Poll: GTI vs Impreza 2.5RS

[IDANNY]

I've had my fill of American cars for the time being. I know it sounds a bit snobby, but they just aren't good enough. If I was buying a truck I'd probably be shopping American, but for a sporty compact car the options from the Big Three are pretty grim. I haven't seen anything decent since the SVT Contour and Focus checked out.

the dodge neon turbo , srt4 might be a good option they didn't hold there value well I believe might be an option

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I liked the original Neon twincams and the Neon ACR - they were lightweight and nimble, with good power. Unfortunately the build quality was not great. The later SRT4 has loud yet unsophisticated styling; I don't think I could bear to look at it for years.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Denouement

Well, I ended up getting a Subaru...but not a 2.5RS....

After shopping for over a month and wrangling with the insurance company I wasn't able to find a decent Golf 1.8T I could afford. The cheapest clean examples I could find were $8000+.

The 2.5RS was just not findable. I found one clean example within 100 miles but it had an automatic...the closest manual transmission car I could find was a high mileage example about 400 miles away.

...So I ended up getting a "plan B" car, a 2000 Subaru Forester S. She was about $2000 cheaper than similar Impreza 2.5RSs, but with the same drivetrain.

Overall I'm happy with it...she sits hub-deep in snow in our unplowed parking lot on a hill. A truly amazing car in the snow, I shod the car in a set of Nokian WRG2s and so far have had no problems. It's got a limited slip in the back, which helps snow performance a great deal.

The car has better handling than I expected, with sharp steering response and good weighting. There is plenty of body lean due to the large amount of suspension travel, so this is no sports wagon. But ride comfort is quite good. It's got 4-wheel discs and the brakes feel more than adequate.

The real enemy of the Forester is weight...at nearly 3200 pounds this is a heavy 4-cylinder car. Fortunately the 2.5L boxer engine is very torquey. Subaru tried to conceal the car's weight by shortening up the ratios in the gearbox. As a result, the car accelerates better than expected, but you pay for it on the highway. This car needs a (tall) 6th gear badly. At around 70mph in top gear the engine is turning about 3000rpm. My old Nissan Altima with a similar-sized (2.4L) engine would do about 80mph at 3000rpm in top gear...

After changing the timing belt/oil/fuel pump/ and getting the new tires (and using winter gas) I averaged 28.5mpg on a recent 770-mile trip, with an average speed of around 65mph. So fuel economy is not great, but better than SUVs. On summer gas I could probably crack 30mpg on the highway.

Overall it's a decent car, with tons of space in the back, excellent performance in the snow, and decent handling. I'm finishing up my degree program this spring, and depending on employment prospects I will be looking forward to ordering a brand new GTI. I'm thinking blue...

 

[3nm]

congrats on your purchase.

i think you made a great choice. while the 1.8T is quite tunable, it's never meant to be driven to the ground. it's very common for the timing belt to snap prior to 70k mi, and it'd cost $6k+ to get the engine fixed.

so yes, you've made an awesome choice. enjoy your car.

 

[Rhosfelt]

Shell V Power

Its what I use
In my Nissan Sentra..


Nice purchase, but I would have held off until I found a VW, just personal preference, I guess.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

congrats on your purchase.

i think you made a great choice. while the 1.8T is quite tunable, it's never meant to be driven to the ground. it's very common for the timing belt to snap prior to 70k mi, and it'd cost $6k+ to get the engine fixed.

I found a good number of 1.8Ts, but almost all of them had been driven to death by a pampered teenager and needed serious TLC...also many had been fitted with aftermarket crap, usually bad tint jobs, fake carbon fiber shift knobs, outrageous wheel packages and silly exhausts. And most people were asking bluebook value for these pieces of junk...

so yes, you've made an awesome choice. enjoy your car.

Thanks!

Nice purchase, but I would have held off until I found a VW, just personal preference, I guess.

I really wanted the Golf (or alternately the 2.5RS)...but after looking for 40+days I didn't find a clean example within 100 miles and with a price under 8 grand. At which point I needed to drive 770 miles to finish my Master's degree. So I was in a bit of a bind. There were a few tempting alternatives, like a V6 GTI, but the mileage was too high and fuel economy was poor. And with all the snow and hills we have up here the Golf would be parked most days anyway. The scoobie is a mountain goat.

 

[Counterfit]

The best parts about Subies is that they're like Legos. There are STIs with the flat-6 from the Outback and Tribeca, plus a few turbos. Any transmission from the 90's will bolt right up to any EJ-series engine (or the EZ30 and 36 from the Tribeca) with little to no modification (sometimes a change of clutch is necessary).

So if you want that 6th gear, just find a smashed donor STi.


