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PC VS MAC speed test- The mac lost!

i think "we" have lost our speed advantage already. certainly in things that aren't altivec enhanced and/or multi processor aware.

however, if one accounts for crash/troubleshooting time, the speed is not a problem.

i don't think anyone's in big doo doo if apple doesn't release 1.4 ghz. then again, i'd love to see it. and soon.
 
Re: PC VS MAC speed test- The mac lost!

Originally posted by Macmaniac
You might want to read this http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/2002/07_jul/features/cw_macvspc2.htm
Apple better release 1.4ghz in august or we are in big doo doo.
MWSF might be a good time for the G5 hint hint;) ;)

I don't know really what to say, if this is true then it looks like we have lost our speed advantage.
Help me regain faith!
Click to expand...

Duh...Macs are, overall, slower than a fast PC. Once we get fast enough ram to feed our processors properly that situation may change. The G5 will definitely fix this, but I'm expecting an interim fix for the G4 (late August is my guess). 1.4GHz would do almost nothing without faster ram.
 
I must say, it's time Apple went ahead of 533mhz front side bus..and leave behind that SDRAM and get moving at least to DDR

Im a /switcher and I love the ease and free flow a mac brings to the table.

THat is what sets Macs apart.

I'm sure APple is cooking something very nice. And it should be coming soon.
 
Where have you been Macmaniac?

Apple lost the edge in CPU power AGES ago and then they lost the powerusers AGES ago, and you just getting wind of it!

WHy do you think APPLE went and asked Video editors what they want from a system.

I think that they answered " Something better then crappy antique, I mean where the hell is DDRam, oh yea, its in my DELL"

APPLE stepped in DOO DOO , AGES ago!

They are chasing the LAMEsumer now.
With iAPPZ galore and the lure of a simplified OS.

Most Prosumers love to tweak their Wintel boxes, I hate it, but there are others that swear by the process, a lot of others!
 
From all the benchmarks of G4s vs Athlons over the years, photoshop, Bryce and other non realtime applications seem to have always put a G4 on a par with an Athlon, regardless of what memory bandwidth each system had.

What I mean by this is, Mhz for Mhz speed, a 1Ghz G4 should match a 1Ghz Athlon because a 1.4Ghz Athlon is 40% faster than 1Ghz G4.

Add more cache and faster RAM to the G4 and maybe a 1.4Ghz G4 could compete with a 1.533Ghz or 1.6Ghz Athlon on a totally level playing field, regardless of dual CPUs or Altivec.

For example, judging by the barefeats photoshop scores and going off the results of the 933Mhz model so as to eliminate multiprocessor enhanced code from the equation, a 1.4Ghz Athlon with 266Mhz DDR is exactly 1.5 times the speed of the 933Mhz G4 or put it another way, a 1.4Ghz G4 would match the Athlon.

The bryce results that are neither dual CPU or Altivec aware also point to the G4 matching the Athlon if the clock speeds are equal aswell.

What this means is basically for overall performance the G4 could catch up in a big way with just the jump from 1Ghz to 1.4Ghz, add the DDR and improved cache scheme and it might catch up even further.
 
Looks like it's time for the quad. Everyone wants it, and Moto isn't delivering any 2ghz g4/g5 anytime soon.

A quad g4 at 1.4 ghz would soundly beat today's high-end wintel offerings.

One question though--do you have to have software specifically written for quad processors for there to be any effect?
 
That's all well and good, but that fact still remains that the only way Apple is able to even stay in the game is by using dual processors. Apple won't be able to hold its own, and I've said this more than enough before, until they have a single CPU that can go head to head with anything from Intel or AMD. We'll be playing catch up for a while - even when we have the G5 it might not be enough, especially if we have to wait months down the road...

D
 
Well of course the Mac lost. The dual 1ghz is only comparable up to a 2.2ghz p4. Remember that article on cnet? At least I think it was cnet...:eek: This is against a 2.53ghz p4 and a dual AMD 2000+ which is 1.7ghz. That is far too fast for the dual 1ghz Mac to contend with. This probably would be fixed by at least upping the mhz by at least .2ghz and adding ddr ram. A faster bus would help to:rolleyes: That's all we need! :D

-MacMaster
 
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
i think "we" have lost our speed advantage already. certainly in things that aren't altivec enhanced and/or multi processor aware.

however, if one accounts for crash/troubleshooting time, the speed is not a problem.

i don't think anyone's in big doo doo if apple doesn't release 1.4 ghz. then again, i'd love to see it. and soon.
Click to expand...

