Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Community Discussion' started by killerrobot, Jun 23, 2007.
this conversation is over. delete me please moderators.
Maybe you'd care to explain what the discussion is about??
I think perhaps we need to be able to speak spanish to understand.
Here's a quote from one of the most famous linguists ever, Ferdinand de Saussure. Perhaps you've read about him before. "A linguistic system is a series of differences of sound combined with a series of differences of ideas."
The whole problem with you saying dialects are the same is that the word "dialect" implies differences. Here are some definitions for you from RAE-
1. m. Ling. Sistema lingüístico considerado con relación al grupo de los varios derivados de un tronco común.
2. m. Ling. Sistema lingüístico derivado de otro, normalmente con una concreta limitación geográfica, pero sin diferenciación suficiente frente a otros de origen común.
3. m. Ling. Estructura lingüística, simultánea a otra, que no alcanza la categoría social de lengua.
Notice all the emphasis on difference. If you try calling two dialects the same, they wouldn't be dialects in the first place to begin with because they would have no differences between them. Same with the word "language".
2. f. Sistema de comunicación verbal y casi siempre escrito, propio de una comunidad humana.
Does everyone in Northeastern Spain (and the Balearic Islands) use the same language , llengua meitxa. Yes. Does that mean it's the same. NO. Hence the reason they also had to use the word, linguistic system. All the romance languages have the same root, and therefore ALSO form a linguistic system. Is Spanish the same as French, or Italian, or Romanian, or Portuguese? No. They fit the definition of a linguistic system.
Also, I´ve spoken with people from Mallorca, Menorca, and Ibiza, and sure they can understand each other to some extent. But it's definitely not the same dialect. BTW, way not to read about the differences between the dialects in the gramática normativa valencia .
As far as this:
1 Anyone that still uses the Wikipedia for their research, needs to learn how to do real research and come up with real resources. Wiki, in my opinion and those of all scholars, is nothing more than Sparknotes that's been mixed all up with personal opinions.
2 Population estimates doesn't mean people say castellano. I used mine to show 40 million < 400 million. I think you need real sources to even try to claim this AMAZING 50-50 split you decided on. Just because you decide to split it 50-50 doesn't make it fifty-fifty.
I've traveled all of South America and I only heard the word castellano maybe a few times during thousands of conversations. I've lived in Spain for 5 years now, and I've heard it a little more often, but definitely not from everyone, and definitely only from those who had studied languages and literature at the university level.
Generally speaking from my experience, Americans that study Spanish for a semester in Spain and learn the word castellano, start using it to try to impress everyone and make themselves sound more important than the rest of the people that went to study in South America that continue to call it Spanish.
I've read through some of your other posts about the English language and you make some goods points here and there. But you also think you cannot make a mistake and are never wrong. You need to get off your 22 year old, I just got a BA in Spanish high horse, and realize that it's not always how YOU personally see it. If you didn't learn from your undergrad that the hispanic speaking world is about the most complicated and two sided (at the minimum) subject ever, you've got a lot more learning to do.
I've read the other thread, and now this one, and I still don't quite get what point you're trying to make? You refer to having spent a limited time touring South America and scarcely having heard the word "castellano" mentioned or referred to? My experience has been quite different, with either "castellano" or "español" used interchangeably and often.
Is the purpose to discuss the derivatives and epistemology of the use of the word "castellano vs. "español", or are you claiming that "we're all 'castellanos'"? Care to elaborate a little more? Thanks.
@xsedrinam: the thread title, I admit is a little sarcastic. This whole discussion more or less came about because guifa claimed that valenciano and catalán were the "same". I'm saying they are different, because a "dialect" implicitly means difference. Whole bunch of arguments there --take from all of this whatever you want.
As far as castellano vs. español guifa says they are the same. I say they are not and should be carefully used as synonyms. They do portray different meanings, and that for the most part, español is widely more used/accepted than castellano (this last part based on all my experiences--I'd love to hear your opinions.)
What are your experiences with hispanic speakers calling the "spanish" language español vs. castellano? The people that you've spoken to, are they related to education, are they everyday average people or people learning the language? How has your experience been different?
I never intended to say Wikipedia was the be-all end-all of research. However, I also didn't feel like spending hours looking up articles in journals to demonstrate the same information. You've said that Spanish is called "castellano" only by people in Spain and even then not always. The fact is a very large number of people in South America do as well and one that won't be refuted by any source. Right now in my current course of study, only myself and one other student speak with a Spanish (from Spain) dialect. However, both terms are used for the modern language known in English as Spanish, by both foreigners and natives here, from all different countries.
