Periscope Lens: What is it? And When Will Apple Use One in iPhone?

[chucker23n1]

I don't understand this obsession with iphone's camera is the best...

Most reviews seem to consistently put the iPhone camera as one of the best.

Specs aren't everything. Being first isn't everything.

Credit to Google shipping Night Light a year before Apple's Night Mode, but in practice, the Verge review suggests that Apple's implementation produces better pictures.

 

[bollman]

No they didn’t.

First, they filed the patent in 2014.

Second, here’s an example claim from the patent - please tell us where this was done 20 years ago:

18. A folded telephoto lens system, comprising:
a plurality of refractive lens elements arranged along a folded optical axis of the telephoto lens system, wherein at least one surface of at least one of the plurality of lens elements is aspheric;
wherein the telephoto lens system has effective focal length f within a range of 10.0 millimeters to 14 millimeters, wherein total track length (TTL) of the telephoto lens system is 14 millimeters or less, and wherein the telephoto ratio (TTL/J) of the lens system is within a range of 0.8 to 1.0; and
wherein at least one of the plurality of lens elements is composed of a first material, and wherein at least one other of the plurality of lens elements is composed of a second material with different optical characteristics than the first material;
wherein the plurality of lens elements includes, in order along the folded optical axis from an object side of the telephoto lens system to an image side of the telephoto lens system:
a first lens element with positive refractive power having a convex object side surface;
a second lens element with negative refractive power;
a light path folding element configured to redirect light from a first optical path of the folded optical axis on to a second optical path of the folded optical axis;
a third lens element with negative refractive power; and
a fourth lens element with positive refractive power, wherein the fourth lens element is positive meniscus shape and has a concave image side surface.

Look at this patent:

US20060017834A1 - Imaging optical system and imaging lens device - Google Patents

An imaging optical system 100 has an imaging side prism 102 for bending incident light at about 90 degrees for reflection, and an image sensor 105 having a light receiving surface opposing to an exit surface 102 b of the imaging side prism 102. At least one of an incident surface...

patents.google.com

And read the referred patents and you can clearly see that it's not really anything new. Apple might have changed some minor parts to get the patent through, but it's quite obvious that Apple's patent is by no means anything radically new.

Thankfully for Apple, US20060017834A1 is "abandoned" since 2020-03-24!

 

[cmaier]

Look at this patent:

US20060017834A1 - Imaging optical system and imaging lens device - Google Patents

An imaging optical system 100 has an imaging side prism 102 for bending incident light at about 90 degrees for reflection, and an image sensor 105 having a light receiving surface opposing to an exit surface 102 b of the imaging side prism 102. At least one of an incident surface...

patents.google.com

And read the referred patents and you can clearly see that it's not really anything new. Apple might have changed some minor parts to get the patent through, but it's quite obvious that Apple's patent is by no means anything radically new.

Thankfully for Apple, US20060017834A1 is "abandoned" since 2020-03-24!

Patents don’t have to be radically new. Almost all patents are minor improvements over the prior art.

 

[M3gatron]

Most reviews seem to consistently put the iPhone camera as one of the best.

Specs aren't everything. Being first isn't everything.

Credit to Google shipping Night Light a year before Apple's Night Mode, but in practice, the Verge review suggests that Apple's implementation produces better pictures.

I never said it's not one of the best, although being one of the best today isn't than impressive as it used to be in the past as the smartphone market today is full of phones with great cameras.
Specs are important when it comes to cameras. Apple stated to be truly competitive when they bumped the sensor size. Until the iphone 11 they were quite mediocre in low light for example.

It's not about being first but being competitive in terms of timing as well. Huawei was among the first with a periscope camera and it performed really well(most reviewers were impressed by it's zoom capabilities), Samsung came a generation later and raised the level of quality even further. Apple will be joining to this party 4 generations later and until then iphone users are stuck with the 2x zoom that apple introduced since 2016. Even the Pixel 4(although it's still only 2X) is better here thanks to the slightly higher resolution and better software processing(Super Res Zoom).

Night Sight works well on the original Pixel, Pixel 2, Pixel 3 and Pixel 4. How does Night Mode for photos work on the iPhone Xs? iphone x? or iphone 8 plus?
Apple's implementation sometimes produces better result, sometimes worse results, like I've said it's competitive.

 

[chucker23n1]

Night Sight works well on the original Pixel, Pixel 2, Pixel 3 and Pixel 4. How does Night Mode for photos work on the iPhone Xs? iphone x? or iphone 8 plus?