<opinion>but that's the problem i think. nothing is altivec enhanced anymore. the software developers seem to be having a hard enough time giving us Carbonised versions of everything, they don't even bother with altivec anymore. and when we finally get them they are buggy as hell. the Adobe line for OSX is so bug-infested it's insane(Illustrator10 is the WORST). i've got some of the very few audio apps that are OSX ready(the audio stuff is taking a VERY long time because of the wait for Jaguar)and although they seem to be pretty stable, they do not take advantage of altivec and in a few cases the developers have said that they have no plans of doing it in the future, even though the OS9 versions were. i'm a Logic Audio user and i can't wait for the X version but i have a real hunch that it will not be altivec enhanced like the OS9 version was. it will probably be another Carbon piece of crapware like everything else we have been seeing lately. think how bad it was in OS9 just waiting those few extra months for a certain game or app to get ported to the Mac. now Apple has a whole new operating system. they expect the software companies to not only put out an app for 3% of the market share, on a completely new OS, AND write it so it takes advantage of stupid old AltiVec? Please. it would be great but they don't even bother anymore. and most of them probably don't have the time or resources. for software companies to develop OSX AltiVec aware apps would be a waste of time and money for them. Mac users make up such a tiny portion of the customer base it's not even worth it to them. as a retail example, look at a store like Babbages, for instance. they decided over a year ago to not even bother carrying Mac software at all anymore. to them it's not even worth the couple extra bucks they would get from Mac customers. they'd rather not waste the shelf space. i think that's how a lot of software companies feel about the Mac and AltiVec.</opinion>
 
response to tjwett.

sure, you're right on... but that is the software developers fault (for the most part) and not apple's. of course, if apple were to have faster chips which wouldn't rely on altivec, then this would be "solved"... but as it is, i've had no major problems with apps... granted, i don't run combustion, smoke, etc.. but i do run photoshop, fcp, dvdsp, after effects, etc. and i'm not seeing the big problem.

but yes, of course, it'd be great if software co's got off their arses and made altivec enhanced, cocoa apps. but that can only be controlled so much by apple.

word up.
 
They're also comparing an SDRAM Macs to P4s and Athlons running RDRAM and DDR.

For those large files that fit in memory and are way to big for the cache, the Mac is already handicapped - the other machines IO alone is at least twice as fast. And it's getting real hard to find SDRAM in PCs right now, except in some of the bargain machines.

Would have been interesting to see the XServe comparison to see how much the DDR memory alone affects the head-to-head results.

Amazing to see that the Dual processor PC really doesn't stomp the single processor machine, almost seems like theres something wrong there. ;)
 
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
response to tjwett.

sure, you're right on... but that is the software developers fault (for the most part) and not apple's. of course, if apple were to have faster chips which wouldn't rely on altivec, then this would be "solved"... but as it is, i've had no major problems with apps... granted, i don't run combustion, smoke, etc.. but i do run photoshop, fcp, dvdsp, after effects, etc. and i'm not seeing the big problem.

but yes, of course, it'd be great if software co's got off their arses and made altivec enhanced, cocoa apps. but that can only be controlled so much by apple.

word up.
Click to expand...

<opinion>i agree with you but the only people that feel the effect of all of this is us, the consumers, and eventually Apple, as people realise the fancy velocity engine they invested in by buying a G4 is just a "paperweight". since the birth of OSX, the G4 is almost totally useless outside the OS and in the real world apps. i understand that Apple can't put pressure on big software companies. there are just too many. and for alot of apps, like games, Apple doesn't even have the power to threaten to pull the plug. their response to Apple would most likely be "go ahead, we don't make any money off you anyway". i think it's Apple's duty, to a degree, to make these machines perform the best they can. and not just in scientific benchmarks. in everyday, real world computing. if that means they need to ditch AltiVec and change chips then i think that's what they should do. they should do EVERYTHING in their power to make these machines competitive in performance, with minimal fuss for software developers. because trying to get developers to "switch" their ways for such a tiny market is not realistic and would never happen. </opinion> jello, hopefully this rain will finally come and cool things off here in NYC. today was just NASTY.
 
tj:

i must admit, your comments in that other thread (some of them) got me to think you were just being a jerk, but now that we've had a reasonable discussion, i see that you were just fired up, understandably...

i agree they need to do something. but, who is to say they aren't? i mean, that is hopeful thinking of course, but with the software acquisitions, they have to know that they need better hardware, and not just 1.2 ghz g4 with sdram... the thing is, such a change will take some time. i'd say, if we don't see something big in the next few months up to mwsf, then it's been too long... but i'm willing to be patient for a bit longer

as for nyc, ahhh, i'm actually home in pa now. nyc just for school... but yeah, it was hot as crap here today. however, the rain did come, so it might hit you guys.... actually, it came just in time to ruin my chances of getting in 18 holes of golf.... uggh.
 
