please apple make varied tips like surface pen

Discussion in 'iPad Accessories' started by VesselA, Dec 1, 2015.

  1. VesselA macrumors regular

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    #1
    really hope apple produce alternative tips with different degrees of softness and tackiness like the surface pen
     
  2. pirateRACE macrumors 6502

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    #2
    Great point. Is anything stopping a third party?
     
  3. dejo Moderator

    dejo

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  4. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #4
    i got a matte screen protector. problem solved. feels like pencil on paper now.
     
  5. GrindedDown macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    Yeah having a matte screen protector has been awesome. There is a slight degradation in screen clarity, but the feel of it is awesome. It is a joy to use with the pencil. There is just enough friction to slow the pencils movement.

    I tried a matte screen protector from elander on Amazon, but it certainly wasn't a matte finish, so I returned it. Just got the tech armor matte protector. Overall it is very nice.
     
  6. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #7
  7. VesselA thread starter macrumors regular

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    #8
    I put a matte protector on my ipad air a while ago, and while I liked the way it removed reflections, the grainy crystaline effect began to annoy me on white backgrounds. I peeled it back and the white was so pure and clean I ended up removing it. If there was a matte protector which didn't have so much graininess that would be great
     
  8. VesselA thread starter macrumors regular

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    #9
    I notice you have the surface pro 4, I am also testing it just now, considering keeping. I notice though on the surface there is considerable offset, parallax, especially when holding pen at a slight angle and drawing on the left side of screen, its something you could adjust to, but the ntrig tech doesn't seem as good yet as apple pencil and wacom (I have a samsung note pro 12.2) - to me the pen offset from the digital ink is the most important thing, how have you noticed it with them all?
     
  9. fenjen macrumors 6502

    fenjen

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    #10
    I was considering the Surface too... but then I tried the pen..
    The whole I was considering either the iPad or Surface is because I wanted a device to take notes on (and to draw a little, but that's just a hobby so that was a secondary concern). The offset on the surface is quite bad to me and it is really disruptive while writing to me. Also the squiggly lines when drawing diagonal make my handwriting look worse than it is (I write moderately slow). The accuracy is just not there and I don't get how the pen got so many good reviews, it's just not good in my honest opinion. The apple pencil on the other hand, while a bit slippery, is so much better than the surface pen.

    I can't imagine that third party manufacturers would skip on making any tip replacements, as it seems quite easy to do. We'll just have to wait a little I guess/
     
  10. GrindedDown macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    Yeah that is really the only issue with it. Otherwise I love everything else about it. For me, there is an adjustment period to using a matte screen protector. Eventually I will get used to it.

    I certainly don't blame you for taking it off though. If you happen to find a matte screen protector that is better with the "rainbow" effect, feel free to share it.
     
  11. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #12
    I just look at the cursor. i dont find parallax distracting. i find the apple pencil lacking in precision because it does not have a cursor. IPP also has parallax, and the pressure is not very good.. and the apple palm rejection is horrible for my hands. bugs bugs bugs. i'm hardly using my IPP unless im in bed or to lazy to grab my cintiq. but, i am used to wacom- so that is my bias. nothing really compares yet IMO.

    but if i could only pick one tablet, ipad pro or SP4 i would get the SP4 because the software is much more capable. my ipad just feels like a toy and the software is still so buggy. maybe Ipad pro 2 will be the winner for me. the pens, to me, are so close in performance i care more about software capabilities and ergonomics.

    that said, im only using the companion and the ipad pro. with 95% of my time on the companion. why? because wacom is better for my needs, and the apple is great for painting in bed. the SP4 has been confiscated by my girlfriend who is a photographer.
     
  12. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #13
    try a photodon matte sample pack. it comes with 4 or 5 different samples of matte protectors to try- with varying grain. better screen quality will have less grain- its a compromise until apple makes a better surface. my wacom cintiq 27 has glass that is textured but totally clear. this is ideal. and so is the Surface 4 tip kit.
     
  13. VesselA thread starter macrumors regular

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    #14
    Oh I hate seeing the cursor and was so glad windows 10 allowed you to turn it off or I would have avoided the surface 4. I havent noticed any issues with palm rejection on the ipp, and the parallax seems perfect to me, the ink comes out just where I would expect, but on the surface pen its a good 1 millimetre to the right of the tip when drawing on the left side of display, which is really offputting.

