Pointers to cold, hard pro-mac facts!

[Soundnerd]

Hi,

I need pointers to former threads, or external sources for helping with the following.

5 Schools with a general media education (Film, Journlism, sound design, advertising, photo at basic level) are now in the process of commonly standarising their computer platform and software selection for approx. 500 Students.
This is regarding all student laptops, studio desktop-computers and classroom computers.

Students and teachers wants Macs.
The centralized IT-department wants PC's. Their argumets are faster computers for lesser price, the alreday common server solutions for roll-outs of software and upgrades.

Now, any pointers to cold hard sources which shows how macs lasts longer, needs less maintanance time, really everything that makes (as we all know) macs cheaper to use over time is extremely welcome.

We already know it's the best solution for all the hidden reasons- software integration, running several operating systems, everything just works, workflow, everyone loves their current macs etc. Needless to say, students and teachers at the 3 schools already using macs very strongly opposes even the thought of having to use PC's...

But i need cold hard facts that will bite at a IT-administrator and cost-administration level.

The computers in question laptop-wise is the Macbook/13" Macbook pro versus the Dell Vostro 3300.

Current software on the schools with macs are (edited for anonymity, but pretty amazing).

vs. PC's with (edited for anonymity, but pretty ok).

Please tell me if this is not the appropriate place for such a question.

thanks!

 

[miles01110]

Students and teachers wants Macs.
The centralized IT-department wants PC's. Their argumets are faster computers for lesser price, the alreday common server solutions for roll-outs of software and upgrades.

Why even bother? If your network is already optimized for Windows, it makes little to no sense to switch over.

But i need cold hard facts that will bite at a IT-administrator and cost-administration level.

The computers in question laptop-wise is the Macbook/13" Macbook pro versus the Dell Vostro 3300.

The Dell Vostro 3300 goes for around $580, the 13" MBP starts at $1200. You'd have to make a pretty spectacular argument to get over that hump in particular, even if it's not the entire story (on either side).

Not to mention there's the whole issue of re-training the staff to support both platforms.

There's a couple of threads I can think of that address issues like this, I'll try to find them.

https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/328188/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/904288/
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/236027/ (older, but the general points are still relevant)

 

[Soundnerd]

miles,

When you figure in the software, and the cost of pro-tools for the pc's(which require an external sound-card to even run.) The difference is about $300.
Apple retailers gives spectacular rebates on both hardware and software for these kind of things. And the end result software package on the mac-side is, as you can see quite spectaculary much better.
And we all know it doesn't take much training to keep a mac going, there is no special needs here, mostly apple software. The experiences from the schools already using macs are that they spend almost no resources at all on maintanance. The difference according to them is stunning.
But as I said, If there are any external sources, statistics, or similar which can actually help us convince them of what we already know. It would be super-great!

edit:
And thank you so much for the links.

 

[miles01110]

Apple retailers gives spectacular rebates on both hardware and software for these kind of things.

"Spectacular" compared to what? The best Apple discount I've seen even for purchases of large quantities (1000+ units) is 20%. A comparable purchase from Dell runs around a 30-40% discount on a unit that's cheaper to begin with. Do you actually know this from experience, or are you just assuming? I've not seen any evidence to support your claim.

And the end result software package on the mac-side is, as you can see quite spectaculary much better.

Better for... the people that want to use a Mac? Maybe. But ultimately it's the people who run and support the network that will decide.

 

[Soundnerd]

miles,

this is based on real numbers, from the current offer and from previously bought equipment. I don't think I can be more spesific than that, as there are rules to this.... But the mac-retailers really want to enter the educational market over here, and they do go out on a limb to do so.

And no, the IT-guys don't get to decide, but they have a pretty strong advisory role. (I'm also only an advisor in this btw.)

Again, this is not a question about what works best, we already know that.

I'm just looking for pointers.

 

[miles01110]

Again, this is not a question about what works best, we already know that.

I'm just looking for pointers.

I think this is the root of your problem. You're going into this argument already having made up your mind, without taking into consideration the technical aspects of the debate which you may or may not know about (i.e. the exact issues the IT staff will raise).

It most definitely is a question about what works best.

 

[Soundnerd]

I think this is the root of your problem. You're going into this argument already having made up your mind, without taking into consideration the technical aspects of the debate which you may or may not know about (i.e. the exact issues the IT staff will raise).

It most definitely is a question about what works best.

I thank you for playing the devils advocate here, miles!

No the the main technical aspects is these:
Which software works the best for those that are going to use it. What computer does what it should for those that use it.

They have been running all this trouble free locally at 3 of these schools.
Now, since there are supposed to be equal opportunities for all students regardless of school(these are public schools, and this has to do with standardized exams and such) There need to be a common platform.