Slower and steadier

From what I've seen, I would not expect Mac desktops to be the fastest at video editing. Adobe has found it much easier to use SSE2 on Pentiums and Athlons that AltiVec on G4s. If the compilers for Mac OS X did automatic vectorization, this wouldn't be as big an issue. There would still be some setup for the developer though.

I would like to see a test of laptop computers...PowerBook 800 MHz vs. Pentium 4 1.7 GHz or whatever. I think it would at least be more interesting. From what I've read, more people like using Final Cut Pro and since it's able to maximize the PowerBook...
 
WTF???...

...what makes you guys think that nothing uses Altivec? In OSX all programs use Altivec. The APIs are altivec aware (Quartz, for example, uses it extensively), so any program that uses them automatically gets some benefit. Basically, as far as I can tell, you're saying "I think it's too slow, so Altivec must not be doing anything". For something like a game, or a movie, or anything else that requires moving a lot of data around, the Mac is going to lose. Its memory is, at best, half as fast. At worst it's 1/4 as fast. The fact that it manages to get anywhere close to keeping up is almost entirely due to Altivec and good use of cache.
 
Originally posted by Grokgod
They are chasing the LAMEsumer now.
With iAPPZ galore and the lure of a simplified OS.

Most Prosumers love to tweak their Wintel boxes, I hate it, but there are others that swear by the process, a lot of others!
Click to expand...

However, I would consider video editors prosumers and Apple's market share is growing rapidly (I think it's somewhere around 50% right now) in this niche market. Why? Software. CinemaTools, Final Cut Pro and DVD Studio Pro are all excellent Apps that work the way they are supposed to. Now with Avid and Maya have migrated to (the rock solid) OS X I would argue their market share will continue to grow. It is not all about hardware, and even though I'd love for Apple to crank up their hardware, I do not agree that Apple is merely "chasing the LAMEsumer." Just my 2 cents,

Bill
 
Originally posted by jelloshotsrule
tj:

i must admit, your comments in that other thread (some of them) got me to think you were just being a jerk, but now that we've had a reasonable discussion, i see that you were just fired up, understandably...

i agree they need to do something. but, who is to say they aren't? i mean, that is hopeful thinking of course, but with the software acquisitions, they have to know that they need better hardware, and not just 1.2 ghz g4 with sdram... the thing is, such a change will take some time. i'd say, if we don't see something big in the next few months up to mwsf, then it's been too long... but i'm willing to be patient for a bit longer

as for nyc, ahhh, i'm actually home in pa now. nyc just for school... but yeah, it was hot as crap here today. however, the rain did come, so it might hit you guys.... actually, it came just in time to ruin my chances of getting in 18 holes of golf.... uggh.
Click to expand...

lol! i know, i was getting a few people really annoyed. you're right though, i was just initially fumed and if you notice my posts became mellower towards the end. i really don't want to ditch the Mac as an OS and working planform. after some good advice from some others i think i'll try a few things. someone suggested setting up a little rendering cluster with the Wintels, which would still allow me to work in the Mac environment while the PCs crunched the numbers. if i can make that happen i'll be psyched and it will get me by until the G5 ; ) thanks for the positive feedback and try to keep cool in this heat. we just got a little rain and it already feels better. cheers.
 
Re: WTF???...

