Perhaps this is why the butterfly keys keep failing on me...

[bill-p]

Well, I think a part of the reason also is that I've been exclusively with Apple since about... 2009? Prior to that, I had a tanky Sony Vaio laptop that just refused to die (it's still alive today), and then even before that, I had mostly desktop keyboards.

Honestly, I'll still probably buy the next MacBook. Not because I'm a fanboy or anything like that, but mostly because Macs have been pretty reliable to me. Prior the 2015 upgrade, I had a 2012 Retina MacBook Pro 15" and I wanted to trade down to something smaller and lighter. And funny enough, before that, I had a 2009 13". The upgrade cycle used to be a lot shorter for me, but the butterfly keys have (kind of) forced me to get every incremental upgrade to see if it's getting any better. I just stopped just recently because of the rumors of the next keyboard being... completely different.

Also... yeah, I've started to dock the MacBook at home more, since new job gives me more free time than my last one and I can finally do more computing at home. So I got an external display and Magic Keyboard 2. Magic Keyboard 2 has been very solid, actually. Not sure if it's still using butterfly keys but this one seems a lot more clicky and also more... tanky than the butterfly keys on the MacBook for some reason. Maybe the design really can work, but it needs more room to breathe?

 

[c0ppo]

Yet certain users seem to have many failures. Very interesting statistically.

What is also interesting is that 99.99% of those users who had/have keyboard failures, never had those issues before butterfly keyboards.

IMHO (!), people who have keyboard failures tend to push their laptops more then others. For example, I had multiple failures. I'm a developer in a gaming company. So my laptop gets hot a lot of the time during the day.

But what is even more interesting, people who work heavily with 3D in Blender tend to have their keyboards fail way more often then mine failed. And people who do just web development, or just backend development, they have almost no failure. Maybe because their laptops don't get hot often?

Either way, butterfly keyboard is a mess.

 

[Fishrrman]

The butterfly keyboard "keeps failing" because it was a terrible design from the beginning that could never be completely "fixed" through kludges afterwards.

It certainly took them long enough to recognize the error of their ways and "go back" to a more proven design that worked for them in years past.

I'm wondering who the individual designers were (are) at Apple who were so arrogant to insist that the butterfly design should "stay", even when it was proving to be a disaster for them...?

 

[BigMcGuire]

The butterfly keyboard "keeps failing" because it was a terrible design from the beginning that could never be completely "fixed" through kludges afterwards.

It certainly took them long enough to recognize the error of their ways and "go back" to a more proven design that worked for them in years past.

I'm wondering who the individual designers were (are) at Apple who were so arrogant to insist that the butterfly design should "stay", even when it was proving to be a disaster for them...?

Is it still a disaster if it has less failure rates than previous models? Obviously we can't prove AppleInsider's "Apple Store Contact" but ... let's say for sake of argument it is true (this keyboard has less failure rates), giving Apple Insider the benefit of the doubt, is it still a failure then?

That said, I loved my 2015 MBA keyboard. That thing took 3 years of daily pounding ... I liked that keyboard a lot. I regret trading it in to get my MBP. It was a lot more pleasant to type on and a lot more quiet than my MBP keyboard.

There is such a thing as too thin. I think the Magic Keyboard 2 skirts this. It is too thin. My Anker bluetooth keyboard is a lot more pleasant to type on.

 

[poorcody]

But what is even more interesting, people who work heavily with 3D in Blender tend to have their keyboards fail way more often then mine failed. And people who do just web development, or just backend development, they have almost no failure. Maybe because their laptops don't get hot often?

That's interesting... maybe my original theory is true then: hitting the keys hard PLUS high heat.
[doublepost=1565362683][/doublepost]

The type of switch in both scissor and butterfly keyboards is actually the same. They both use rubber membrane dome boards. The scissor and butterfly stabilizers just affect how the force of your (attempted) keypress gets transferred to the dome switch.

