Poll: Where are you from?

[cdcastillo]

English was my second language (I'm up to 4 now), and as a non-native speaker, when I see mistakes I think I can identify if the writer is native or non-native to english. The structure of the sentences is different and the mistakes tend to follow the ingrained paths learned on the first language you were exposed to.

 

[decafjava]

Canadian born (well Montreal until the age of 2, which is unfortunate as I would have grown up bilingual) raised in Vancouver. I sometimes type too quickly especially on my phone but have had to slow down my typing on desktop by necessity. Decent French, passive Greek and some notions of Russian. Currently in Geneva, Switzerland - actually not the best place to learn French due to the large number of international institutions here and the large numbers of English (first or second language) speakers and most of the locals are fluent as well.

 

[Plett]

Really?

 

[Sciomar]

Where are you from? Poll:

Just trying to understand grammatical errors on this forum. If your first language isn’t English then don’t worry, you’re doing well!

Grammatical errors according to your language understanding? How very narrow minded. It's a forum for humans from everywhere to connect and share ideas, if you can't understand what is being typed maybe you need to work harder at your translation skills. If misspellings or grammatical errors bother you so much, perhaps look inward for fixing the problem. Living amongst mixed cultures has been such a great experience for removing the closed minded mentality I grew up around, I pity those who can't get outside their own comfort zone to see the benefit in open communication with people of varying backgrounds.

 

[Plett]

Grammatical errors according to your language understanding? How very narrow minded. It's a forum for humans from everywhere to connect and share ideas, if you can't understand what is being typed maybe you need to work harder at your translation skills. If misspellings or grammatical errors bother you so much, perhaps look inward for fixing the problem. Living amongst mixed cultures has been such a great experience for removing the closed minded mentality I grew up around, I pity those who can't get outside their own comfort zone to see the benefit in open communication with people of varying backgrounds.

Gold, I couldn't have said it better. Very elitist tripe at best.

 

[Ulenspiegel]

Canadian born (well Montreal until the age of 2, which is unfortunate as I would have grown up bilingual) raised in Vancouver. I sometimes type too quickly especially on my phone but have had to slow down my typing on desktop by necessity. Decent French, passive Greek and some notions of Russian. Currently in Geneva, Switzerland - actually not the best place to learn French due to the large number of international institutions here and the large numbers of English (first or second language) speakers and most of the locals are fluent as well.

I hear you, bro.
In Geneva you have everything but good French or English. (I had wonderful stories with Swiss French number system (septante, huitante, nonante) during my posting and with "renversé" in the UN Delegates Lounge).

Europe here. English is my third language.

 

[0388631]

English was my second language (I'm up to 4 now), and as a non-native speaker, when I see mistakes I think I can identify if the writer is native or non-native to english. The structure of the sentences is different and the mistakes tend to follow the ingrained paths learned on the first language you were exposed to.

With English, my own mistakes, which I'm aware of, are due in part to thinking in another language or going with a phrase that doesn't translate well into English. Usually it happens when I'm tired and it's evident in some of my late night posts. It's more embarrassing when you account that I've been speaking and writing English since I was a boy!

Though I've been known to sometimes space out and reply in a non-English language when asked a question. Again, usually when I'm tired.

 

[LizKat]

Therefore, I decided to - instead of guessing the words's meanings by context - search and store as much vocabulary as I could. After a few months, I could definitely perceive progress, amplifying my spectrum in order to be able to express myself more accurately and precisely. I am not there yet, but I have made progress

I've been trying to revive my once fair Spanish and French lately by doing that. And pick up Portuguese in case I decide to emigrate (which has lately seemed like a good idea I may have acquired too late to follow up on).

I'm American, born in the boondocks of NYS and returned there first as seasonal resident and then in retirement, but got moved around a lot all along the eastern seaboard as a child in formative years. I heard a lot of dialects and learned to pick them up in order to fit in and not be seen as new kid on the block for so long. Then ended up in suburb of Rochester NY for long enough to pick up their flat, infernal, diphthonged vowels. "Bee-ack" is how you say "back" up there. Truly cringe-worthy. It took me a few years later on in New England, California and NYC to ditch all that.

