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I agree its as simple as that - it may be legal or illegal when gone through in court - but the point is - its unfair.

So either Apple wins - that's bad.

Or Apple loses - that's good.

Its simple - lets see if the law supports Psystar or Apple - if Apple does win - the law will need to be changed IMO.

In the UK there are many times cases where companies have unfair restrictions/stipulations - the test is always what is fair and reasonable.

If Apple were to be the only OS maker then sure, I'd agree with you, but it's not there are several viable alternatives.

Going back to the shoe analogy I posted earlier in the thread, Do you think that you should be able to force Nike to make shoes of a certain style that you like? or at a price you like? or in the color you like? No, if Nike doesn't make shoes you like then you buy a different shoe, but there is no 'right' to have the Nike brand on that shoe, just as there's no 'right' to use OSX.
 
Going back to the shoe analogy I posted earlier in the thread, Do you think that you should be able to force Nike to make shoes of a certain style that you like? or at a price you like? or in the color you like? No, if Nike doesn't make shoes you like then you buy a different shoe, but there is no 'right' to have the Nike brand on that shoe, just as there's no 'right' to use OSX.

A better analogy would be Nike saying you can only wear their shoes with Nike socks. Nobody surely would accept that.
 
I'd compare it to leasing a car or renting an apartment, all of them involve a contract which allows and disallows certain things.

But you're talking about the physical aspect of the nike shoes, I'm talking about the IP involved, Nikes brand and logo. Beyond the EULA case, which I think is a slam dunk, because installing OSX required Psystar at some point to agree with the contract there is a ton of case law to back this up in my earlier post, part of Apples case is about Trademark and brand reputation.

Consider this, if i buy a pair of nikes, I can cut off the logo and affix it to any shoes I want, the law allows this for personal use, but if I buy nikes in bulk, cut off the logo and stick it on hundreds of cheap crappy shoes then sell those, the law would be against me. Even if i never mentioned nike anywhere on the product, box or advertisement, having the logo on the shoe implies a connection and harms nikes brand by associating it with an inferior product.

I dislike the expansion of IP related laws, particularly the outrageous copyright extensions, but this really seems like a simple case of a creator being allowed to control how it's creation is sold.
 
obviously I want apple to win, but Psystar showed us what possible is, if things are open source :cool:
 
EULAs are not legally binding
Saying it over and over doesn't make it true. You've got it completely backwards--EULAs are valid and legally binding everywhere. The reason you know this is that every case overturning provisions in them looks specifically into the EULA and its effects; no court has ever said, "look, a EULA, case dismissed".
Copyright laws, however, would not stop a vendor who has discovered how to install an unmodified OS X on 3rd party hardware, nor should they!
Of course it would. Apple has the sole authority to control reproduction and distribution of its products. Psystar is not packaging retail DVDs. It is distributing OS X, which is unlawful without authorization--and distributing a cracked version, at that.
Because then copyright laws would then be facilitating Apple's anti-competitive means to bind customers of one product to another... which is illegal, by the way.
No, it's not. Tying is the forced purchasing of a third-party's products at the time of sale of your own, or the requisite purchase of other products as a "bundle."

It is not, however, the sale of a product based on a prior purchase. It is not unlawful to condition the purchase of spare parts, optional components, and certain accessories on having a particular product already. In fact, this is quite common.
This is why people are legally allowed to unlock their iPhones.
No, people are allowed to unlock their phones because carrier locks apply beyond the scope of the contract agreement. If the user pays the entire stipulated value of the contract, successful termination means that the carrier no longer has a right to impose restrictions on the device. It is not an antitrust consideration.
The sake of preserving Apple's "good name" does not allow them to be anti-competitive.
Using your oversimplified binary, that's the only way. Denying expansion of use is the only way to maintain that protection. Doing so, however, is not anticompetitive, despite your proclamations.
And if they're worried about R&D costs or whatever, they should charge more for the product.
And who exactly would choose a $500 copy over a $129 copy? The people who have no compunction about stealing it for themselves now would not suddenly change their tune.
There would be nothing then to stop Microsoft locking their sw down to their own hw.
There's nothing stopping them now. In fact, if they did so, courts would rejoice--they'd lose their monopoly overnight.
Psystar are not stealing
Of course they are. They are stealing Apple's exclusive right to market, sell, and set the terms of sale of Apple's wholly-owned product.
Apple benefits fairly for each and every Psystar sale - Apple are unfairly trying to prevent this.
No they don't. The price of OS X contemplates the existence of prior licensing fees (when you bought your Mac). It's not just a kind heart that makes OS X less than half the price of Windows on the shelf.

Psystar is taking a copy of OS X licensed to upgrade specific hardware and then using it on unlicensed hardware.
 
Apple. I don't mind Psystar selling computers, but I don't like them selling OS X with them.

I like the exclusiveness of using Apple products... and part of that includes using OS X.

I think that in order for you to be able to use OS X, you should have to do it on an Apple computer.