The mechanism of the scissor stabilizers are flexible so if something goes wrong, the switch can still come down, but with wobble. The butterfly mechanism is VERY HARD. It doesn't wobble an iota. That's how it can get stuck.

That's also very interesting... so the fundamental design (versus a material or manufacturing issue) might very well be the problem. I've enjoyed your analysis of keyboards over the past couple of years -- thank you!

 

[BigMcGuire]

That's interesting... maybe my original theory is true then: hitting the keys hard PLUS high heat.
[doublepost=1565362683][/doublepost]That's also very interesting... so the fundamental design (versus a material or manufacturing issue) might very well be the problem. I've enjoyed your analysis of keyboards over the past couple of years -- thank you!

Agreed. Smirking's posts are a lot of fun to read and extremely informative. If this were reddit, we'd have to get him a silver or gold. lol.

I do know when I run my laptop in clamshell mode, the keys get REALLY warm when dual monitoring at work (so I usually use my laptop as a 3rd monitor). Being so small I could see heat affecting them like that.

 

[Howard2k]

Is it still a disaster if it has less failure rates than previous models? Obviously we can't prove AppleInsider's "Apple Store Contact" but ... let's say for sake of argument it is true (this keyboard has less failure rates), giving Apple Insider the benefit of the doubt, is it still a failure then?

The keyboard failure rate is higher, but the overall system failure rate is lower.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models

Following anecdotal reports of a keyboard more prone to failure than in previous years, AppleInsider has collected service data for the first year of release of the 2014, 2015, and 2016 MacBook Pros, with an additional slightly shorter data set for the 2017 model year given that it hasn't been available for a year yet.

Not including any Touch Bar failures, the 2016 MacBook Pro keyboard is failing twice as often in the first year of use as the 2014 or 2015 MacBook Pro models, and the 2017 is better, but not by a lot.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...em-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

In the three weeks since the program was launched, there have been 83 2016 MacBook Pro service incidents captured in total, with 10 of them being keyboards —about the same as the pre-service percentage.

The 2017 model has seen 110 service events captured since the repair program launch. Of those, 7 were keyboard repairs —again, about the same as the pre-service program rate. None of the machines we've captured data on have gone back for a second repair after a repair under the new program.

In both repair pools, no machines repaired under the program have come back for service a second time. It hasn't been that long, though, so there's no real conclusion to draw from that data points as of yet.

 

[BigMcGuire]

The keyboard failure rate is higher, but the overall system failure rate is lower.

https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...s-failing-twice-as-frequently-as-older-models





https://appleinsider.com/articles/1...em-to-improve-reliability-and-thats-not-great

Thanks for the clarification on the keyboard failure rates.

Yeah I like this quote from there too: "Overall, the total number of service calls is lower for both the 2016 and 2017 MacBook Pro, versus the older models, even including the keyboard failures."

 

[throAU]

You've had the keyboard fail 7 times?

A good friend of mine had 3 failures inside of a month (one of them lasted literally 1-2 days) with his 2015 Retina 12" until he gave up and exchanged it for a 2015 Macbook Pro 13" (he was a launch-week adopter of the 12"). It's actually the reason i am typing this right now on my 2015 Pro. I wanted the 12" for the portability and was agonising over losing the ports, but his experience with his sealed the deal for me.

I find it entirely believable that somebody may have had 7 failures or more in the past 3-4 years (or even inside a few months if they were unlucky enough). That said, after 3 i'd be ditching the machine and getting something else myself...
[doublepost=1565584649][/doublepost]

Yet certain users seem to have many failures. Very interesting statistically.

Probably people who actually type on the thing whilst on the go a lot, rather than just use it as a media consumption device... or on a desk connected to external peripherals, etc.

 

[Acronyc]

I’ve had my first-gen butterfly 2016 rMB for about 2.5 years without any real problems. I use it for anywhere from 2 to 8 hours a day, 5 to 6 days a week, and I’ve only had one stuck key about a year ago that was easily fixed with canned air. I type at a similar, if not slightly faster speed than you, but I tend to use a pretty light touch.

