PlayFair Shutdown

[Thor74]

btw.. asked that lindmar's direct links be edited.. Come on folks.. Wanna get MacRumors into trouble as well?!! Baka..... 😡

 

[morkintosh]

You can't stop progress, but you can throw a wrench into the gears to delay it.

eh, so you'll just have to go to the myriad of mirrors that will be popping up all over the place.

 

[musicpyrite]

I really don't haven any comment on this, as you need a credit card to buy iTMUS songs; but if you didn't need a credit card to use your free song from Pepsi, then I would have nearly 50 songs. I'm a pretty sad Apple fan, I haven't bought one iTMS song 🙁

 

[greg75]

btw.. asked that lindmar's direct links be edited.. Come on folks.. Wanna get MacRumors into trouble as well?!! Baka..... 😡

Why? Did you find anything illegal on the sites he linked to?

 

[schatten]

Stealing is stealing.

What people don't realize is that if they log into ITMS and download ITMS songs, then they're agreeing to ITMS rules. It's a contract. Did anyone read it?

Apple is selling a product- a product they are legally allowed to sell by contract with the record labels. You, as a consumer, have to abide by Apple's rules if you want to use their services, just as Apple has to abide by the labels' rules. Illegally sharing ITMS songs breaks Apple's rules, and in turn the record labels' rules. Pretty soon, the labels will get pissed and stop providing contend for ITMS. Then nobody gets what they want, all because some greedy little bitches can't fork over $.99 per song.

And don't give me that "The artists are getting screwed by ITMS, just like the free (illegal) download apps" crap. A few pennies per download is a damn sight more than nothing (it adds up, you know) and if the artists have a problem with how their music is being sold they should have considered that before signing the rights to their art away.

I don't feel sorry for the artists. The last I checked, "Outkast", Britney, & co. weren't living in poverty. They live far more extravagant lives than I do. I don't feel sorry for the record labels or Apple either. They're not hurting.

I do have a problem with people who are too weak to own up to the fact that pirating music is theft. Take respnsibility. Apple's not in the wrong for filing suit. They have to protect their assets. Apple never promised anybody free music (except the Pepsi campaign, but that's moot). Everyone (and that means EVERYONE) who has downloaded a song from Apple's ITMS agreed to the Terms & Conditions. Those terms & conditions were a legal contract promising NOT to share the music illegally.

PlayFair? hardlly. Take responsibility. It's PlayUnFair.

 

[pounce]

Bands can entirely manage everything on their own at this point. Technology is fast, easy, and cheap enough that any band that wanted to learn a little bit could entirely bypass the production arm of the music companies, and make at least as much as the non-headliners do now, all without risking the rights to their music or their ability to explore other avenues without being slapped by contract law.

this is the most hilariously uninformed and incorrect post on the subject. i don't know how often you work with bands. for me its everyday. some of these boys need help wiping their asses, never mind the suggestion that they could record and mix (on what gear?), manage, book, negotiate contracts, etc. on thier own. it's a HUGE undertaking. and despite the history of unfair major label contracts, there still is a NEED for a number of people who are professional to help a band in many different ways. bands absolutely cannot accomplish what you are suggesting on their own. the only ones who come close to being on their own and still having a huge audience (pearljam, prince, etc.) also had a huge label backing them in the first place which is the only reason you even know who they are. no sir, bands aren't and may never be self reliant. i've heard the bands that are. it would be a very rare exception that could really record themselves well, do good business, book shows, handle all those sorts of things. it's much more work than you realize. and as a full time recording engineer, i can tell you the difference between the work of a professional with high end production gear and a bands efforts at home is pretty big. we cannot cut out the people who bands need. we can and should change the model, but your ill informed opinion is a hinderance and not a help. bands and fans need better advice than what you are giving. and your arrogance aside, you sir no nothing about this business at all. i figured that out in three posts of yours. that said. i'll just stick around here long enough to suss out when the new g5's come out so i can get my third daw up and running.