Heck, you could make a Forester STi if you really wanted. Granted, it would look quite as good as if you used a newer Forester XT (sexy!).

 

[iGav]

There is plenty of body lean due to the large amount of suspension travel.

Well that's an easy fix.

I averaged 28.5mpg on a recent 770-mile trip, with an average speed of around 65mph. So fuel economy is not great,

Oh my... that's quite a thirst she has there.

In my quest to try and hit 80mpg I fitted my car with low-resistance, run flats... which meant I could do away with the added weight of the spare and the necessary assorted bits and bobs, all in all I've seen a nice corresponding increase in mpg... (though not quite 80mpg yet). If you hadn't just bought new rubber, I'd have recommended that option.

I will be looking forward to ordering a brand new GTI. I'm thinking blue...

Nah... everyone knows the classic colours for a GTI are Red, Black or White.

 

[yg17]

I will be looking forward to ordering a brand new GTI. I'm thinking blue...

Hate to bring bad news, but the GTIs aren't available in blue. Red, white, black and gray are the only colors available in the states.

And you can scratch white off the list of possible colors because I'm the unofficial MacRumors white GTI owner

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Oh my... that's quite a thirst she has there.

Yes, I was a little disappointed in the mileage. But the Forester is a heavy car with brick-like aerodynamics. I removed the crossbars on the roofrack. Between that and the new tires I don't know what I can do to improve mileage much short of installing a taller top gear. (I also installed new spark plugs, wires & air filter). After I bought the car, and before I did all the work listed above, I burned one tank of fuel and averaged 21.5mpg ...so where I'm at now is an improvement.

In my quest to try and hit 80mpg I fitted my car with low-resistance, run flats

That's an interesting idea. What are you driving again? The Forester has a fullsize spare and toolkit, so I am lugging around a not inconsiderable amount of weight.

Nah... everyone knows the classic colours for a GTI are Red, Black or White.

White then. Or maybe black...

Any transmission from the 90's will bolt right up to any EJ-series engine (or the EZ30 and 36 from the Tribeca) with little to no modification (sometimes a change of clutch is necessary).

Yeah, I've been cruising some Subaru forums and have noticed that the Imprezas and Legacies all use the same engines & drive train (wasn't sure about the Tribeca). I haven't looked up the ratios yet though, so I'm not sure if an STI gearbox would give me a taller top gear, especially since I'll bet they have a shorter final drive than my Forester. But I could always install the STI gearbox with a different 6th gear ratio. I hear that automatic-equipped Foresters have taller gears and get better mileage, but I couldn't bring myself to get an auto.

There's a guy in town with a 2.5RS that has a brand-new STI engine in it. It's FAST.

 

[iGav]

(I also installed new spark plugs, wires & air filter).

That's exactly what I did on mine, always the best place to start on any used car.

Prior to having a new exhaust fitted, I ran a Redex treatment on it as well, which wasn't especially good for the environment judging by the hoofing great dark cloud that came out of the back, and it finished off the old cat just dandy too... but the engine runs noticeably smoother (particularly from cold), and I like to add a bottle of the stuff every other time I fill up (once every month and half). Might be worth looking at doing something like that, or at least... it certainly can't harm.

I tend to run my tyres 3-4psi over the recommended pressures as well, for various reasons.

After I bought the car, and before I did all the work listed above, I burned one tank of fuel and averaged 21.5mpg ...so where I'm at now is an improvement.

That's pretty impressive, I'd be chuffed with that increase.

That's an interesting idea. What are you driving again?

The thing with run flats are that you need a tyre pressure monitoring system, otherwise you'll literally never know you've got a flat until the tyre wears out and you start grinding. You can pick up cheap remote systems though, mine has a buzzer that goes off when the tyre loses pressure (apparently, as it's not occurred yet).

The only other thing is that many people bitch about how they affect ride quality (because of the excessively stiff sidewalls) but it's less of an issue in cars that don't run sports suspension.

I'm driving a humble Audi A2 1.4 TDi. It'd previously been in an accident (nothing major, but it was still documented by the insurance) so it was the absolute bargain of the century, and I needed something a little more frugal.

Other than the basic maintenance, I've only done subtle reworking to the engine, the bhp has been bumped up from 90bhp to a smidgen under 120bhp, with a corresponding rise in torque too, it was originally somewhere around 170 lbs ft, but it's likely over 200 lbs ft now, not especially impressive until one realises the car only weighs 950kg according to my local garage.

The Forester has a fullsize spare and toolkit, so I am lugging around a not inconsiderable amount of weight.

Indeed, though mine only had a spacesaver, so the weight saving wasn't as great, but it all counts.

White then. Or maybe black...

Black. Because the red pinstripe really stands out then.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

That's exactly what I did on mine, always the best place to start on any used car.