I have a similar experience. I've been using my 2016 nTB MBP since 1 November 2016 between 3 and 10 hours per day 5 or 6 days per week and I haven't had any problems with the keyboard yet. Not one stuck, repeating, or broken key. I also type fast and also use a very light touch when I type, which is why I think I haven't had any problems with my keyboard yet (I never understood the need to bang on keyboards in the first place).

With Apple changing the materials of the keyboard in the 2018 and 2019 models, I personally think this shows that the biggest problem is the butterfly keyboard can't handle a variety of typing styles. It seems to only handle light touch typists okay. If you are used to hitting your keyboard harder, then the butterfly keyboard is not strong enough to handle this and will eventually fail.

 

[ascender]

The fact some people have had multiple failures does seem to add weight to the suggestion that things like typing style and heat are factors here. Which obviously suggests that the materials just aren't up to the job. Although its really surprising we're now on the fourth iteration of this!

 

[ApplesandOranges]

So one device failed, and they are all bad? I had multiple MBP fail on me (butterfly keyboards), but my thinkpad X1E is running like a champ. Better build quality, better wifi, way better hardware then MBP in general. Only thing lacking behind MBP is battery life, and trackpad.

So saying 'thinkpad has bad wifi and it will crash' is kinda funny, especially since you used yoga, and it failed. A single device that isn't even a flagship device from Lenovo.

This is the danger of the internet and forums.

A person has a bad experience and forms an opinion about the entire brand. Then we find out the opinion wasn't actually about the same product but a similar one. So a person will read the post and believe the entire brand has problems. Fortunately a person with some sort of deductive reasoning skills will form their own opinion, but many will take a forum post as fact. Too bad. I wish people would use more discretion.

Kind of like those people who say Windows X sucks but are basing their opinion from back when they were using Windows XP, 7 or 8.

I for one purchased a 2019 13" MBP. Even with all the negative posts, I want to evaluate it for myself before drawing any conclusions. Still I have to admit when you read about negative experiences, it gives a person an uneasy feeling.

 

[jamesgryffindor99]

A good friend of mine had 3 failures inside of a month (one of them lasted literally 1-2 days) with his 2015 Retina 12" until he gave up and exchanged it for a 2015 Macbook Pro 13" (he was a launch-week adopter of the 12"). It's actually the reason i am typing this right now on my 2015 Pro. I wanted the 12" for the portability and was agonising over losing the ports, but his experience with his sealed the deal for me.

I find it entirely believable that somebody may have had 7 failures or more in the past 3-4 years (or even inside a few months if they were unlucky enough). That said, after 3 i'd be ditching the machine and getting something else myself...
[doublepost=1565584649][/doublepost]

Probably people who actually type on the thing whilst on the go a lot, rather than just use it as a media consumption device... or on a desk connected to external peripherals, etc.

I'm one of those who actually type on my machine a lot. I've NEVER had another type of keyboard fail like the butterfly keyboard. Whether it's a dome/scissor switch on a cheapo laptop, an IBM Model M keyboard, a cheapo $40 mechanical keyboard, or even the cheapest of the cheap Microsoft keyboard. Heck, my cheapo Microsoft keyboard has never had any issues and it cost $15.

 

[throAU]

I'm one of those who actually type on my machine a lot. I've NEVER had another type of keyboard fail like the butterfly keyboard. Whether it's a dome/scissor switch on a cheapo laptop, an IBM Model M keyboard, a cheapo $40 mechanical keyboard, or even the cheapest of the cheap Microsoft keyboard. Heck, my cheapo Microsoft keyboard has never had any issues and it cost $15.

I have also never had a keyboard failure (outside of spilling beer on it during gaming sessions - which is totally different to mechanical failure) inside the last 37 years across all of the varying keyboard types. I don't believe the friend i mention above was prone to keyboard failure either before or since, either.