    Ive not used a cintiq but the samsung note 12.2 uses wacom technology and there is not much visible parallax on that either and very little jitter.

    The best art app I used was photoshop on surface pro, but the 1mm parallax and horrible jitter was dissapointing. Apple pencil to me was on a par with the wacom note pro, the only annoyance with apple pencil is the hard tip when conacting display, hopefully softer tips will be made.

    Aside from photoshop the choice of art apps for windows was really poor. I downloaded artrage and its not even optimised for sharper displays so there is horrible jagged edges on the brushes, even on the desktop version. Bamboo is a great app if you have pressure sensitivity, but it is so poorly optimised for windows you have to press so hard to get a harder stroke the display distorts. I tried another full desktop app, but because they're not optimised for a tablet display, all the clutter of windows reduces the size of your canvas significantly, compared to something like procreate in ipad which is so clear and intuitive in it's layout.

    I've ordered the surface pen tip kit so maybe that will improve the offset, but so far to me the apple pencil and its optimised apps like procreate and graphic are the best combo I've tried for digital art and drawing.
     
  14. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #15
    interesting. i find the Ipad pro to be the worst of the bunch i have- because of the poor software and the bugs. please tell me you are joking about the lack of software on windows, or mac desktops. i use corel painter, photoshop/illustrator, clip studio paint, and sketchbook pro on my workstations. they all have tablet modes for windows that work perfectly... is a tablet mode even necessary when you have a precision stylus? not for me. touch is for toys. these are also full applications so they dont compare at all to procreate. procreate is nice and simple but very limited. touch interface is slow- and does not work well with a stylus. Its fine for most digital art noobs but not so great for people who need photoshop level of control- or most working pro's.

    I actually turned on the cursor for drawing in procreate because of the lack of accuracy and my inability to get tilt to work well. this helped me a bit predict the size of the brush. i kept getting uncontrolled blobs. i wish i had a cursor all the time, because there is still parallax and offset on the IPP.

    your lucky you dont have issues with palm rejection. all the apps i have tried have major issues.

    how do you like the small canvas pixel dimensions and the limited brush sizes in procreate? its only good for small printed illustrations. the hardware is too limited to do any large HD prints. there are no limits on desktop class hardware and software.

    oh and jitter is not an issue if you just draw faster. if a little parallax and offset annoy you stay away from cintiq, they have this behavior also. maybe in a few years apple will make a pro level art tablet since you cant work around this behavior. i just personally need the pro level software, better pressure, advanced drivers, barrel rotation, and working palm rejection of the wacom stylus on a cintiq.
     
  15. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #16
    all those apps i mentioned have mode toggle for full screen modes- this removes the user interface. you should take some classes, this is basic photoshop UI stuff you are missing. its completely up to you and your own customization how you want the working space to look. on my companion, i just bind a key in the wacom desktop control center and can easily switch between interface and non interface modes with an express key.
     
  16. VesselA, Dec 18, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015

    VesselA thread starter macrumors regular

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    #17
    yeah. I downloaded and free trial of corel painter and found it crap and too basic. Again screen clutter to have access to your tools which reduced the working canvas on the surface down to half the size and I didn't see a way to quickly remove all the massive clunky interface elements quickly as you claim. Also the UI was ugly and looked stuck in the 80's, compared to procreate which is so sleak and just has what you need available, not massive boxes that take up more space than they need to. Also painter's brushes were unimpressive, maybe you could spend hours tweaking them, but as they were there was no decent watercolour effect. My main dissapointment with painter was how large and ugly the user interface was, which took up most of the display.

    sketchbook pro is pretty crap too in my view, the brushes are poor, maybe ok if all you are doing is airbrushing and sketches.

    clip studio is catering to anime art if im not mistaken, I was looking at that yesterday, but doubt it has decent brushes.