 

[FunkyGuitarGirl]

What it's going to take is a major artist (I hate that term, but you all know what I mean - a U2, Justin Timberlake, etc) to not renew their contract with their record company and go it solo. This could be very possible because:

1) Big artists already have a lot of name recognition and hence dont need a whole lot of record company side publicity (they usually get it free from the media and have money to handle a bit of their own)

2) They have enough money to handle any up front costs (setting up distrubution deals with record stores and other similar stuff)

I really think if something like this happened it would revolutionize the record industry into a more organic business. Only smaller record comanies would be left to help new artists, and there's no problem with that because I think the consensus is that smaller record companies are nicer.

It's been done! His name is Prince! And he is funky!

 

[FunkyGuitarGirl]

this is the most hilariously uninformed and incorrect post on the subject. i don't know how often you work with bands. for me its everyday. some of these boys need help wiping their asses, never mind the suggestion that they could record and mix (on what gear?), manage, book, negotiate contracts, etc. on thier own. it's a HUGE undertaking. and despite the history of unfair major label contracts, there still is a NEED for a number of people who are professional to help a band in many different ways. bands absolutely cannot accomplish what you are suggesting on their own. the only ones who come close to being on their own and still having a huge audience (pearljam, prince, etc.) also had a huge label backing them in the first place which is the only reason you even know who they are. no sir, bands aren't and may never be self reliant. i've heard the bands that are. it would be a very rare exception that could really record themselves well, do good business, book shows, handle all those sorts of things. it's much more work than you realize. and as a full time recording engineer, i can tell you the difference between the work of a professional with high end production gear and a bands efforts at home is pretty big. we cannot cut out the people who bands need. we can and should change the model, but your ill informed opinion is a hinderance and not a help. bands and fans need better advice than what you are giving. and your arrogance aside, you sir no nothing about this business at all. i figured that out in three posts of yours. that said. i'll just stick around here long enough to suss out when the new g5's come out so i can get my third daw up and running.

Thanks Pounce... as a working musician TRYING to get signed to an indie or one of the smaller majors, I appreciate your input... Since my bandmates and I, along with our manager (who does booking, PR, Musical directing and 5 million other things) are doing this on our own, I have an understanding of what it takes to make quality product, keep the band in tip top shape (musically and otherwise), tour, promote, etc. This issue is simply not cut and dry. I DO wish that the big boys would wake up and understand that the day of the dinosaur IS coming to an end... If the majors would STOP being so scared of this technology and LEARN about it, I think it would TRULY revolutionize music making and appreciation.

 

[~Shard~]

What people don't realize is that if they log into ITMS and download ITMS songs, then they're agreeing to ITMS rules. It's a contract. Did anyone read it?

Apple is selling a product- a product they are legally allowed to sell by contract with the record labels. You, as a consumer, have to abide by Apple's rules if you want to use their services, just as Apple has to abide by the labels' rules. Illegally sharing ITMS songs breaks Apple's rules, and in turn the record labels' rules. Pretty soon, the labels will get pissed and stop providing contend for ITMS. Then nobody gets what they want, all because some greedy little bitches can't fork over $.99 per song.

And don't give me that "The artists are getting screwed by ITMS, just like the free (illegal) download apps" crap. A few pennies per download is a damn sight more than nothing (it adds up, you know) and if the artists have a problem with how their music is being sold they should have considered that before signing the rights to their art away.

I don't feel sorry for the artists. The last I checked, "Outkast", Britney, & co. weren't living in poverty. They live far more extravagant lives than I do. I don't feel sorry for the record labels or Apple either. They're not hurting.

I do have a problem with people who are too weak to own up to the fact that pirating music is theft. Take respnsibility. Apple's not in the wrong for filing suit. They have to protect their assets. Apple never promised anybody free music (except the Pepsi campaign, but that's moot). Everyone (and that means EVERYONE) who has downloaded a song from Apple's ITMS agreed to the Terms & Conditions. Those terms & conditions were a legal contract promising NOT to share the music illegally.

PlayFair? hardlly. Take responsibility. It's PlayUnFair.

Nothing really to add, but I just wanted to say nice post - well thought-out, well-conveyed and correct - when it comes down to it, stealing is stealing. 😎

 

[bumfilter]

Imagine there was a record company, that was open to all aspects of music technology in the distribution of their music, charged a fair rate to us customers, was fair to musicians, was just basically the Ned Flanders of the music business but possibly not as annoying.