Apple doesn't care how it works on the 8 Plus, because they want to sell you an 11 instead. They could do a mediocre implementation on the 8 Plus, like what Google has done, or they could sell you new hardware and deliver a top-tier implementation. More money, and better reputation.

 

[M3gatron]

Google's implementation of Night Sigh on older phones is not mediocre at all. It works really really well. It works great even on other Android phones with the sideloaded Google Camera app.
And of course any company wants to sell you their latest model(not that I, as a consumer should care about that at all), my point was that when Google was launching Night Sight with impressive low light capabilities, Xs users were dealing with mediocre low light performance so any implementation that would have improved this situation would have been welcomed. Apple didn't wait to get it right, they were just late, the same way they are even more late now with the better zoom solution.

 

[chucker23n1]

Google's implementation of Night Sigh on older phones is not mediocre at all. It works really really well. It works great even on other Android phones with the sideloaded Google Camera app.

The Verge's testing suggests that Apple's Night Mode is better than Google's Night Sight:

Apple iPhone 11 review: the phone most people should buy

This was not a hard review.

www.theverge.com

I started the iPhone 11 Pro review with an easy shot in bright sunlight, so let’s start this review with a torture test: here’s the iPhone 11 and Pixel 3 in night modes and zoomed in (even though neither has a zoom lens). The iPhone XR would basically fail at taking this photo, while the iPhone 11 holds its own against the Pixel 3.

Here’s another photo that the XR would fail to capture well. The iPhone 11 captures the right light and detail so much better than the Pixel. And the Pixel often looks unnatural by making things much brighter than reality, which happened again here.

And:

Apple iPhone 11 Pro and Pro Max review: the battery life is real

A lot of phone for a lot of money.

www.theverge.com

Speaking of night modes, it’s also really impressive, and it preserves a ton more detail than the Pixel.

Apple’s Night mode comes on automatically in the dark with a suggested exposure time, which you can tweak or turn off if you want. The Pixel shot here looks more dramatic, but look a little closer: the iPhone has preserved all of the detail in the brick and graffiti, which is basically gone in the Pixel shot.

Two more: look at all of the extra detail in the bushes in the iPhone shot, and that fence at the waterfront isn’t even there in the Pixel photo. I think the Pixel continues to produce more contrasty, dramatic images than the iPhone 11 camera, but I’d rather have the extra detail.

So the iPhone 11 camera does better in bright light than the Pixel 3 and Note 10, and Night mode beats the Pixel 3 more often than not. If the deep fusion update improves medium-to-low light performance as much as Apple says it will, the iPhone 11 will take better photos than the competition in every lighting situation.

Which, again, makes sense, because the iPhone 11 simply has better sensors.

And of course any company wants to sell you their latest model(not that I, as a consumer should care about that at all), my point was that when Google was launching Night Sight with impressive low light capabilities, Xs users were dealing with mediocre low light performance so any implementation that would have improved this situation would have been welcomed.

True.

Apple didn't wait to get it right, they were just late, the same way they are even more late now with the better zoom solution.

They were hardly "late". Night Mode launched just a year after Night Sight. And was better out of the box. I really don't understand how that's "late".

I don't understand the hurry.

 

[Thrutheroofnunderground]

Exiting times for sure. Every year the cameras get a bit more capable. I’m interested to see how much of an image quality compromise a periscope lens will be.

Not hard. Just go check out one of the MANY phones on the market that have one. Samsung is now doing it. Huawei has been doing it, as have other Chinese brands, for multiple years now. It was in the P30 Pro, so Apple will be at minimum 4 years behind on implementing this if it doesn't happen until 2020.

Edit: Zoom is literally the only thing I want in my next phone. Ultrawide is nice, but not nearly as useful in my opinion, as decent quality zoom. Once Apple implemented that, I would have that phone for 5 years, as there isn't anything (to me) that could make it better. Don't care about bigger better screens, removing the notch, it being thicker or thinner.

 

[ericwn]

Not hard. Just go check out one of the MANY phones on the market that have one. Samsung is now doing it. Huawei has been doing it, as have other Chinese brands, for multiple years now. It was in the P30 Pro, so Apple will be at minimum 4 years behind on implementing this if it doesn't happen until 2020.

Edit: Zoom is literally the only thing I want in my next phone. Ultrawide is nice, but not nearly as useful in my opinion, as decent quality zoom. Once Apple implemented that, I would have that phone for 5 years, as there isn't anything (to me) that could make it better. Don't care about bigger better screens, removing the notch, it being thicker or thinner.