    I will credit photoshop with being very good, and it does have the ability to put your canvas full screen and the user interface elements are much more stylish and small on screen, photoshop worked the best from what I tried which is quite sad as it costs over £100 $ a year and you dont even own it.

    maybe you just got unlucky with palm rejection on ipad, or a defective unit, I saw a forum post of someone getting terrible palm rejection issues, but that was an issue with the device, works pretty flawlessly as standard.

    from the testing I've done procreate is capable of producing just as detailed and good quality art as photoshop, which can equally be printed for professional work. Procreate current limit is A4 I think but the ppi mean it could be printed out A3 and still be really sharp. You'd need to print something reslly massive to start noticing pixels. Procreate is simple, but powerful and flexible in the ability to create your own brushes and pencils, you can vary every factor and import textures, its not really limited or a toy in that sense. maybe you haven't explored it enough to know that.

    Also the procreate apple pencil combo is aguably more professional as you don't have the crappy amateurish pen offset and jitter you do on the surface pro and cintiq. ( I was unaware the cintiq had offset and jitter like the surface, I thought it would have nailed those issues considering how long its been around and how expensive it is. I was assuming it has the same implementation as the samsung note pro, which has almost zero jitter and offset, but maybe that was tweaking samsung did)

    you can remove jitter by faster strokes, but that is a compromise which takes practice, and also removes a feature of being able to do some slow deliberate line drawing and curves. the surface pen in photoshop is embarassingly bad for jitter, compare a slow line with apple pencil, its almost as good as a fast line.

    I really wonder if all your blobs and glitches may be down to an issue with your unit, because there is no palm rejection issue whem I'm using it (and no need to buy a glove) - in fact I was set to return any device which had palm rejection issues as that is a major annoyance.
     
  17. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #18
    haha, you sound like i insulted you mom or something. look, i have a BFA and am on my way to finishing my MA in Fine art, while i make six figures doing illustration for advertising. i cant make a living with the ipad, that's why its not pro to me. no pro's i know can get away with only using this tablet for work. the software is too limited. its more geared for pro-sumers.

    you might want to take some classes, because you still dont know what you are talking about with the corel software. these packages take years to learn. the interface you hate, is what makes it pro level. its totally customization and you can hide it with a button or click. comparing a phone/tablet painting app to something like corel is silly. procreate is a nice simple painting package with a decent brush engine. But, its nothing special. It is the only option for Apple fanboys, so maybe that is why its special for you? corel is complicated and that's what makes it so powerful. your art will look less generic in the full featured pro software. Corel is the best i have ever seen for simulating natural media- especially watercolor effects- but you will need a very powerful computer to get the simulation, the IPP will never be able to do is possible in corel. check out android jones art. he does things with computer art than no one has seen before. you cant do this on the IPP.

    procreate paints well, but is nothing special. i have made custom brushes. its novel, but again is not that much better than the sketchbook pro brush engine. All software can make custom brushes. i only use sketchbook pro for drawing sometimes because it has the best perspective guides, and ellipse tools i have ever used. its a dream to draw vehicles and objects with. Perspective grid construction is second to none- i can make spherical grids in seconds- that used to take hours with pencil and paper. sure not every one needs those types of grids, but you cant to this at all on the IPP. Procreate perspective grids are basic and unrefined. i paint in photoshop once im done drawing.

    If you only want to print small works Procreate is fine, like I said the pixel size is limited, and on a high end giclee printer @350DPI you can only print 21x23 inches (roughly calculated in my head- but thats close). this is good for most hobbyist and some illustration, but again, i print much larger for fine art projects. so the IPP is not pro enough for me all the time.

    ill keep my 27" cintiq because it has zero gitter, far better pressure, and i can run any software i want. a little parallax is not an issue because of a cursor. it takes a day to get used to it. again, software that saves time is king, i would lose huge money if i tried to use only the IPP and its gimped hardware and software. Cintiq is pro, like it or not the IPP changes nothing, except offering poorer people another choice. oh, and cintiq offers tilt and barrel rotation. i can make effects you cant on the IPP.

    it seems to me, you think pro devices need to be pretty and run pretty looking software. im not sure what you are doing, but i could care less how the software looks, only how powerful it is. this saves me time and i make more money. Basically, i have no limits with a cintiq, but on the IPP you are restricted by the very same interface you say is superior. do you like limits?