Spent 35 years working in corporate reaches of Manhattan, so speech-wise I may sound more or less like a CBS news anchor now, when I'm not sounding like a hayseed so as to try to blend in at least phonetically with my neighbors in the hills around here.

Funny you can be born someplace and go back there but once you've ever left, you'll still be "the other" even if you do go back and pick up most of the spoken language again. The old saw is right in some respects that there's no going home again, even if you never left the country of your birth. "They know."​

Writing-wise I credit or curse Apple's choices in spelling when I am silly enough to let Apple decide, otherwise the usually less embarrassing errors are on me. I always characterized my typing speed as "fast but inaccurate"... bad enough to prove I was meant for something way past being a good clerk. On grammar: I sometimes notice my errors after posting, and sometimes will go back and fix them. Other times I figure [shrug] readers are not going to get that far before they conclude "tl;dr" anyway.

 

[lowendlinux]

I spent most of my formative years in Florida so my number six vote is obvious

 

[FeliApple]

I've been trying to revive my once fair Spanish and French lately by doing that. And pick up Portuguese in case I decide to emigrate (which has lately seemed like a good idea I may have acquired too late to follow up on).

I'm American, born in the boondocks of NYS and returned there first as seasonal resident and then in retirement, but got moved around a lot all along the eastern seaboard as a child in formative years. I heard a lot of dialects and learned to pick them up in order to fit in and not be seen as new kid on the block for so long. Then ended up in suburb of Rochester NY for long enough to pick up their flat, infernal, diphthonged vowels. "Bee-ack" is how you say "back" up there. Truly cringe-worthy. It took me a few years later on in New England, California and NYC to ditch all that.

Spent 35 years working in corporate reaches of Manhattan, so speech-wise I may sound more or less like a CBS news anchor now, when I'm not sounding like a hayseed so as to try to blend in at least phonetically with my neighbors in the hills around here.

Funny you can be born someplace and go back there but once you've ever left, you'll still be "the other" even if you do go back and pick up most of the spoken language again. The old saw is right in some respects that there's no going home again, even if you never left the country of your birth. "They know."​

Writing-wise I credit or curse Apple's choices in spelling when I am silly enough to let Apple decide, otherwise the usually less embarrassing errors are on me. I always characterized my typing speed as "fast but inaccurate"... bad enough to prove I was meant for something way past being a good clerk. On grammar: I sometimes notice my errors after posting, and sometimes will go back and fix them. Other times I figure [shrug] readers are not going to get that far before they conclude "tl;dr" anyway.

Bee-ack, I think I wouldn't be able to speak like that even if I wanted to. Although my pronunciation is good but my accent isn't.
Once you leave and adapt to a different speech, it isn't as easy as one thinks it would be to go back, definitely. You think it'll be easy as 1, 2, 3; but it generally isn't.
I'll look up that accent to hear how does it sound like. Sounds... Interesting. At least to me.

 

[LizKat]

I spent most of my formative years in Florida so my number six vote is obvious

It's not the grammar of Florida that bugs me lol but let me not go down that road...

I spent time in Florida when I was between six months and two years old... mostly listening to my mama, of course; it was WWII era so the men were mostly gone to war. I had nearly been born in Venezuela, and I guess after that near miss, my mom figured it was better to hang out stateside for the duration, even if some military posts allowed for families during parts of the war. She settled for being in Florida once I was a few months old and fit for the travel back down from NYS, so that way my Dad could see us when he was on leave without our having to travel.

When my sister was about to be born, my mom apparently told Dad she didn't want her kids eventually going to schools in Florida and so we subsequently started a series of moves heading back north. It was like one state at a time since every time Dad was on leave we moved house again, just heading back north towards where both of them had been raised. So I learned to "speak" Georgia, Maryland, New Jersey... Vermont... if the war had gone on much longer we'd have ended up in Quebec.

Really when I think about it, I wonder how my mother formed that opinion of Florida schools, I mean in terms of any direct exposure while my sister and I were so little. Mom often ended up being a newspaper editor wherever we landed for awhile though, so maybe that had something to do with it. One gets a sense of the community in general from working on a newspaper, and anyway some of the women she became friends with may have influenced her.