Do you think there is enough artists out there, who would pro-activley search for such a record company, instead of going for all the "glitz and glamour" of say, Sony or Universal?

Secondly, do you think such a business (it is a business after all) could survive for any length of time?

I'd love to see such a record company but unless there is support for it, things will continue the way they do.

 

[greg75]

What people don't realize is that if they log into ITMS and download ITMS songs, then they're agreeing to ITMS rules. It's a contract. Did anyone read it?

Do you know what the legal definition of a contract is? Somehow I doubt it.

I do have a problem with people who are too weak to own up to the fact that pirating music is theft.

As I suspected, you know much about the law.

It follows that interference with copyright does not easily equate with theft, conversion or fraud. The Copyright Act even employs a separate term of art to define one who misappropriates a copyright: "Anyone who violates any of the exclusive rights of the copyright owner," that is, anyone who trespasses into his exclusive domain by using or authorizing the use of the copyrighted work in one of the five ways set forth in the statute, "is an infringer of the copyright."
-- Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun back in 1985, in Dowling v. the United States"

 

[greg75]

Imagine there was a record company, that was open to all aspects of music technology in the distribution of their music, charged a fair rate to us customers, was fair to musicians, was just basically the Ned Flanders of the music business but possibly not as annoying.

http://magnatune.com : "We're a record label. But we're not evil."

 

[Thor74]

Why? Did you find anything illegal on the sites he linked to?

The same items that were asked to be pulled from SForge. Although not direct links to the files themselves. His post links to the sites that do have direct links. Never underestimate the power of a company like Apple to try and punish sites like MacRumors for small infractions.

If the software violates their rights on the songs, then it is just plain common sense not to have direct links to that software or sites. Even if Apple has not won or even taken the issue to court yet.

Go do a networksolutions.com "whois" on MacRumors.. it's run here in the US, where we do have Copyright laws that are actually enforced at times.

Why even post something dumb that could remotely get a great site like this in trouble? The rumors alone get it into issues with some Apple folks I am sure. Now lets help pirate music from here to?! Uhmmm yeah.. no thanks...
🙄

 

[e-coli]

Not at all..
I suggest we continue this battle against the Recording Indsutries and we seek alternative...
I suggest we give the artists 100% or 95%...

So who's going to pay for all the PR, tour bookings and related costs, media buys and related advertising costs? Who's going to pay for the studio time, mixing time? Who's going to pay for CD production, warehousing, and distribution?

Although I agree with you the artists need more of a cut, what you're suggesting is highly unrealistic. Besides, the terms of the artists contracts CLEARLY state what they're getting themselves into.

The "alternative" needs to come from the artists themselves, not from the recording industry. Case in point: Dave Matthews. Didn't like the deals coming across the table from the major record studios, so he formed his own label. He did just fine. The White Stripes did the same.

 

[greg75]

Why even post something dumb that could remotely get a great site like this in trouble?

Indeed. Why did the macrumors administrator post a link to the playfair site? 🙄

Perhaps the administrator has heard of a thing called Freedom of Speech and is not afraid to stand up to corporate bullies.

 

[Sabenth]

Sup guys this debate still going on..??

Simple fact is this if you download music of itms you are in a legal binding contract for the usa seeming usa is the only place were suppose to be based to download the music on there ....

Its like apple vs apple . Apple broke its contract with apple and they are trying to make it quite clear that you can not breake a contract...


Why would you share a music file you just bought in the first place its for your own use plus what about the cd creation hmm come on think on your feet..


As for artists getting a bigger cut iam up for it iam one and i wouldnt see much in the cash flow department hell ill be lucky if i sell 3 cds this year but then again i dont push my stuff like a lable pushes all that crap thats out there🙂

 

[G5orbust]

Well, all I have to say is that if you cut off one head, two more will grow in its place. If their DRM can be circumvented then the shutting down of PlayFair will only force it underground to propigate through the circles only to emerge later stronger than before.

All I have to say to Apple is be smart about this.