    OSX on a tablet with much more powerful hardware would be ideal, but apple wont make that for now. so it back to the windows tablet pc camp for me. but i do enjoy my IPP sometimes. its ideal for painting/drawing in bed. or for taking out to do some plein air painting. it has excellent battery life, not much lag, and best in class parallax. you can make some nice paintings and drawings on it- as long as you dont mind the printing size limits. but can i work on it for my clients or a gallery? Nope! Maybe someone doing book cover painting, or simple illustrations could make it work. but they will still need to have a good computer with photoshop or something on it to finish up the color conversion/adjustments. thats why its not pro level yet for the majority of working artist.
     
  18. VesselA, Dec 20, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2015

    VesselA thread starter macrumors regular

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    #19
    thats funny because I began the conversation being polite and asking your opinion and then you became rather butthurt and sarcastic earlier on about me taking basic classes. Hide user interface is tab, which doesn't work so well when you are using a tablet like the surface pro without the keyboard. Yes you can go into the menus but it is just more refined and intuitive on procreate, immediate four finger tap on screen.

    the presets on painter were very poor, maybe you can tweak things and get better results, but off the bat the brushes and pencil were bad. All the panels are far larger than they need to be and they could simplify the overall design without removing the capabilities.

    it is probably not as bad on a larger screen, but on the surface pro 4 it drastically reduces workspace if you have any panels open.

    And no its not the panels I hate that make it professional, the same degree of options could be provided with a much more sleek and streamlined UI, that doesn't have unnecessary bulky padding making it take up more room than it needs like its stuck in the 80s. Photoshop CC is a good example of how to make compact and sleek panels and UI, corel really need clean up their act on that and come into the 21st century.

    It sounds like you need a course in procreate, or to explore it more, because there's a lot of personalised tweaking you can do with the brushes, creating your own and importing textures and so on.

    perspective grids are an irrelevance to me, as I'm doing art and don't need training wheels.

    In reality 300dpi at A4 will print out much larger without any noticable pixelation, in would be interesting to experiment to see how big actually. Also considering how many layers are still possible at this size and how powerful the ipad pro is I would expect them to increase the maximum canvas size and dpi.

    Have you tried zooming in and out on the ipp? no desktop app can match the speed and fluency of it, which really adds to immersion and workflow.

    Also you have the tilt shading feature, apple pencil may be unique in this, great for washing in backgrounds snd shading.

    To me the most important thing for a stylus is parallax, and apple nailed it, which I thought they would, as Johnny Ive wouldn't want his name attached to something of poor quality. The ntrig technology sadly just isn't there yet. This is annoying because if the surface pen was as good as the apple pencil I wouldn't be bothering buying the ipad pro.

    In terms of art you can produce every bit as unique and good work on the ipp with procreate and apple pencil as with photoshop or corel, the only limit is your ability and currently a slight limit on canvas size, which I'm sure will increase. Yet even with the sizes currently available they are big enough for printing out sharp as A3, A2 and probably larger without any really noticable fuzziness.

    There is also astropad which I have yet to try, but as I have photoshop CS4 on a macbook pro this will be very interesting to try with the ipad pro.
     
  19. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

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    #20
    pro tip: there are apps you can download that create virtual buttons that you can bind to any keyboard command- on SP4- one click- panels go away! you work on full screen mode! i dont need this, because the cintiq has express keys and also has drivers that can pull up virtual menu's, its all built in- because its a tablet made for artists and its much better for those purposed compared to SP4 and the IPP. you can run full photoshop or painter without a keyboard. you might also want to check out the wacom express remote. it works on any PC, and is much more intuitive and faster than always having to reach for the screen to pan/zoom/whatever. for on the go, touch is nice, but most pro's use keyboards or the remote because its significantly faster than a touch interface. i get paid by how much i accomplish by the hour- so this matters allot. there is also a tablet mode for corel. again, its a difficult program to master, but its well worth it as you can do art faster and better in this software.

    im still at a loss how anyone can think procreate is better than photoshop or corel. its simpler and prettier for sure. yes, i read the whole manual, texture brushes are nice if that's what you are into (a feature PS and corel both do- and do better), but what about robust selection tools, masks/quickmasks, alpha channels, rulers/guides, transformation/warp tools, custom shape tools, file management/color conversion? i could go on and on about features that are missing in procreate that i use every day. I fail to see how a nice brush engine is replacing those features pro's need.