I’ll wait until it’s available on iPhone, I’m in no rush - can’t go into a store now anyway as pretty much everything is closed. And get an Android just to check it out, naaaa

 

[cmaier]

Why do people keep saying “zoom” when they mean “telephoto?”

 

[M3gatron]

The Verge's testing suggests that Apple's Night Mode is better than Google's Night Sight:

The Verge? I thought we were having a serious conversation. Also Pixel 3? Why not Pixel 4?

They were hardly "late". Night Mode launched just a year after Night Sight. And was better out of the box. I really don't understand how that's "late".

I don't understand the hurry.

Huawei was the first to impress users with a dedicate Night mode for low light photography so Night Sight wasn't even the first solution on the market.
And it not about hurry but about being competitive in terms of timing. If Apple's zoom solution would be competitive at around 3x -5x right now then it wouldn't be a big problem, but it's not competitive. By comparison Pixel 4 is competitive at those zoom levels.

 

[chucker23n1]

The Verge? I thought we were having a serious conversation. Also Pixel 3? Why not Pixel 4?

Because the Pixel 4 wasn't out yet. You might as well ask, "why not iPhone 12?".

And yes, the reviews seem quite serious.

Huawei was the first to impress users with a dedicate Night mode for low light photography so Night Sight wasn't even the first solution on the market.

Cool.

So what?

AltaVista had an impressive search engine in the 90s, so I guess Google shouldn't even have bothered?

And it not about hurry but about being competitive in terms of timing. If Apple's zoom solution would be competitive at around 3x -5x right now then it wouldn't be a big problem, but it's not competitive. By comparison Pixel 4 is competitive at those zoom levels.

Apple is plenty competitive. They're selling iPhones as fast as Foxconn et al can make them. Being "late" by a year is absurd. It's not late.

Why do people keep saying “zoom” when they mean “telephoto?”

Because people use English, not Photographer Nerdese.

 

[cmaier]

Because people use English, not Photographer Nerdese.

Then what do you call a lens with moving elements that allows smoothly changing focal lengths?

The problem is “zoom” means something else, and that meaning is quite relevant to cell phone photography too.

 

[M3gatron]

Because the Pixel 4 wasn't out yet. You might as well ask, "why not iPhone 12?".

And yes, the reviews seem quite serious.

You said that: Apple's Night Mode is better than Google's Night Sight
And after than proceed to quote The Verge talking the 1 year older Pixel 3. Weird.

Cool.
So what?
AltaVista had an impressive search engine in the 90s, so I guess Google shouldn't even have bothered?

So Apple was late.

Apple is plenty competitive. They're selling iPhones as fast as Foxconn et al can make them. Being "late" by a year is absurd. It's not late.

They are definitely not competitive in terms of zoom capabilities which what I was very clearly taking about. But it's OK, the fact that you tried to ignore the obvious is a good sign that what I wrote is accurate.

 

[chucker23n1]

Then what do you call a lens with moving elements that allows smoothly changing focal lengths?

The problem is “zoom” means something else, and that meaning is quite relevant to cell phone photography too.

Zoom in layman's terms means "switch between different distances/levels of details". That's what the zoom in/out tool in any image app does.

"Telephoto" is used by Apple to refer to one of the iPhone 11 Pro lenses, yes, but a layman will simply call it "zoomed in", not "telephoto".

You said that: Apple's Night Mode is better than Google's Night Sight
And after than proceed to quote The Verge talking the 1 year older Pixel 3. Weird.

Wut?

It's an iPhone 11 review. They looked at phones that existed at the time. For Google, that was the Pixel 3. The Pixel 4 wasn't out.

But yes, once the Pixel 4 came out, they remarked quite favorably on it.

Google Pixel 4 and 4 XL review: more than the sum of its sensors

The fourth-gen phone has five big new features

www.theverge.com

Speaking of Night Sight, it’s still here, and it’s still a separate mode you have to specifically switch to — Apple has its night mode system turn on automatically. Comparing the two, I mostly found it to be a toss-up. Both cameras take multiple shots and combine them together, but there are differences. The iPhone 11 Pro seems to lean on slightly longer exposure times while the Pixel 4 takes more, shorter shots and does more math.

That’s my supposition, anyway, because I find that when everything is still (including my hands), I can get slightly more detail out of the iPhone than I can the Pixel. In the shot below, the iPhone captured detail in the buildings but blurred the clouds. The Pixel just keeps doing its look.



In dim light I find the two are closer, but because I have shaky hands, I get sharper, more detailed results from the Pixel a little more often. Again, though, the thing to notice here is just how close they are to each other.

So Apple was late.

😂

You do you.