 

[tgilbey]

My thoughts

Personally, I think people are taking thatwendigo et al's posts a little too seriously.....no one in their right mind could doubt the importance of additional creatives in the industry such as studio staff and media designers.

However, I would argue that
a) it is possible to do this kind of stuff on a smaller scale with direct payments to a few key staff, rather than huge contracts with big name graphics studios etc etc.

b)the major labels create and perpetuate an environment where it is impossible to launch a new act without a vast media campaign

c)what the major labels think is best for a band often has more to do with dumbing down the musical content to fit their market demographic and desired sales projections (although I admit that whether this is what the dumb public want vs. what they have made us think we want is a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument)
I could provide lots of examples of excessive production jobs that ruin the feel of a record compared to a version previously released on a demo or EP.

I personally prefer to listen to music made by people who made it because they think it is the best music they can make, NOT because they think it will sell best. However, the major labels sell only what they think will sell best, c.f. labels such as dischord who care about their output.
Alas I have very little choice. Years of unfair contracts, PROVEN illegal price-fixing and general poly-channel media monopolisation by the record companies restrict my choice.

I try to compensate artist's whose music I have truly enjoyed. I do not think (although I have BOUGHT hundreds of legal CDs) that buying major label output at <5% is a good way to do this. I cannot believe that studio staff etc.s wages represent anywhere near the fraction that they should either.

Finally, the majors do not seem to accept that technology is changing their profit margins. Buying lossy-compressed music with DRM restrictions at even 70% of cd cost represents poor value-play it through any decent stereo and you can notice the difference. Nevertheless, rather than dropping the price, they strive to work out just how deeply they can shaft us before we crack....this is their free-market entitlement, except that the market is not so free AND people are therefore enticed by their overpricing to download.

Here in the UK, Itunes tracks will be 99 pence. that is around 1.85 USD. Not sounding like such good value to the sanctimonious apple faithful now, is it? We have always been a more expensive market for CDs, for no good reason. Now the labels want to continue the wallet-rape just because they think joe consumer won't notice the drop. *EDIT* lack of drop

Until recently, the baseline *illegally-fixed* cd price in the uk had never dropped. Even from the days when only one person in your street could afford such leading/bleeding edge tech as a cd deck. Compare this with so many other formats which drop as volumes ramp up.

I'm glad the UK doesn't have a full-blown DMCA equivalent law yet. Only in america where if corporation x gives enough money to senator y's election campaign he will push a bill through could you possibly get such a stupid, consumer-f*cking law.

I don't dispute that downloading is wrong, but I think the reasons people on here argue so vehemently against "thievery" fall into some obvious camps. Forgive the mildly insulting generalisations, but....
a) they are creatives and empathise with other creatives who need to earn a crust.
b) they are creatives who work in the industry and have thus become slightly indoctrinated
c) they are rich creatives and can afford music (like they can afford dual g5s and phat LCDs. mmmmm.....)
d) they don't listen to that much music, or their taste is far too mainstream
e) they blindly accept everything that apple (I love apple too) does is manna from heaven

so I conclude that we need a music industry, but not one that does nothing to improve the Quality of music and spends most of their fat cat profits on things they can sniff up their f**king noses
*EDIT* one of the nicest and most comforting things i've read on this forum is the assertion that "if you can read the data, you can copy the data"
Anyone in any doubt about the dangers of DRM and/or trusted computing should read prof. Ross anderson's trusted computing FAQ. I can't remember the link but if you google it you'll give more hits to the new internet monopolist threat😉/EDIT
ok i'll get a massage, float in a tank, and listen to mating whales whilst getting my ego stroked by a therapist now😉

 

[lindmar]

btw.. asked that lindmar's direct links be edited.. Come on folks.. Wanna get MacRumors into trouble as well?!! Baka..... 😡

trouble for what
free speech?

thats the gayest comment ive read in this entire thread

 

[lindmar]

So who's going to pay for all the PR, tour bookings and related costs, media buys and related advertising costs? Who's going to pay for the studio time, mixing time? Who's going to pay for CD production, warehousing, and distribution?