    Also, can you explain your comment about perspective tools/guides being training wheels? Moebius, Sid Mead, Scott Robinson all use perspective tools and guides. They each have forgotten more about art than you will ever know. Sure not everyone uses perspective, some people just copy photos or life. But this is the easiest thing to do in art, everyone can copy life or photo's. If you want to draw from you imagination with realism, you need perspective grids. Of course, some people work in primitive, outsider, or graffiti art styles and wont need perspective because they draw like children. very cool art indeed. I like those styles, but you cant really rate whats art and what is not. Perspective is useful in illustration, comics, gaming, Hollywood entertainment design, and industrial design. Are you saying people doing that work are not making art?

    I played around with the max size in procreate. its 8000x8375 pixels max. with two layer max! its a memory limitation. max printed size @ 350dpi is 22.85" x 23.9" or 58.06cm x 60.78cs @350 DPI. this is ok but rather small. if you lower the DPI to enlarge you will lose quality. not a good practice, but you might get away with it- but trained eyes might notice. your sizes will be larger if your printer is 300DPI but my local printer is 350 so i print at that resolution. I wish, there was no limits. my cintiq companion has zero DPI or pixel size limits......cause you know its made for artists.

    Yes zooming is nice on IPP. But SKetchbook pro on my companion is just as fluid. so is corel. PHotoshop has a slight lag, but works well. not really an issue for me since i use express remote or keyboard. i get paid for my speed so touch is not good for me- its MUCH slower. this might not matter to hobbyist painters, but i would lose money.

    Tilt, wow, welcome to 1995 wacom features. indeed, apple has implemented it well. i Personally dont use it much. it does not feel like a real pencil (i run a life drawing class every-week- i use pencil most of the time). but it does do nice shading. Maybe the next pencil will feature rotation like wacom does. i use that feature allot, its really handy with custom texture and or shaped brushes. gives you much more edge control. overall, its a tilt is a gimmick i can live without and is not necessary like real software is.

    Please show me someone who makes art as good as android jones or sparth but on the IPP? Just look at what art is included with the procreate. nice, but simple paintings. nothing special. you could do this in any medium. you cant replicate Jones or sparths styles on a IPP because it simply cant do selections/masks/warps/transformations well, nor does it do custom shapes as vector layers. And the canvas limits do matter when printing large with so much digital detail. Sure those guys could make good art on it, because they can make good art on anything, but the medium can also enhance a painting. like the difference from egg tempura and oil paint. oils is better looking, faster, and easier. like it or not, a wintab is better than a IPP for the same reasons.

    I could make as good of paintings with oil paints, but i dont because digital is so much faster. IPP goes the wrong direction, dumbing down the digital workflow (making it slower), making it more painterly for noobs. but takes away the features that add speed , complexity, and new modes of expression that makes digital art worthwhile.

    Parallax, come on. its not a big deal to me. i could paint on a device with an inch of parallax as long as the software is capable. Pro's have been making great art for 2.5 decades with pens that have minor parallax, and now apple comes along and acts like it has reinvented stylus because it has a little bit better parallax. heck no, i dont buy that marketing hype. IPP still has parallax, and lacks accuracy when inking because apple is arrogant and thinks no one will notice the gap. You are just repeating marketing catch phrases that have no real world merit. I hate inking on this thing. Its good enough for painting. but we need a cursor for more accuracy, because there will always be parallax on digital. I call it the digital disconnect. Its still present on IPP. its the best so far. but not even close to analogue media.

    This Johnny guy, hes not even an artist. lol, who cares what he thinks. he cant even make a good stylus for professional artists yet. Instead he gives us this gimped consumer device, and you come here and defend his wonderful decisions.

    Good luck with astropad. I tried it on a rMBP. there is no way to transmit retina resolution @ 24 bit. you will get lots of lag. sampling artifacts. and photoshop on mac has no tablet features, it has a tiny interface. The IPP has no video capture card, so the app eats up CPU power of your computer. you could maybe do some photo retouching, but i found it useless for painting with.
     