So go ahead, Psystar, sell computers... but stop bundling OS X with them. And if a user wants to pirate a x86 version, let them (but if they get sued, that's the price you pay for doing illegal crap).
 
So many MR readers here really don't like the Apple, Inc made Macintosh? Looking back at the clone war in the late 90's. It's not helping the Mac market at all.
 
I am pretty sure that Apple is suing them because they are distributing a modified version of Mac OS X, not because they are selling Mac Clones. As much as Apple would like to sue them for the sale of Mac Clones, they would never win that lawsuit.
 
Even if Paystar "wins"...

There is nothing to stop apple from simply implementing something in the software to make sure it is being installed on a genuine Mac or to raise the price of OSx in the 'full' retail version like Microsoft does and allow people who have registered their real Macs to buy an 'upgrade' on the web for the current $129 price.

There is still the question of support - Apple can still simply say "we do not support non-Apple hardware." Who wants to buy a computer that has no support?

Apple is not against the osx86 people - they are not reselling their cobbled together systems.
 
Even if Pystar installed OS X on unauthorized hardware, did they pay Apple for licenses for OS X or did they steal it? If they paid Apple for the licenses for OS X I think they should be allowed to install it on whatever they want. I do not think they should be able to sell an Apple product (OS X) without compensating Apple. Apple should sell a version of OS X that can be installed on any computer for a price comparable to windows $320 and a version for Apple hardware that costs significantly less.

BTW I own Apple stock.

this would be amazing if it every happened, but i highly doubt it. it would be nice though if i could get this and install it on one of those new sony vaio z or fw would be awesome, but i doubt it will happen. if it did apple computer sales would fall, but i feel that the sales from their OS X would either have them break even, or more likely they would be making a lot more money, but who knows and i doubt we will ever find out.
 
I want psystar to win.


Partly because I'd like to see some Sony, Toshiba and IBM (lenovo thinkpad) branded mac running pcs. People who like Mac as it is can stick to mac and buy their hardware if they want to, but i'd just like to see some other manufacturers to run the same, great OS.
Perhaps Apple can give hardware guidelines as to what type/brand of hardware can be used in a licensed Mac PC so there'd be no driver compatibility issues experienced on a Windows PC.
But definately, I'd like to see some other designs than just those tacky white/black/aluminum tin can design that macs adopt.
 
I think this is a very sensitive topic for apple.

Here are some reasons why...
As apple's marketshare reaches higher and higher, apple will face a problem that most companies in their heyday have faced: Anti-Trust laws that prohibit a company from monopolizing the market.
Microsoft has been constantly fighting over this battle and they've lost billions through legal affairs globally.
Standard Oil once faced this issue and is now split into multiple companies
At&t is also the legacy of the anti-trust law.
Apple is going to face the battle sooner or later. the issue is time.
I bet the high execs at apple have thought over this issue as to whether they should start offering the os to non-apple branded pcs.
i think apple should make a compromise and start licensing PCs that have been built according to their guidelines. (such as using specific type of hardware that is used in mb,mba,mbp.)
 
i couldnt agree more. I have a crappy laptop now that i got 4 years ago, and want am going to get a new one soon and really want one of those new sony vaios that are coming out next month, but also want a mac for their operating system, and if apple would allow sony to use their OS X then i would not have an issue of what computer to get, but oh well guess i just have a big choice ahead of me.
 
As a mac user for over 6 years, I believe the sole reason apple as a company has been able to avoid mediocre product functionality is the EULA.

Think about it, If OSX would have debuted on a dell pentium2 box years ago, and ended up sluggish and unresponsive because of the lack of hardware R&D, critics would have torn them to pieces (and by critics I also mean you guys). Then compounded by sub-par tech and hardware support from third parties, the company would surely have vanished from existence.

The EULA was and is necessary to continue innovating.
 
Of course they are. They are stealing Apple's exclusive right to market, sell, and set the terms of sale of Apple's wholly-owned product.

OSX is too big and important to be tied to one person now - common sense.

Imagine the headline - and dubbya's response - ww3

"All gulf states will only sell their oil to fellow Arabs"

Its the sort of World no-one would want to live in.

With power comes responsibility - anti-trust laws etc

In any legal system there is a test of fairness
 
OSX is too big and important to be tied to one person now - common sense.

Imagine the headline - and dubbya's response - ww3

"All gulf states will only sell their oil to fellow Arabs"

Its the sort of World no-one would want to live in.

With power comes responsibility - anti-trust laws etc

In any legal system there is a test of fairness

You're saying that OSX is as important a commodity as oil?

Let's see how well that holds up. If every ounce of oil and every copy of OSX were to disappear from the planet tomorrow.

OIL:
  • 1/4 of the worlds population would starve to death in the next year.
  • another 10-15% would die over the next winter because we couldn't supply them with heat or electricity.
  • The global economy would grind to a halt as there would be no shipping or transportation.
  • Western civilization would revert to a 19th century agrarian society.