It can't just have been the people though, they were from all over the place at that point in Florida's history, same as now really, at least in the cities. Just as New Jersey is said to be a place people are "from", Florida seems to be a place people head "to" -- whether or not any one of those landing spots is actually permanent in a country with a history of its people forever being on the move.

 

[cdcastillo]

...Though I've been known to sometimes space out and reply in a non-English language when asked a question. Again, usually when I'm tired.

Something similar happened to me while studying on Amsterdam, I kept speaking spanish to some egyptian friends, and they sometimes forgot also and tried to communicate with me in arabic. It might have something to do with the fact that egyptians and mexicans share a phenotype.

 

[A.Goldberg]

I'm a native speaker, (from the British Isles) and have always loved the subtlety and rich nuanced vocabulary of the English language.

Your posts are always a pleasure to read! It’s great to see someone who takes such pride in crafting posts and utilizing the English language to its fullest extent.

——-
I grew up in America speaking both English and Hebrew in the home and school (Jewish day school). I am fluent reading, writing, and speaking both languages.

Most of my mistakes in writing on the forum are due to multitasking, typing too quickly, and to some extent Apple’s aggressive and often very strange autocorrect.

I will say oftentimes when I’m exhausted, I become slightly aphasic and think of the Hebrew word before the English term.

I sometimes find non-native English speakers do a better job at writing. I imagine it has to do with possessing a good understanding of the mechanics of the language, something many native speakers tend to lack.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Your posts are always a pleasure to read! It’s great to see someone who takes such pride in crafting posts and utilizing the English language to its fullest extent.

——-
I grew up in America speaking both English and Hebrew in the home and school (Jewish day school). I am fluent reading, writing, and speaking both languages.

Most of my mistakes in writing on the forum are due to multitasking, typing too quickly, and to some extent Apple’s aggressive and often very strange autocorrect.

I will say oftentimes when I’m exhausted, I become slightly aphasic and think of the Hebrew word before the English term.

I sometimes find non-native English speakers do a better job at writing. I imagine it has to do with possessing a good understanding of the mechanics of the language, something many native speakers tend to lack.

Apple's aggressive auto-correct, - how exquisitely expressed, and yes, I agree, (especially a version of aggressive auto-correct attuned to American English) yes, this is a bane of my life on these fora, and elsewhere (my new iPhone SE for example has been home to some of these battles, as well).

Thank you for your kind words.

Fascinating post.

How does Hebrew differ from English? That is an ancient language, and I'd imagine that in syntax, vocabulary, grammar - basic thought patterns and mindset - that this is a radically different tongue.

I've studied French, and Latin, and German - and later, Russian, (and no, this doesn't assume fluency) and, while different to English, common roots and vocabularies - granted, the grammar of German, Latin and Russian is strikingly different to that of English - does allow for some small (or varying) degree of familiarity, not least (Russian excepted) in alphabetical maters, and sheer legibility.

But Hebrew must be completely - and drastically - different.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Apple's aggressive auto-correct, - how exquisitely expressed, and yes, I agree, (especially a version of aggressive auto-correct attuned to American English) yes, this is a bane of my life on these fora, and elsewhere (my new iPhone SE for example has been home to some of these battles, as well).

Thank you for your kind words.

Fascinating post.

How does Hebrew differ from English? That is an ancient language, and I'd imagine that in syntax, vocabulary, grammar - basic thought patterns and mindset - that this is a radically different tongue.

I've studied French, and Latin, and German - and later, Russian, (and no, this doesn't assume fluency) and, while different to English, common roots and vocabularies - granted, the grammar of German, Latin and Russian is strikingly different to that of English - does allow for some small (or varying) degree of familiarity, not least (Russian excepted) in alphabetical maters, and sheer legibility.

But Hebrew must be completely - and drastically - different.

Yes, Hebrew is a very different game. It’s also worth noting there’s Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew. Hebrew of course was a pretty dead language except for the Bible until it’s revival in the 19th century.