Also, I never said dialects are the same, I said that in this case, the dialects of Catalán, wherever they be spoken, be it Valencia, Cataluña, Eibissa, etc, are dialects of Catalán. Same language, different dialect. I'm not sure how you managed to find a point of contention with this and then argue the same thing?
"The different speeches of all these territories constitute a single language or linguistic system". This is what the Valencia academy has stated. When they say "constitute a single language" they do not mean to say that the dialects of Catalán are the same, they are saying that all of them are dialects, or parts of, or subordinate to, a single language which is Catalán or Valenciano, como quieras llamarlo.
Also, simply because you haven't heard something doesn't mean it's not used. It's like people saying that <em>X</em> country doesn't use vos. I know several people who have gone to, for instance, Bolivia, and said to one of the professors at my university after he asked her if she had become a voseohablante, that she never heard it! What happened most likely is that they didn't expect her as a foreigner to know or understand vos, and ergo didn't use it.
I asked around the department here and, at least for the countries represented, they all agreed with the Wikipedia description of which countries use which term in general. I've done a breif search but didn't see any articles directly treating the topic of the naming of the language.
First off, I'm not 22, and whilst I've been accepted to several doctoral programmes, I've decided to take a break before I matriculate. If you're going to attack me based on my person and background (which is the least constructive method of doing so) at least get the details correct. From someone who earlier stated that English was a co-official language in Cataluña, the believability of your statements is minimal.
Lived in South America for 25 years, so my experiences have moved in and through a pretty wide variety of speakers, from people at beginning levels through PhD levels of education, in various fields and specialties.
I'm consciously trying to recall when or where there has been a distinction made between the two, and it seems more a semantical one or preference rather than anything else.
A couple of "giras" through 8-9 cities in Spain back in '90 and '92 were eye-opening to me as to the regionalistic mindset of the Spaniard though. One of my favorite, from an elderly gentleman in Valencia was, "te cuento con todo respeto, que los de Barthelona, son imbethiles". (accent phonetically added for effect.)
I never said said only by Spaniards. Read carefully. As far as your "that won't be refuted by any source," doesn't make it true does it? Prove I'm not 6 foot 2 and on a swim team.
This is what you said:
So yes, you did call them the same. You even stated two academias backed you up.
Once again, thanks for repeating what I told you in the first place. Also, just checking but did you change your definition of "meitxa" from "same" to "single"? That's a huge linguistic difference.
Thanks for misreading what I've written. I never said I hadn't heard of it being called castellano in other countries other than Spain. Read carefully. Also, I would seriously make sure your "professors" know what they are doing. Where you going to school at?
Well, for someone born in 1985 you're either 21 or 22, huh Mathew. Also this is no argumentum ad hominem. I've admitted my mistakes and my arrogance isn't keeping me from doing so. But, are you ever going to?
Different places in Latin America have different slang/colloquialisms, name of vegetables, different pronounciations, different accents, and even differ in how they call their language. They are all variations of the language of Castilla, not barely understandable dialects.
If you say "español" in a country where people call it "castellano", it will sound foreign, it's not merely an alternative.
You're completely mistaken thinking only a minority call it like that.
Your thread title is wrong. It should be one of two different things:
"Si todos somos castellanos"
"Sí, todos somos castellanos"
My point is that as everyone else here, as well as numerous (though granted not peer-reviewed) sources on-line will all tell you both español and castellano are terms applied to the same language, the onus is more on you to prove the contrary. I've looked around for articles to go one way or the other and found none. I'd be most curious to find a reference to a peer-reviewed published study on which Spanish-speakers call their language what. And, name the swim team and I'll find out whether or not you are. I have strong connections with the swimming world.
I called them the same language, not the same dialect, and am not sure how I can stress that any further. Valencià, Català, Eivissenc, Mallorquí, etc, are all different dialects of the same language that is most commonly known in English as Catalan.
Continuing more quotes from the Valencian Academia:
I think that makes it quite clear. If you'd like to continuing saying that Valencià and Català are two different languages, then be my guest, but please take it up with the Academies and not me.
No, my translation always had that, but before I pointed out that the direct Spanish translation would be "una misma lengua" ("a same language") does not sound right in English. If I said, "Hace mucho tiempo, vivía en Auburn, que es una ciudad al lado de Opelika. He oído que las ciudades han crecido juntas desde cuando me fui, pero al regresar supe que hoy día se forman una misma ciudad.", would you really translate it as "but upon returning I learnt that nowadays they form a same city"? or "a single city"?