OSX:
  • 8% of the US computer users and 3% of the global computer users would be mildly inconvenienced by having to DL and install a copy of windows or linux, after that they would go on as if nothing happened.

8 and 3% hardly constitute a monopoly, Apples biggest growth this decade was last year, from 6-8%. Even if they could sustain that growth for 30 years they'd only have 68% of the market and that's ignoring linux and windows reaction. 30 Years is the entire history of the personal computer, no one has any idea what computers will be like by then, let alone whether microsoft or apple will still be around.

Until OSX hits a windows like 90% it's absolutely silly to talk about monopolies.

There is a difference between want and need, no one needs OSX.
 
OSX is too big and important to be tied to one person now - common sense.
You must be joking. There's no semblance of common sense in that statement at all. It's a consumer product. One of limited popularity, at that.

You can get substantially similar hardware and software from literally hundreds of other companies. If Microsoft had 95% market share and licensed it only to Microsoft hardware, they'd never have been found an illegal monopoly. Linux would also be substantially more popular in that alternate reality. Of course, if MS made their own systems and restricted licensing to it, they'd never have 95% market share, so the problem would solve itself.
With power comes responsibility - anti-trust laws etc
You have to have a trust to invoke antitrust laws.
In any legal system there is a test of fairness
Yes. Definitely joking. Even granting the value (but certainly not a test), how do you tip the balance? Why do you deserve a greater right to dictate terms than the people who made it? It's not an essential product. Even if it were, it's not the only option. You're not forced to buy an Apple product.
 
1) Competition is almost always good for the consumer

2) If someone buys a copy of your software, common sense says they should be able to use that individual copy of the software however they like, including installing it on a machine they built themselves. If copyright law prohibits this, then copyright law is broken and unjust and it is copyright law that should change, not psystar's business practices.

Laws are dynamic entities. Anyone who argues that people should accept a law as it is simply because it's in the books, is misunderstanding how the law works. Laws are passed by the legislature, then a case is brought against a party for breaking that law, then that case is brought to the judiciary who decides if the law itself is legally permissible, and if the law itself is deemed to be legal then they interpret how it can be legally applicable to indicted parties in different situations.

If I buy an engine from Ford, as soon as they get my money, their ownership over what I bought ends. If I choose to stick that Ford engine into a Chevy and then sell that hotrodded car, Ford has absolutely no legal right to stop me. If I buy a copy of an OS from Apple, I should be able to install it on to whichever single computer I like.
 
2) If someone buys a copy of your software, common sense says they should be able to use that individual copy of the software however they like, including installing it on a machine they built themselves.
Sure, if they're purchasing that right. Common sense says you get what you pay for. $129 doesn't make you king of software land.

If you buy a copy, you get its constituent parts: the license, the box, the disc, and the paperwork.
If copyright law prohibits this
It doesn't. If someone wants to let you do that, they can.
Laws are dynamic entities. Anyone who argues that people should accept a law as it is simply because it's in the books, is misunderstanding how the law works. Laws are passed by the legislature
That's well and good, but completely off topic.

Licenses that are not compulsory are just that: not compulsory. If I've got something you want, I get to name my price and terms. You get to decide if my terms are reasonable and agree or walk away. Contracts are not written by legislatures, and accepting a contract you've agreed to is a fundamental premise of law. Anyone who says otherwise is misunderstanding how the law works.
If I buy an engine from Ford, as soon as they get my money, their ownership over what I bought ends.
No it doesn't. Your money doesn't buy complete ownership over anything but the metal and plastic. Your money buys exactly as much as they sell you, nothing more. To use your analogy, if you want to scribble on the label or turn the box into a hat, knock yourself out.
 
Competition is good for consumers!

This is extremely simple: competition is good for consumers--period!

We love Apple, but we should be rooting for Psystar to win.

The competition will keep Apple on their toes and keep them honest about prices.
 
This is not about competition.

Competition would be if the knockoff artist actually make their own OS and put together their own hardware without using 3rd party information that they did not paid for.

Guess what? What they are doing is to take the information on hackint0sh that other people have spend many hours working on, and use it to make money for themselves. (i.e. shyster took the software that is only available for non commercial usage, and sells it as part of the package). They are ripping everybody off.

This is about copyright infringement. If you make a product, you can choose to sell it however you want. Plain and simple. If you actually done any creative work, you would understand.
 
This is not about competition.

Competition would be if the knockoff artist actually make their own OS and put together their own hardware without using 3rd party information that they did not paid for.

Guess what? What they are doing is to take the information on hackint0sh that other people have spend many hours working on, and use it to make money for themselves. (i.e. shyster took the software that is only available for non commercial usage, and sells it as part of the package). They are ripping everybody off.

This is about copyright infringement. If you make a product, you can choose to sell it however you want. Plain and simple. If you actually done any creative work, you would understand.

Exactly. That would be like me reselling songs from iTunes and claiming Apple was anti-competition if they tried to stop me.
 
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