I learned that by hard experience. My first vehicle (a Toyota Hilux) had a filthy K&N air filter in it that the previous owner insisted was re-usable and gave an extra 5hp. I took it off and replaced it with brand new disposable unit. That gave me about 10hp. The rear spark plugs are a big pain in the butt to get to on most Subarus, so I had them installed while I was getting the timing belt/fuel filter changed. One thing that I have yet to do is change the fuel filter, but I'll do that as soon as the snow melts.

Prior to having a new exhaust fitted, I ran a Redex ...

Interesting idea...I use Mobil 1 oil and that seems to make a difference in smoothness after running it for 10k miles or so and changing it every 3-5k. Never tried fuel treatments before though.

The thing with run flats are that you need a tyre pressure monitoring system, otherwise you'll literally never know you've got a flat until the tyre wears out and you start grinding. You can pick up cheap remote systems though, mine has a buzzer that goes off when the tyre loses pressure (apparently, as it's not occurred yet).

The only other thing is that many people bitch about how they affect ride quality (because of the excessively stiff sidewalls) but it's less of an issue in cars that don't run sports suspension.

Since the Forester has a lot of suspension travel I'll bet stiff sidewalls wouldn't hurt ride comfort much...

I'm driving a humble Audi A2 1.4 TDi. It'd previously been in an accident (nothing major, but it was still documented by the insurance) so it was the absolute bargain of the century, and I needed something a little more frugal.

I wish I had the option of getting a nice diesel. My only real option was a Golf or Jetta TDI with the 3rd-world market 1.9L that runs on our high-sulphur diesel. Generally their resale value is 50-100% more than a similar 1.8T...if you can even find one. The only example I could find was a 2002 red Jetta TDI that had been totalled in a wreck and rebuilt with a salvage title...no thanks. Anyway it has less power than your A2 and weighs a lot more.

Black. Because the red pinstripe really stands out then.

I am leaning towards black, I must say. Though I'll have to see what the new diesels look like when they finally show up.

 

[Naimfan]

As others here, and in other threads, have noted, be very wary of a VW. Terrific fun to drive, but their reliability is (ahem) suspect to say the least.

OK, that said:

Congrats on your new car!

 

[Rhosfelt]

I really wanted the Golf (or alternately the 2.5RS)...but after looking for 40+days I didn't find a clean example within 100 miles and with a price under 8 grand. At which point I needed to drive 770 miles to finish my Master's degree. So I was in a bit of a bind. There were a few tempting alternatives, like a V6 GTI, but the mileage was too high and fuel economy was poor. And with all the snow and hills we have up here the Golf would be parked most days anyway. The scoobie is a mountain goat.

Oh yeah I completely understand the situation you were in and it does suck living in wintery states, and going to school I know haha. In fact I tell people now that the only other Japanese car I would get if I needed to would be the Impreza WRX sti (rally edition: drool). Life isn't fair really but you got a nice car, and I am glad you find something you like.

 

[Counterfit]

I wish I had the option of getting a nice diesel. My only real option was a Golf or Jetta TDI with the 3rd-world market 1.9L that runs on our high-sulphur diesel. Generally their resale value is 50-100% more than a similar 1.8T...if you can even find one. The only example I could find was a 2002 red Jetta TDI that had been totalled in a wreck and rebuilt with a salvage title...no thanks. Anyway it has less power than your A2 and weighs a lot more.

I would totally swap my 2.5i to the EDM diesel if I could afford it.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

I would totally swap my 2.5i to the EDM diesel if I could afford it.

Next year the VW diesel will be back, in the form of a 2.0L unit with 140hp and 235ft-lbs (IIRC). And it won't need the urea treatment. I'd be torn between that and the GTI...though I really want a GTI.

Too bad there are so few diesels available to us Yanks, but maybe the new ultra-low sulfur diesel we use now will bring more diesels from Europe and Japan.

A friend of mine is considering swapping out the 5.0L V8 from his ford F-150 and replacing it with the 2.7L I5 turbo diesel from the Dodge/Frieghtliner/Mercedes Sprinter van...the reason? he's putting a turbo in his Integra GSR and the F-150 (his second car) isn't reliable enough to function as a commuter car while he installs all the parts. He's nuts.

I suppose I could try to get my hands on Subaru's new horizontally opposed diesel 4 cylinder and stick it in my Forester...

 

[Greasyman]

Lord Blackadder - Congrats on the new car, Foresters are very cool. You might be overly concerned about the revs it's turning on the highway, I bet if you geared it to turn lower revs but still accelerate fairly well you wouldn't see your mileage improve by more than a mile or two per gallon. Probably not enough savings in fuel costs to pay for the expense of the gear swap unless you own the car for years and years. Three thousand rpm at 70 mph isn't bad at all, I used to have a Ford ZX2 that turned that at 60 or so, and it still got high twenties for mileage.