I guess to start off with you have an entirely different alphabet and you read right to left. Hebrew lacks vowels in the vast majority of writing- there is however what’s called nikkud which is a form of written Hebrew that includes markations to indicate vowel sounds. Otherwise when reading Hebrew one must infer the vowels and words based off the context. It can be very confusing for people learning as you can imagine. So you can have multiple words with the spelled the same, pronounced differently, with different meanings. You also have word roots- 2-4 letters in a pattern within larger words, usually the words are related (such as to teach, she/he teaches, studies (noun), to learn. So I don’t know if this is more or less confusing for people.

Sentences also start with a verb, rather than the verb after a noun, which is a little strange. Adjectives also come after nouns, like many languages, however adjectives also can be plural and have genders.

I suppose one of the easier facets of Hebrew is that letters only have one sound, unlike English which gets very confusing when you have multiple letters that make multiple sounds. Hebrew of course has some sounds that don’t exist in English and lacks others.

I don’t know really know any Arabic, but I’m told there are many similarities. I can only imagine how hard Hebrew is to learn as a second language. That said, if you are in Israel and speak English, Arabic, or even Russian, chances are you’ll be able to get by relatively easily.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Yes, Hebrew is a very different game. It’s also worth noting there’s Biblical Hebrew and Modern Hebrew. Hebrew of course was a pretty dead language except for the Bible until it’s revival in the 19th century.

I guess to start off with you have an entirely different alphabet and you read right to left. Hebrew lacks vowels in the vast majority of writing- there is however what’s called nikkud which is a form of written Hebrew that includes markations to indicate vowel sounds. Otherwise when reading Hebrew one must infer the vowels and words based off the context. It can be very confusing for people learning as you can imagine. So you can have multiple words with the spelled the same, pronounced differently, with different meanings. You also have word roots- 2-4 letters in a pattern within larger words, usually the words are related (such as to teach, she/he teaches, studies (noun), to learn. So I don’t know if this is more or less confusing for people.

Sentences also start with a verb, rather than the verb after a noun, which is a little strange. Adjectives also come after nouns, like many languages, however adjectives also can be plural and have genders.

I suppose one of the easier facets of Hebrew is that letters only have one sound, unlike English which gets very confusing when you have multiple letters that make multiple sounds. Hebrew of course has some sounds that don’t exist in English and lacks others.

I don’t know really know any Arabic, but I’m told there are many similarities. I can only imagine how hard Hebrew is to learn as a second language. That said, if you are in Israel and speak English, Arabic, or even Russian, chances are you’ll be able to get by relatively easily.

That is extraordinarily interesting and thanks for taking the time to share and post.

I knew that Hebrew was (is) a sort of resurrected language, and - obviously - the modern version is drastically different from Biblical Hebrew.

Modern Greece had a sort of similar dilemma when they gained independence: Do they seek to revive an ancient and venerated tongue spoken by nobody and understood only by an elite few, or do they use the modern form of the language as the linguistic standard?

Is there any (widespread - not necessarily among Biblical scholars) appetite to learn - or use - Biblical Hebrew, and to what extent (I'd imagine considerably) does it differ from Modern Hebrew?

 

[Matz]

I was born in the US; English is my native language. As an Army Brat, I was moved around a lot, and in my formative years lived in two other countries plus both coasts of the US.

In school, I loathed the study of grammar. I could not, and still can’t, diagram a sentence to save my life. If you mention terms like subjunctive, participle, or, god forbid, pluperfect, my eyes glaze over.

However, for some reason, grammar as it’s practiced is important to me, both in speech and in writing. Unfortunately, its misuse seems all too common.

Although I find certain grammatical errors irritating - then for than, it’s for its, your for you’re, and so forth - I try to focus on the content of what someone is saying. For me it’s easier said than done, at times.

Anyway, a decade or two back I discovered The Elements of Style by Strunk and White, and ever since have kept a copy handy. A short, useful book, if you’re into that sort of thing.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

In English, the sounds - the fact that the same letter can have different sounds - reflect the changes in the language, both spoken and written.