Although I agree with you the artists need more of a cut, what you're suggesting is highly unrealistic. Besides, the terms of the artists contracts CLEARLY state what they're getting themselves into.

The "alternative" needs to come from the artists themselves, not from the recording industry. Case in point: Dave Matthews. Didn't like the deals coming across the table from the major record studios, so he formed his own label. He did just fine. The White Stripes did the same.

Hey I agree,,
As for PR, that is only to form your likes/dislikes...makes you buy records,, thus PR bad...CD production extremely cheap...

I am not saying this can all be done.. I am only saying that the case has not even been made that Downloading has cost the Record Companies anything.. infact it has been found that sales may have increased since P2P began...

Holy Crap..
Why are they suing everybody then?
Essentially p2p is free PR,, "Hey I downloaded this new song , check it out",
"hey man thats cool" goes to another friend "check out this tune"

cool, they all buy the album...

 

[lindmar]

Why? Did you find anything illegal on the sites he linked to?

Exactly,, that was the dumbest remark in the whole thread..
I merely pointed you to sites where you can find information for those of you who may not be aware of how iTMS really works...


Better remove those posts quick,, before macrumors gets shut down....ahhhhh

 

[lindmar]

The same items that were asked to be pulled from SForge. Although not direct links to the files themselves. His post links to the sites that do have direct links. Never underestimate the power of a company like Apple to try and punish sites like MacRumors for small infractions.

If the software violates their rights on the songs, then it is just plain common sense not to have direct links to that software or sites. Even if Apple has not won or even taken the issue to court yet.

Go do a networksolutions.com "whois" on MacRumors.. it's run here in the US, where we do have Copyright laws that are actually enforced at times.

Why even post something dumb that could remotely get a great site like this in trouble? The rumors alone get it into issues with some Apple folks I am sure. Now lets help pirate music from here to?! Uhmmm yeah.. no thanks...
🙄

Did you even look at the links??
Brutal man... Downhill Battle, Music Activism , dedicated to music rights or artists and consumers.....
canfli.org - Canadian File Sharing Organization, merely discussion of rights.

If they shut macrumors down for having a discussion about p2p and copyright then we can start to really worry....

 

[bumfilter]

The only reason major labels need to pay for PR is no-one wants the music and the music can't sell itself. So they spend loads on promoting some generic pop band until twelve year olds give in.

 

[baby duck monge]

I really don't haven any comment on this, as you need a credit card to buy iTMUS songs; but if you didn't need a credit card to use your free song from Pepsi, then I would have nearly 50 songs. I'm a pretty sad Apple fan, I haven't bought one iTMS song 🙁

i set up an account without giving my CC#. there was an option not to enter that, but rather to put it in on a purchase by purchase basis. i have still not given them my number, though i have gotten a few songs with the pepsi/itunes promotion.

 

[603]

here's what you can do to fight the music industry pigopoly...

1) buy your records direct from the labels. prices are often lower. you sometimes get free stuff like stickers and posters. cut out the middleman. decentralization is the key to just about every problem. dealing directly with the label prevents the bottlenecks that stifle creativity and prevent good music from coming to market.

2) if you insist on buying compressed audio files over the internet, go to a place like Audio Lunchbox. their downloads are offered as DRM-free OGG and high-bitrate MP3 files. they might not have a billion songs like iTunes, but likewise, there's loads of stuff on Audio Lunchbox that i can't find on iTunes. don't let your digital rights get "managed" - support places that sell music without strings attached.

3) if you insist on downloading "por gratis" from P2P networks, and the music is good, send the band some cash. do it anonymously, because more than likely, your cash will be going through some A&R drone who won't appreciate you trying to make him obsolete.

4) if you insist on making copies of your friends' CDs, send the band some cash too. if you don't think it's worth $17.99 for an album, well, how about $15? even $10?

5) ...and for the love of all that is good in this world, don't complain that today's music isn't any good. there has never been so much interesting, compelling, innovative music being made as there is today. i make music myself and i frequently trade MP3s with people living in Argentina, Brazil, and New Zealand. what's for sale in the store represents about 10% of the music being made. don't accept the musical world that Apple, Tower, Virgin, or anybody else wants to sell you.