  20. VesselA thread starter macrumors regular

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    #21
    "pro tip: there are apps you can download that create virtual buttons that you can bind to any keyboard command- on SP4- one click- panels go away! you work on full screen mode! i dont need this, because the cintiq has express keys and also has drivers that can pull up virtual menu's, its all built in- because its a tablet made for artists and its much better for those purposed compared to SP4 and the IPP. you can run full photoshop or painter without a keyboard. you might also want to check out the wacom express remote. it works on any PC, and is much more intuitive and faster than always having to reach for the screen to pan/zoom/whatever. for on the go, touch is nice, but most pro's use keyboards or the remote because its significantly faster than a touch interface. i get paid by how much i accomplish by the hour- so this matters allot. there is also a tablet mode for corel. again, its a difficult program to master, but its well worth it as you can do art faster and better in this software."

    Well that is good there is a workaround to assign virtual buttons, but nicer if it was built into the app, or if microsoft had it as an option for the surfaces. I don't like the idea of using a keyboard at all, I find the interaction with fingers more intuitive and quicker. Really, you are being a bit over dramatic regarding how much time it would save you - you are talking less than seconds of a difference, and who wants a rushed piece of true artwork anyway? - maybe if you are on a deadline for some type of graphic art, but not for fine art, its better to take your time to do something really worthwhile.

    im still at a loss how anyone can think procreate is better than photoshop or corel. its simpler and prettier for sure. yes, i read the whole manual, texture brushes are nice if that's what you are into (a feature PS and corel both do- and do better), but what about robust selection tools, masks/quickmasks, alpha channels, rulers/guides, transformation/warp tools, custom shape tools, file management/color conversion? i could go on and on about features that are missing in procreate that i use every day. I fail to see how a nice brush engine is replacing those features pro's need.

    I disagree that procreate is simpler, it is just as capable in terms of drawing and painting, photoshop adds other features such as adjusting, filters, tools - but these are additional affects not part of the painting.
    I could transfer the procreate picture to photoshop and tweak it there also.
    You keep implying a pro can't use procreate - well a pro artist can, and produce sellable work on it. If your profession is more graphic design then you would find procreate limiting, but then there are actually ios apps capable of pro level design, such as graphic. You seem to presume ownership of the term "pro" which is rather arrogant - Any fine artist who gets used to digital work could definitely produce "pro" quality art on procreate and sell it.


    Also, can you explain your comment about perspective tools/guides being training wheels? Moebius, Sid Mead, Scott Robinson all use perspective tools and guides. They each have forgotten more about art than you will ever know. Sure not everyone uses perspective, some people just copy photos or life. But this is the easiest thing to do in art, everyone can copy life or photo's. If you want to draw from you imagination with realism, you need perspective grids. Of course, some people work in primitive, outsider, or graffiti art styles and wont need perspective because they draw like children. very cool art indeed. I like those styles, but you cant really rate whats art and what is not. Perspective is useful in illustration, comics, gaming, Hollywood entertainment design, and industrial design. Are you saying people doing that work are not making art?

    You sound rather stupid with comments like that "they've forgotten more about art than you will ever know" - seriously, you sound like a 13 year old who's had his favourite pro wrestler insulted. Art doesn't work that way. There is no textbook or rules to art, not really an academic subject (apart from history) - you have your natural talent, then you can practice and improve and develop. Equating anything learned or forgotten as Art really is a delusion.
    Yes some people use guides for a living, but they are more designers, or working on cartoons - Newsflash, you don't need guides for fine art, in fact having them is cheating in some respect, part of the character of a paintings are the variations you deliver through your natural interpretation. I wouldn't use guides for a piece of fine art, it would make the work more sterile and take some of the soul out of it.


    I played around with the max size in procreate. its 8000x8375 pixels max. with two layer max! its a memory limitation. max printed size @ 350dpi is 22.85" x 23.9" or 58.06cm x 60.78cs @350 DPI. this is ok but rather small. if you lower the DPI to enlarge you will lose quality. not a good practice, but you might get away with it- but trained eyes might notice. your sizes will be larger if your printer is 300DPI but my local printer is 350 so i print at that resolution. I wish, there was no limits. my cintiq companion has zero DPI or pixel size limits......cause you know its made for artists.