No, you didn't say you hadn't ever heard it called that but then you gave a count of 40 M calling it castellano to 400 M calling it español. Spain's population alone is over 40 M, and given that they're the ones who actually have a genuine need to differentiate, it would effectively negate any South Americans from using it. If that's not what you meant to say, please, enlighten me.
I did undergraduate at the University of Alabama at Tuscaloosa and now am doing my masters at Auburn University. The professors I've had have their doctorates from University of Tennessee, University of Texas, Boston University, Universidad de la Habana, University of Wisconson - Madison, Columbia University, UNC at Chapel Hill, University of Kentucky, Georgetown University, UC Santa Barbara, Ohio State University, Indiana University, University of Pittsburgh, Florida State University, and Brown University. So yes, I would think that my professors would know what they're talking about.
So then what did bringing up my age or my academic status have to do with anything? Unless you were planning some sort of argument based around you having doctored yourself in Spanish and thus having some sort of upper hand, all I can see is that you were trying to represent me as someone having just received my degree and eager to shout it to the world, yet, since I got my BA almost two years ago, trust me when I say that is far from the case.
That ought to settle it chaps
@xsedrinam -- I agree, it is a semantical and mainly preference question. But I really doubt (from my personal experience) that half the speakers say castellano to refer to their language. BTW, hilarious story about the valencian -- I got a good kick out of it.
@cube -- you forgot a many a different options:
Sí. Todos somos castellanos.
¡Sí! Todos somos castellanos.
¡Sí! ¡Todos somos castellanos!
¿Sí? ¿Todos somos castellanos?
Also way to quote the exact same thing I quoted from the GNV to prove my point (which is now some how your point???). You need to go back and read carefully. Including the fact that I never said castellano and español were not used interchangeably. I said there's a technical difference and should be used with care. Which you decided to try to shove down my throat claiming that the catalunian and valencian dialects, as well as the ibithenco and every other dialect from the region you could find on wiki, were the same. Now you're saying they are different? Which one is it? You need to get your stories straight. Mine got straightened out few times and I'm willing to admit it, but somehow you still have a huge superiority complex going on because you got a BA in Spanish (which, by the way, I congratulate you on and your continued work in the field), but it doesn't make you automatically right. Until then, this thread is pretty pointless (especially when you end up arguing for what I was saying in the first place, that there's a difference).
@dynamicv -- Thank you.
Well then let's just see who claims what when. As you read you'll see I've always said the same thing with regards to all aspects of our debate, I have not changed positions at all. I said they were different dialects, but the same language re Catalan and Valencian, and that re the terms for the Spanish language, both castellano and español are used, with geography playing a role to some extent in which term is used (and hence similiar to Catalan and Valencia in that there is a single language with two different commonly used names). Anyone is more than welcome to point out where I've strayed from this, but I've not yet seen it.
Catalan has been taught in schools in Catalonia officially for much longer than just last year. An obvious pop-culture representation of this is in L'Auberge Espagnol. The difference is that in 2006, Catalan was deemed the prefered language of the AC. I responded:
You responded that
The Spanish government has since the 1978 Constitution considered Catalan inasmuch as Catalonia has. As per the 1978 constitution,
However, in 2006 this now reads:
Which does not actually change the status of Catalan at all. Now, I'll grant that sure, the dialects of Catalonian known as Catala and Valencia are different (dialects). They are of the same language though. I have never changed from this position. It's hard though since you say that Catalan wasn't considered a language, and only a dialect recently. A dialect of what? Itself? I trust you don't mean to say that Catalan is a dialect of Castilian, neither linguists nor politicians nor the people of Catalonia would agree with that (although as I'm sure you know, the status of Galician, while relatively concretely described as a language, is still considered by some prominent linguists as a dialect of Portuguese
As I'm not familiar with the Catalonian university application process I couldn't comment on it. However, given that the Universitat de Barcelona teaches many of its classes in Catalan, I would have expected part of the exams to be either available or required in Catalan. But again, that is just a conjecture. What this post does show is that your memory is faulty to some extent, as you say here quite definitely that Catalan was not an official language and was not until 2006.