Originally posted by Catfish_Man
...what makes you guys think that nothing uses Altivec? In OSX all programs use Altivec. The APIs are altivec aware (Quartz, for example, uses it extensively), so any program that uses them automatically gets some benefit. Basically, as far as I can tell, you're saying "I think it's too slow, so Altivec must not be doing anything". For something like a game, or a movie, or anything else that requires moving a lot of data around, the Mac is going to lose. Its memory is, at best, half as fast. At worst it's 1/4 as fast. The fact that it manages to get anywhere close to keeping up is almost entirely due to Altivec and good use of cache.
Click to expand...

maybe i just don't understand. i know alot of the OS's functions use AltiVec so it makes sense that any running app is being touched by it. but correct me if i'm wrong, wasn't it very different in OS9? i mean wasn't AltiVec capability something that was actually embeded in the app and if you had a G4 it would recognize it and kick into gear? would the OSX apps get the same type of advantage just by running in OSX? from what i can see just with my own use, when i run an AltiVec enabled app it performs better in OS9 on the same machine. most likely these are Carbonized and not Cocoa so could that be part of it? Also, is it even possible for Cocoa or Carbonized apps to use the Velocity Engine in the same way as OS9? Obviously they are two different OSs but i just mean having AltiVec as a part of the app that only a G4 would recognize. like i said earlier? am i making any sense? i don't know enough about chips and super tech stuff to put it into proper words.
 
In answer to JELLO's posting.. "Who's to say they're not" doing something?

I would think that MWNY would be obvious evidence that they are NOT doing anything. Remember that its been a LONG time, that we have been waiting for PowerMacs with the right kind of power!

Waiting another month in the computer world is equal to much longer and as TJ has stated many CANNOT wait anymore!

APPLE's focus hasnt been on the machines for a long time.
Its on the software and apps.

Its the only thing that is keeping the APPLE alive. FCP3 would be a good example.
We have all been waiting patiently for the proper hardware.

Yet APPLE has taken a course of action that is to obviously stall the arrival of new hardware which they obviously have in the wings!

When you realize that they HAVE this hardware.
You can see APPLE true strategy.

That is to milk their loyal users for AS much as they can with antique hardware.
To stall them with distractions of useless iAPPz and half written OS's
Lets not forget that APPLE has millions in the bank made with incredibly POOR tech! What PC company would be in business still with that kind of tactic.

ANswer = NONE!

These are tactics delivered by a company that has a death wish.
How many times in the past has APPLE been on the edge of true success only to destroy themselves in strange ways which dumbfounds everyone?
 
Originally posted by Grokgod
In answer to JELLO's posting.. "Who's to say they're not" doing something?

I would think that MWNY would be obvious evidence that they are NOT doing anything. Remember that its been a LONG time, that we have been waiting for PowerMacs with the right kind of power!

Waiting another month in the computer world is equal to much longer and as TJ has stated many CANNOT wait anymore!

APPLE's focus hasnt been on the machines for a long time.
Its on the software and apps.

Its the only thing that is keeping the APPLE alive. FCP3 would be a good example.
We have all been waiting patiently for the proper hardware.

Yet APPLE has taken a course of action that is to obviously stall the arrival of new hardware which they obviously have in the wings!

When you realize that they HAVE this hardware.
You can see APPLE true strategy.

That is to milk their loyal users for AS much as they can with antique hardware.
To stall them with distractions of useless iAPPz and half written OS's
Lets not forget that APPLE has millions in the bank made with incredibly POOR tech! What PC company would be in business still with that kind of tactic.

ANswer = NONE!

These are tactics delivered by a company that has a death wish.
How many times in the past has APPLE been on the edge of true success only to destroy themselves in strange ways which dumbfounds everyone?
Click to expand...

Grok ain't havin' it! damn. lol! i'm not much of a conspiracy theorist but i'd be lying if i didn't agree with you on the whole hidden hardware thing. i can't see how the company that gave the common man FireWire, USB, and a ton of other innovations has simply run out of juice suddenly. the DDR thing is what really makes me suspicious. did they not see it coming or something? the G4 could not "do" DDR and now it suddenly can, sort of. it's just weird that such innovators would let such industry standards just pass by. they obviously must have new hardware that they are holding back or we would have seen it on the 18th. the question is : how much? do they just have a surplus of Quicksilvers that they need to unload or do they actually have the Quicksilvers, then the DDR/1.2s, THEN the G5 all ready to go in that order? i have no idea but i wouldn't be shocked. it's like what i mentioned with the records, tapes, CDs thing. if Apple already have a G5 or whatever supermachine completed and they are doing the old "trickle down" thing then ofcourse it sucks but who knows? i know for certain that i definitely do not have a G5. do you think they would purposely stay behind to stay alive? it happens alot in niche markets where the customer base is mainly enthusiests who buy whatever is released. is Apple doing it? it's a mystery to me but it's fun to think about. shhh...do hear that? i think it's Robert Stack ; )
 
Errr... editors and post houses are turning away from Apple...??? If anything FCP and DVD SP have sparked a new love for Apple. Mac hardware is already the standard, now Apple software is starting to join it.