    Yes the max canvas size goes up much larger than A4, with a reduction in layers, but I am not clear on the DPI system as it doesn't say. at over 20" you could probably get a poster size print without much distortion.
    Procreate is made for artists also, hopefully they will increase this size its capable of.


    Yes zooming is nice on IPP. But SKetchbook pro on my companion is just as fluid. so is corel. PHotoshop has a slight lag, but works well. not really an issue for me since i use express remote or keyboard. i get paid for my speed so touch is not good for me- its MUCH slower. this might not matter to hobbyist painters, but i would lose money.

    A serious artist who is creating serious work is not rushing things out on a time limit. You sound like more of a hobbyist artist who is working more in the design / cartoon field.

    Tilt, wow, welcome to 1995 wacom features. indeed, apple has implemented it well. i Personally dont use it much. it does not feel like a real pencil (i run a life drawing class every-week- i use pencil most of the time). but it does do nice shading. Maybe the next pencil will feature rotation like wacom does. i use that feature allot, its really handy with custom texture and or shaped brushes. gives you much more edge control. overall, its a tilt is a gimmick i can live without and is not necessary like real software is.

    It's more than a gimmick, it can be used for washing in large areas and as part of watercolour art nicely.

    Please show me someone who makes art as good as android jones or sparth but on the IPP? Just look at what art is included with the procreate. nice, but simple paintings. nothing special. you could do this in any medium. you cant replicate Jones or sparths styles on a IPP because it simply cant do selections/masks/warps/transformations well, nor does it do custom shapes as vector layers. And the canvas limits do matter when printing large with so much digital detail. Sure those guys could make good art on it, because they can make good art on anything, but the medium can also enhance a painting. like the difference from egg tempura and oil paint. oils is better looking, faster, and easier. like it or not, a wintab is better than a IPP for the same reasons.

    Anything your idols can produce they should be able to reproduce on procreate - I googled one of your idols and that is perfectly possible on procreate, zooming in to get detail done is much more fluid and controlled than on any other device.

    I could make as good of paintings with oil paints, but i dont because digital is so much faster. IPP goes the wrong direction, dumbing down the digital workflow (making it slower), making it more painterly for noobs. but takes away the features that add speed , complexity, and new modes of expression that makes digital art worthwhile.

    You are confusing a cleaner UI with dumbed down - there is lots of customisability if you tap on the brush, it just isn't all over the display as a window. in fact the greater cleanness of UI speeds things up, as you're not hunting loads of menus.

    Parallax, come on. its not a big deal to me. i could paint on a device with an inch of parallax as long as the software is capable. Pro's have been making great art for 2.5 decades with pens that have minor parallax, and now apple comes along and acts like it has reinvented stylus because it has a little bit better parallax. heck no, i dont buy that marketing hype. IPP still has parallax, and lacks accuracy when inking because apple is arrogant and thinks no one will notice the gap. You are just repeating marketing catch phrases that have no real world merit. I hate inking on this thing. Its good enough for painting. but we need a cursor for more accuracy, because there will always be parallax on digital. I call it the digital disconnect. Its still present on IPP. its the best so far. but not even close to analogue media.

    The more parallax the more amateurish and unintuitive the experience. The more it feels like a computer and less like actual natural art. Of course it is possible to adjust, and eventually get used to it, but then part of your brain is trained for an offset and any real life work will feel odd, there will be an unnatural conflict between the two. It is much better having a digital device which has no parallax, it just adds to the naturalness and realism of the art.

    I'm not just accepting Apple's claims here - I have tested surface pro 4 and IPP objectively. I would even have sent the IPP back if there was not a noticeable difference. Surface pro 4 is more capable as a computer all round, so I would actually prefer to have everything in one device, but there is clearly a much larger offset on it. I am talking 1mm to the right of the tip, the apple pencil is exactly where you would expect it to be. If you think they are similar, you must just not be very observant or years of using the cintiq has distorted your perception.


    This Johnny guy, hes not even an artist. lol, who cares what he thinks. he cant even make a good stylus for professional artists yet. Instead he gives us this gimped consumer device, and you come here and defend his wonderful decisions.