They are definitely not competitive in terms of zoom capabilities which what I was very clearly taking about. But it's OK, the fact that you tried to ignore the obvious is a good sight that what I wrote is accurate.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I find someone who buys a phone based on "yeah, everything else about it is great, but what about its zoom capabilities?? I saw some other phone from a company nobody has ever heard of and they do better spec-whoring than Apple!"

Unfortunately for you, such people are rare.

Your original assertion was, "I don't understand this obsession with iphone's camera is the best..." — well, they consistently rank in the top five of overall. Just because you can find some specific feature where some other phone is better doesn't affect the overall experience.

The iPhone's camera is one of the best all-rounders. If you must win some Internet points because someone else had a specific feature earlier than Apple… OK, cool, buddy.

 

[cmaier]

Zoom in layman's terms means "switch between different distances/levels of details". That's what the zoom in/out tool in any image app does.

"Telephoto" is used by Apple to refer to one of the iPhone 11 Pro lenses, yes, but a layman will simply call it "zoomed in", not "telephoto".

What I was complaining about is people referring to lenses with a higher focal length as "zoom." I don't mind when they talk about zoom in the first sense. So when they say "I wish iphone would add zoom" are they saying they want a 90mm-equivalent lens/sensor combo or are they saying they want a lens that can transition between focal lengths with one sensor?

 

[M3gatron]

Wut?
It's an iPhone 11 review. They looked at phones that existed at the time. For Google, that was the Pixel 3. The Pixel 4 wasn't out.

But yes, once the Pixel 4 came out, they remarked quite favorably on it.

Pixel 4 came only a month later.
If you say Nigh Sight is worse the reference should be Pixel 4 not the much older Pixel 3.
If not, just say that Apple's night mode beat Google's 1 year older phone.

I'll be sure to keep that in mind next time I find someone who buys a phone based on "yeah, everything else about it is great, but what about its zoom capabilities?? I saw some other phone from a company nobody has ever heard of and they do better spec-whoring than Apple!"

Unfortunately for you, such people are rare.

Your original assertion was, "I don't understand this obsession with iphone's camera is the best..." — well, they consistently rank in the top five of overall. Just because you can find some specific feature where some other phone is better doesn't affect the overall experience.

The iPhone's camera is one of the best all-rounders. If you must win some Internet points because someone else had a specific feature earlier than Apple… OK, cool, buddy.

So the truth bothers you. OK, cool, buddy.
You didn't even understand what I meant with: "I don't understand this obsession with iphone's camera is the best..."
I wasn't about ranking in the top five overall or being one of the best all-rounders, I clarified it from the start, but the obsession that it is the very best, it's no. 1 when it clearly isn't, no smartphone camera system is no. 1.

 

[chucker23n1]

What I was complaining about is people referring to lenses with a higher focal length as "zoom." I don't mind when they talk about zoom in the first sense. So when they say "I wish iphone would add zoom" are they saying they want a 90mm-equivalent lens/sensor combo or are they saying they want a lens that can transition between focal lengths with one sensor?

It's effectively the same.

They obviously don't want just a prime that's 90mm-equivalent. They want the option to switch between the current wide-angle lens and an added telephoto lens. So to them, it's "I want optical zoom". Whether that optical zoom is accomplished by an actual zoom lens, or multiple fixed prime lenses, doesn't really matter.
[automerge]1585159255[/automerge]

You didn't even understand what I meant with: "I don't understand this obsession with iphone's camera is the best..."
I wasn't about ranking in the top five overall or being one of the best all-rounders, I clarified it from the start, but the obsession that it is the very best, it's no. 1 when it clearly isn't, no smartphone camera system is no. 1.

Have you considered that you didn't word your post well, then?

It's one of the best. In several ways, it is the very best. In some ways, Samsung, Huawei, Google, or others are better.

 

[AngerDanger]

The actual quote, "The new 2H22 ‌iPhone‌ will feature a periscope" doesn't mention a camera. It's like the people writing this article don't even consider that it may be Apple's first special attempt to appeal to submariners with something specific to their needs. (Where is @AngerDanger when you need him?)

It's been four months… but I finally got you covered…

 

[CarlJ]

It's been four months… but I finally got you covered…

Just have to say, your work here on the forums is deeply appreciated.

 

[Digital Dude]

"a clear phone would look pretty epic"
Let's reimagine an epic conversation; there, I nailed three monotonous social media buzz words in one unoriginal sentence.

 

[jumpcutking]

I wonder if they could sell lens attachments... to me that sounds like a great accessory. Remove the camera bump and replace it with some new accessory for multiple lens.