Hard to Believe...

I don't see how this could get done. The record companies wouldn't be making any money. Great idea though. Would definately increase the legal selling of music online.
 
CanadaRAM said:
Great. I'd like you to build a brick wall for me. It will take you a week, but the material cost is only $22 for the bricks and mortar, so I'll give you $22 when you're done the job.

Don't like that, huh?

But you're quite willing to discount the artists creativity, talent and work to zero.

Do you steal Macs, too, just because Steve is worth $3B and doesnt deserve any more than that?

I think even YOU know how bizzarely inaccurate your analogy is, and anyway, another guy just refuted it better than I could have.

That being said, I don't discount the artists creativity and work to zero - I'm willing to go to their shows (something I do quite a bit, by the way) - and I'm happy to buy CDs from the artists that I actually WANT to own the CDs of. But if I want to download "Stand Up" for free from Ludacris
, guess what, I'm not paying a dollar for that song. Why? Simply because I don't have to. It's the new world order, baby, get used to it. I would bet you that most rabid downloaders like myself buy more CDs than you do anyway; we're just choosy about which ones we actually buy, and the rest we download for free. Because the Internet and mp3s and iPods has made that possible, easy, and the most sensible method for listening to what we want to listen to, when we want to.

And stop shilling for the record companies. Just because you're buying 100% of the music you listen to doesn't mean the rest of us have to. And no, downloading won't be the end of good music. As I said before, maybe it might even cull the worthless pop Top 40 hype-machine crap out, and leave us with artists that truly do it for their art, and not the money. I'll still go to their shows, and they make the best music anyway.
 
Oh wow, I would definitely discontinue usage of P2P for music that I could purchase for 5 cents a pop. Really that just ends up being a convenience charge to me, better then sitting through Limewire attempting to pick a full CD out of inappropriately tagged music.
 
HAViK said:
Oh wow, I would definitely discontinue usage of P2P for music that I could purchase for 5 cents a pop. Really that just ends up being a convenience charge to me, better then sitting through Limewire attempting to pick a full CD out of inappropriately tagged music.

You've summed it up better than anyone. People will pay what a song is worth, and because of the availability of P2P, and low risk of getting sued, a downloaded version of a song just isn't worth .99 in the current market (CDs are different stories, by the way). Sure, some people pay it, but some people always overpay for stuff - the sales numbers, although in the hundreds of millions, are still dwarfed by the P2P numbers.

Now, drop that price to .05 per song, and suddenly it's the P2P services that become useless! Unorganized, getting different volume levels on songs from the same CD, bad tags and all that, it would just be too annoying and time-consuming to continue using P2P with .05 downloads available, especially if the .05 downloads are organized as well as the iTMS (let's face it, that store is awesome).

But yet again, I point out that although it SHOULD happen, it will never happen, because the record companies don't deal in reality. They're ensuring their own doom eventually on this path, but I'm sort of happy about that too. Maybe indie labels will come to Apple and others after that and sell the songs at the true market value.
 
HAViK said:
Oh wow, I would definitely discontinue usage of P2P for music that I could purchase for 5 cents a pop. Really that just ends up being a convenience charge to me, better then sitting through Limewire attempting to pick a full CD out of inappropriately tagged music.

I agree completely. 5 cents a track is well worth it for the convenience and reliable quality. At those prices people would be much more willing to try out new artists as well, and purchase their music as downloads. As it is, many only go online to grab the hottest or best known songs, because they dont wanna dole out the money for tracks that may turn out to not be worth it in the end...
 
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