    What Ive & apple created with the pencil is much more precise and natural artistic experience than the surface pen. And I have tested them objectively (actually wanting to prefer the surface, but the pencil is just better). The only thing bad about the pencil is how hard it is, but this will be sorted with softer pen tips, even if they have to come from third parties.

    Really, it's the surface pen which is gimped, in terms of being a precise artistic instrument. The apple pencil actually feels like an artistic tool, like a paintbrush or piece of chalk, whereas the surface pen feels like a pen, with the barrel maybe being too thick and the clip. the clip is practical but makes it feel more like a pen for jotting notes than an art tool
     
  21. Swiss-G macrumors 6502a

    Swiss-G

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2010
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    #22
    Interesting discussion......

    I see you are again resorting to insults in order to try and win an argument. Dani provides a link to his/her work which demonstrates s/he knows what s/he is talking about.

    Perhaps you could provide a link to your work, so the community can decide for themselves, whether or not your claims are valid.
     
  22. DaniJoy macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2015
    Location:
    California
    #23
    i just though this was a lively discussion didnt mean to offend @VesselA. i would love to see the art. im sure its great. we are all passionate about what we do.

    i do like my Ipad pro more and more. its great for replicating a simple painting workflow, but i still wish i had more powerful software. of course, YMMV depending what you want to do. Mine is great for sketching/painting comics or illustrations. I also do plein air painting on it. thats fine art. im sure many pro artists can make professional work on Ipad, especially if they have another computer to do color conversion.

    Yes i do illustration for advertising, but im a aspiring fine artist. no shame in that! i have to eat. i would still pick the cintiq for fine art, because it has no limits. I need the more powerful hardware and software for what i want to do. of course, YMMV.

    the fine art vs comics hubris is rather silly, since so many fine artist work as illustrators and also produce great fine art. Like Ad Reinheart's black paintings. he did cartoons also. Also, roy lichtenstein copied other comic artists and is a famous fine artist (a total fraud IMO). Modern art merged pop culture and fine art several decades ago. no one cares if you can paint like Rembrandt, that's already been done. i always thought contemporary fine art was more interested in novelty. Its always chasing the illusion of a avant garde style. I cant see how a IPad could deliver anything avant garde. It has too many limits. But who knows, i hope someone does it! i think if all you want to do is paint like water color or oils for fine art, you are better off just using water color or oil paints. There is allot of people who dont take digital art serious yet in the fine art world. its tough nut to crack. its would be cool to see an ipad painting in a gallery, actually David Hockney did this, but he's prolific in every medium. not saying you cant make good art on it, its just very limited by the software. Masks, transformations, custom shapes, pen tool, are painting tools, not just photo-tools.

    Its rather ironic you state there is no rules to art, and then proceed to define a what you think is fine art and what is design. its fine if you like eyeballing things and spending more time fixing mistakes, but i like the grid for accuracy and time savings. i dont always need grids, but its nice to have them when i do.

    My hero's in art are Picasso, for what he did for artistic freedom, Matisse for what he did with color theory, Andy Warhol, for what he did with questioning consumer culture, and Louise Bourgeois for her amazing confessional art and all the psychodynamic visual theory she brought to light.

    I like faster mediums because i get paid to work fast, and i like making allot of art. Nothing wrong with working with slower mediums, unless you are getting paid, its not so good then. a keyboard and short cuts save an hour or more a day at least.

    Ive also been playing more with the surface pen today, i can make just as good art on it as the ipad. its very accurate and the software is very good. its really just a matter of personal preference and software needed. both are great tablets. but i like my cintiq companion and the ipad pro the most. i use the ipad for light sketching and painting, the cintiq for work and personal fine art projects that need more powerful hardware and software. i also oil paint allot in the summers....because no computer offers the feel and accuracy of real media........
     
  23. PattyMc macrumors regular

    PattyMc

    Joined:
    Mar 7, 2012
    #24
    DaniJoy, I'm glad that you are enjoying your IPP more, I too look forward to IOS 10 and software development that can really put the hardware in the Pro to its best capabilities.
     
  24. Bbqthis macrumors 6502a

    Bbqthis

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2015
    Location:
    Bay Area, CA
    #25
    tl;dr- it doesn't fit into a professional workflow I'm familiar with so it MUST be awful for everyone's professional workflow.

     

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