Speed is important, but it's not on the top of many/any editor's lists. Editing software is one, system stability (both hardware and software) is two, storage would be three, and speed is probably number 4.

How often do you think post houses upgrade their computer hardware? Maybe every 5 or 6 years. IMO the problems w/OS X (both on Apples part and on 3rd party software makers being slow) are holding back people from upgrading more than slow hardware ('cause the current G4's are a helluva lot faster than the pre-G3 machines that many/most places are still using). There are so many things that can bring down an editing workstation that stability (or at least being aware of all the known problems) is almost always valued more than speed.

Does Apple need to overhaul (upgrade is too small a step) their hardware, yes. I mean, we're hopping for DDR, and PC users are waiting for DDR 2 to come out. Not to mention the FSB and proc speed issues. And I'm talking relative speed increase here, not comparitive. How much faster have Intel and AMD chips gotten in the past 2 years, and how much faster have Mac chips gotten?


Lethal
 
Originally posted by LethalWolfe

...How often do you think post houses upgrade their computer hardware? Maybe every 5 or 6 years. IMO the problems w/OS X (both on Apples part and on 3rd party software makers being slow) are holding back people from upgrading more than slow hardware ('cause the current G4's are a helluva lot faster than the pre-G3 machines that many/most places are still using). There are so many things that can bring down an editing workstation that stability (or at least being aware of all the known problems) is almost always valued more than speed...
Lethal
Click to expand...
you are right about lack of software holding people back from OSX. every studio i work with is still forced to stay in OS9 because of those 1 or 2 apps that STILL have not made it. the audio side in the worst. we have almost nothing yet. but this one is partly Apple's fault in a way. all the big apps(Logic, Cubase, DP, etc.) are all forced to wait for the release of 10.2 so that Core Audio is up to snuff for multiple ins/outs/etc. alot of the stuff has been ready for a while and they can't put it out. i've even heard that some of them are going to have 10.2 as a minimum requirement. we'll see. oh, and i've been inside some of the bigger post houses in NYC and i haven't seen anyone running a pre-G3 machine. not even a pre-G4 ; )
 
I agree that stability is a major issue.

But when you look at the many video houses that have turned to Pcheeses.
You can see that there are other issues that or perhaps more importance.

Stability is of little value it seems if the OS is so slow that you think its crashed!

Take the example of when JOBs was trying to get his computer to do something at MW this week. Something happened and after making a comment he switched to a backup computer!

Well , mac rarely crash and he wasnt doing anything that would have pushed the system into a crash yet he did switch to backup.

Perhaps it was going SO slow that he had thought it crashed ..LOL

I think its self evident that many graphic and video houses have long ago SWITCHED from MAC to WINTEL.

And when I talk to these guys in the work that I do.
They honestly cannot understand why I use a MAC.
WHen I do bring up why, and stability is one of the reasons.

I tell them that I hate to screw with drivers and all that Windoze crap.
They laugh, they enjoy it! Its like a guy that tweaks his car all the time.
its not a problem to them its an asset and a joy!

That is the Pcheese mentality.
It gives them the illusion of control, pure and simple.

I would also like to say that there is NO doubt that better hardware is merely sitting in the wings!

As APPLE drains the pocketbooks of all that dare come close.

Companys of this size always know LONG in advance the course or sales path that product will take. They have plans to DRAG this cash cow of selling incredible old tech at high premium prices ON, as long as the users ALLOW it!

Remember that ultimately WE are the ones prolonging this situation!

APPLE obviously thinks that we are unable to make rational decisions.
That we will follow whatever path they set for us, WHY~

Because the loyal APPLE user always HAS.

I believe that will SOON end.
And when it does, SUDDENLY you will see the most incredible hardware.

APPLE will say, it wasnt easy but we DID it, for you!

Its wasnt easy to use 2 year old technology?
Every half wit from COWS to DUDES have managed to incorporate this tech.

But APPLE the great innovator is NOT able to?

Oh Puhlease~
Give me a break, how stupid do I look?

ADDED~ oh dont get me started about the AUDIO problems in OSX..
We were sold an OS with NO sound or midi and now they want more money for what was missing! jesus!
 
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