Common platform means, centralized IT is involved no matter if the actual job of administering these computers are done locally. (And i might add: what job?) And locally, they love them already.

Pro-windows is just their standard answer. Networking-wise there are no special needs here besides having wireless. There are no Exchange-mail compability or large-company security-issues, well in fact it is, but it is already working. The fact is they don't need a centralized roll-out. It has taken those 3 schools a grand total of 4 1 person working days to keep the already 100's of machines running for a year.
This adds up to a remarkable man-hour saving over a per-computer life-time.

What is needed here is external sources that has the same stories to tell.

 

[chrono1081]

Of course the IT department wants PC's, it keeps them employed!

I work in IT and can completely vouch for that. Almost everything I fix is a windows only problem.

 

[monokakata]

When you figure in the software, and the cost of pro-tools for the pc's(which require an external sound-card to even run.) The difference is about $300.

What do you mean about the cost of pro tools? I had to buy Pro Tools and Digi hardware for my (several) Macs. It's not included with any Mac I've ever heard about.

 

[Badger^2]

I agree with miles 100%.

You are barking up a tree.

It aint gonna happen.

 

[Soundnerd]

chrono, thank you for being the first one stating the facts out loud!
What you are saying is THE starting point.

Badger and miles: thank you for being the obvious devils advocates. But, you failed to bring anything new to the table.

monokakata: stop smoking whatever you are smoking and learn to read. It WILL make your life better.

I did have higher hopes for these forums, though....

thanks anyway.

 

[miles01110]

Badger and miles: thank you for being the obvious devils advocates. But, you failed to bring anything new to the table.

Other than a wakeup call, it seems.

 

[Soundnerd]

Of course! Thank you so much Miles, for stimulating my thoughts at least!
I really appreciate your input!

 

[monokakata]

monokakata: stop smoking whatever you are smoking and learn to read. It WILL make your life better.

Very cute. Very freshman-like. I learned to read while completing a PhD, and during my training, one of my professors threw down an aphorism (you do know what that is, don't you?) that I'll rephrase to be appropriate here:

Soundnerd uses MacRumors as a drunk uses a lamp post: for support rather than illumination.

 

[Soundnerd]

Very cute. Very freshman-like. I learned to read while completing a PhD, and during my training, one of my professors threw down an aphorism (you do know what that is, don't you?) that I'll rephrase to be appropriate here:

Soundnerd uses MacRumors as a drunk uses a lamp post: for support rather than illumination.

mono,

I am not seeking "illumination" on this matter, I am seeking support.
Please see the initial question.
Though my particular expertise is in sound design, that includes making records, sound editing for films and tv. I have built and maintained studios and editing suites based on both the mac and pc platform. The macintoshes works better ime, and are much more robust regarding stability and maintanace when used by inexperienced users. That is one part of the reason i advice these schools to use macs. The other part is that the whole media biz, and that is in the widest meaning of the word, in this country are based on macs. If a student does not know what is up and down on a mac when he finishes school he will never see as much as an internship, much less an actual job.

And nobody disagree with this, except centralized IT, which tries to make this into a cost matter. And it is not about the per unit cost, it is about the "system" cost, where they really are inventing numbers.

Now about you alleged marihuana-smoking, I still do not understand what:

What do you mean about the cost of pro tools? I had to buy Pro Tools and Digi hardware for my (several) Macs. It's not included with any Mac I've ever heard about.

Meant.

It is the Windows PC's which will require Pro Tools with it's iLok and external sound card, which raises the unit cost quite a lot...
(It is now called avid, not digidesign btw.)

The macs are Logic/final cut based, which means homework or location work can be done without a soundcard. Altough they can still do interviews and voiceovers with their usb-mikes while they monitor the sound on their large professional head sets etc. When needed the macs can be plugged via USB and the display cable to the setup in the schools editing suites where every acoustically treated room has got 16/32 ins and 8/16 outs, lines from all other rooms, both video and audio, large very high quality speakers, large displays etc. And that is done by one click on the mouse in either final cut or logic.
Or you can use your mac as an external disk in the rooms own imacs/mac pros.

This is just some of the workflow integration that are much harder to achieve with windows pc's running pro tools ime. (just the process of setting up your ins and outs in pro tools for a different soundcard everytime you are there for a 45min lesson) Since absolutely everything is directly compatible with everything, that saves both time and a lot of money, which is something I have learnt to appreciate running a small media business, where I am not sure If I will be continuing using Pro Tools HD much longer...

 

[mrwonkers]

WTF

 

[Soundnerd]

Thank you for your excellent contribution mr. Wonkers

 

[iDisk]

Other than a wakeup call, it seems.

Miles is that you in the photo avatar?

Good seeing you around the forums again.