And you got after me for outrageous statistics, this one is just flat out false. Spanish is certainly a dominant language in some cities (Miami, FL) but English is the only official language there. Then again, English is far and away the most widely spoken language, but it has no de jure official status. However, you did mention you were thinking cities and not states.
Upon further review, I'm looking at page 15 in the GNV, and I see no such quote. However, on page 16,
Surely if Valencian is a wholy separate language they'd be refering to altres varietats del dialecte instead of llangua, because as it is it strongly implies Valencian as a dialect of a greater linguistic system, e.g., a language. Note that in most of the language regarding these issues, territories is frequented to mean both provinces of Spain and also those abroad, such as Andorra and parts of Italy. Within this scope, Valencia would be considered a single territory. Also, although used as an example of adjective inflection, note the following statement
Once again, the three majors dialects of a single language. As I had stated earier in another posting,
You challenge my contention
by my earlier statement that
saying that I've used the Academies to say they are "the same". Once again, I have stood by contention that they are the same language as I've stated throughout all of my posts. That particular post did treat the topic of dialects, which as I've stated numerous already they are indeed different (just as is Balearic).
No, you wouldn't exactly say half and half, you'd say one in eleven as you establish your rough numbers: 40 M in the castellano camp, and 400 M in the español, or rather, the not-castellano camp, if we include terms like "chileno" (if you could find that article I'd be interested in reading it. The Constitution of Chile, at least, doesn't specifically name an official language and off hand I'm not sure if it has de jure or de facto status. The numbers I gave were not meant to be exact in any way, just a rough estimate based upon which countries primarily use which term, and their commulative populations. Obviously, not all of Mexico speaks Spanish. In Paraguay, Aymara is more commonly spoken than Spanish. In other words, rough estimates. Adding these up comes up with around 190 M for castellano, and 205 M for not-castellano.
Later when responding to my questioning your numbers, you said that
No, you didn't say only, you said it was basically only used by them. However, that's mincing words. You know what you were implying.
Again to make things more readable without having to flip through sources, and to demonstrate my point:
Here under definition 4, castellano is made synonym to español. Note it says "especially" and not "only" with regards to distinction of other Spanish languages. Definition 6 is why many formal style guidelines (especially those in my field of Siglo de Oro) often suggest against using it unless refering specifically to the historical version of the language, that is, the form as used in, say, the 16th and 17th century.
I've never stated that Valencian is an identical dialect to Balearic or Catalan. A same language yes. You conveniently left off a term when you said "Does that mean it's the same" ... Same what? Same language? Yes, of course. Same dialect? No, that's why I've referenced them as different dialects throughout my posts. Same linguistic system? Define the scope. If we're classifying Spanish and Romanian in a single linguistic system because they had the same root, then surely Spanish and Hindi are the same linguistic system, because they both came from the same proto-Indo-European language (if there ever was a singular language as such)
So what then of the people who study there for years, or the Americans that study Spanish for a semester in Argentina after having been taught the word español in their American classes and come back using castellano almost exclusively? Also I, nor anyone else I know, use the word castellano where others would use Spanish...they're in different languages obviously.
I say they refer to the same language. Obviously there are times (in academic contexts) when the two are used to differentiate modern vs older Spanish, and of course in Spain to differentiate between a language of Spain and the language most of the world knows as Spanish (or the cognate word, espagnole, espanhol, Spanisch, etc). However, I sincerely doubt you or anyone else would, upon hearing a Bolivian tell you, "yo hablo castellano" that they are speaking either A- the dialect of modern Spanish spoken within the confines of Castille, or B- a historical dialect of Spanish. You know that they are telling you that they speak the same language as someone from Mexico, or Spain, or Guatemala. If another Bolivian walks up to you and tells you "yo hablo español", if all else equal (geographically and socioeconomically), the two of them in this case are speaking both the same language and the same dialect. As xsedrinam pointed out:
This is exactly what I'm refering to. Both terms are equivalent in the context of modern spoken languages, even more so outside of Spain since a distinction with the other Spanish languages does not have to be made.
Lastly, I find it odd that you thank dynamicv, when his friend said exactly what I said: they are the same language.
Wait, nevermind. I'm wrong. The world is flat. French fries grow on trees. Thanks for pointing out my terribly wrong world view.
¿Entonces que? ¿Tenemos que hablar todos en español?
No, Tenemos que fumar unas grifas puras y hablar paja en castellano, mi compa.
Jajaja así es hermano, la comunidad que habla español de MacRumors. Podemos hablar ****** de lo que sea y la mayoría no nos dice nada!