Foresters can go good, I've seen a couple of XTs at autocrosses and they did quite well, held their own with the WRXs and STis. They might not handle quite as well because of their extra weight and higher center of gravity but they certainly don't handle badly. There also seem to be quite a few mods available for them.

Those RSes seem to be very rare, as do all non-WRX, STi, or Outback Sport Imprezas. I think I've seen only about three or four that were either a RS or plain Jane version in the past year.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Those RSes seem to be very rare, as do all non-WRX, STi, or Outback Sport Imprezas. I think I've seen only about three or four that were either a RS or plain Jane version in the past year.

Up at University here (a small town in Upper Peninsula Michigan), there are five 2.5RSs, including two of the rarer 4-doors. Most people own a Subaru or a 4WD truck up here because of the snow though. Generally the 2.5RS is hard to find.

 

[iGav]

Those RSes seem to be very rare, as do all non-WRX, STi, or Outback Sport Imprezas.

Non Turbo Impreza's are a really rare sight on our roads... (AFAIK we don't get get the NA 2.5) mainly because of their agricultural performance (underpowered & overweight) and mediocre dynamics in comparison to the competition.

Subaru don't exactly shift much in the way of the other models here either.

They just don't have the brand recognition outside of the Turbo models... and their association with boy-racing hooligans has probably had a somewhat detrimental effect on the brand as a whole over here if anything.

And coming up with nondescript models like the new Impreza just isn't going to change brand perception at all.

 

[Lord Blackadder]

Non Turbo Impreza's are a really rare sight on our roads... (AFAIK we don't get get the NA 2.5) mainly because of their agricultural performance (underpowered & overweight) and mediocre dynamics in comparison to the competition.

I think you guys get an NA 2.0L, though the turbo engines are all 2.5L...

Subaru specializes in AWD and wagons are popular, so they will always have power to weight ratios that are inferior to comparable sporty vehicles. And people who want to buy a corner-carving car will be put off by the higher ride height and longer-stroke suspensions.

Right now it works great for me though, driving on horrible roads in hub-deep snow. We got 4-5 inches today so far, and I'm loving this car...this is what is was really made for. But if I lived in a warmer climate I would buy something else.

They just don't have the brand recognition outside of the Turbo models... and their association with boy-racing hooligans has probably had a somewhat detrimental effect on the brand as a whole over here if anything.

And coming up with nondescript models like the new Impreza just isn't going to change brand perception at all.

In the US the Impreza & Forester Outback wagons have a yuppie, granola-eating, outdoorsy thirtysomething image. The Legacy Outback is for slightly more affluent or older versions of the above. The only sporty Subarus we had before the WRX were the SVX, which nobody remembers, the Legacy GT, which was attractive but quite slow, and the 2.5RS, which was only made for 3 years and is considerably slower than the WRX.

So Subaru had a pretty staid image overall before the WRX. Only the rare rally fanatic had the wherewithal to import the 2.0L turbo from the older WRX and install it in their US-spec Impreza.

 

[iGav]

I think you guys get an NA 2.0L,

Can you believe we actually got the 1.6 and 1.8 too until the new model was released... which saw the introduction of a mighty 1.5. (14 seconds to 60) engine.

though the turbo engines are all 2.5L...

The 2.5 is as far as I'm aware, a relatively recent (year or so) addition to the Subaru range here, prior to this all turbos were 2 litres (some were 2.2 I think), even the RB versions... mainly for homolgation purposes.

I think the .5 was only introduced here in the semi-successful quest to obtain some low-down torque (something that affects the Evo too).

In the US the Impreza & Forester Outback wagons have a yuppie, granola-eating, outdoorsy thirtysomething image. The Legacy Outback is for slightly more affluent or older versions of the above.

Foresters here are the soul domain of farmers... and eccentric ones at that. (no offense meant of course fella )

I don't think Legacy's even have a target market... because they tread dangerously close to Allroad and XC70 territory.

I'm always intrigued how brand perception can differ between two usually such closely tied countries though (it's the same with Honda) from what you describe Subaru almost exudes a wholesome tree hugging image there.

Yet here, it's considered as being reliable yes... but slightly agricultural due to the design and build quality (well built, hosepipe washable type interiors ) but certainly not environmentally friendly because of the engine emissions.

I know like Honda, a previous lack of a diesel option has hurt sales in Europe, but there's still something missing in the brand that will elevate it to compete with Audi and Volvo models, both of which it should perhaps be targetting. Though the brand is perhaps still regarded as being more premium than either Honda and Toyota.