In some cases, the spelling reflects how a word used to be pronounced (there is a lot of literature on what is referred to as "The Great Vowel Shift") but the sound has since changed leading to a disconnect between spelling and sound. In other cases, it reflects the effects of standardising the language. But, it seems as though the sound (and spelling) of the English language changed rapidly between the 15-18 centuries.

 

[A.Goldberg]

That is extraordinarily interesting and thanks for taking the time to share and post.

I knew that Hebrew was (is) a sort of resurrected language, and - obviously - the modern version is drastically different from Biblical Hebrew.

Modern Greece had a sort of similar dilemma when they gained independence: Do they seek to revive an ancient and venerated tongue spoken by nobody and understood only by an elite few, or do they use the modern form of the language as the linguistic standard?

Is there any (widespread - not necessarily among Biblical scholars) appetite to learn - or use - Biblical Hebrew, and to what extent (I'd imagine considerably) does it differ from Modern Hebrew?

Yeah, Hebrew essentially was for the most part pretty dormant for a couple thousand years. There’s a lot different with grammar, syntax, pronunciation, and especially vocabulary. Biblical Hebrew also lacks punctuation. It’s kind of a lot like reading archaic English. Theres also fundamentally a lack vocabulary, so one word may have multiple but similar meanings- like slave versus servant, which adds to the complexity of understanding the message. Modern Hebrew is much more standardized with syntax. Probably the biggest change is the vocabulary, which is largely influenced by European countries. Before modern Hebrew there obviously weren’t really words for modern objects and concepts. I find it pretty amazing they were able to revive the language and enable millions of people to speak the language.

I can’t say I’d reccomend learning Hebrew given the complexity, need to learn a new alphabet, and very limited number of speakers in the world. I suppose if you wanted to study the Bible in its truest form then Biblical Hebrew might be worth exploring.

 

[Scepticalscribe]

Yeah, Hebrew essentially was for the most part pretty dormant for a couple thousand years. There’s a lot different with grammar, syntax, pronunciation, and especially vocabulary. Biblical Hebrew also lacks punctuation. It’s kind of a lot like reading archaic English. Theres also fundamentally a lack vocabulary, so one word may have multiple but similar meanings- like slave versus servant, which adds to the complexity of understanding the message. Modern Hebrew is much more standardized with syntax. Probably the biggest change is the vocabulary, which is largely influenced by European countries. Before modern Hebrew there obviously weren’t really words for modern objects and concepts. I find it pretty amazing they were able to revive the language and enable millions of people to speak the language.

I can’t say I’d reccomend learning Hebrew given the complexity, need to learn a new alphabet, and very limited number of speakers in the world. I suppose if you wanted to study the Bible in its truest form then Biblical Hebrew might be worth exploring.

Thanks for the detailed explanation, this is fascinating.

As I am avowedly secular, Biblical study is not something that I could see myself contemplating.

Rather, I was interested in the structure and syntax of the language - because such different structures in languages offer an extremely interesting insight into the culture, mindset and world view of the people that spoke it.

However, and I am curious about this: Was Biblical Hebrew a language of an esoteric elite, a language for an educated priestly caste (as some of the Assyrian languages were according to Nicholas Ostler) - with a similar or different tongue spoken as the demotic - or was it a widely spoken language - including by general population, women, slaves, farmers, herders, - during the period when it was used?

 

[Lioness~]

Grammatical errors according to your language understanding? How very narrow minded. It's a forum for humans from everywhere to connect and share ideas, if you can't understand what is being typed maybe you need to work harder at your translation skills. If misspellings or grammatical errors bother you so much, perhaps look inward for fixing the problem. Living amongst mixed cultures has been such a great experience for removing the closed minded mentality I grew up around, I pity those who can't get outside their own comfort zone to see the benefit in open communication with people of varying backgrounds.

Yup, wonderful post.
If people are looking for grammar errors. Then I guess they have not much content to communicate, unfortunately.

I think a lot of countries are english-speaking today. Would be more accurate to ask if English is one's 1st, 2nd or even 3rd language, I think. So the poll is actually wrong intended from the beginning.
But I can excuse the thread started for having a low content in his/her communication

No, English isn't my 1st language, but I studied it since 10 yrs old. And travelled quite a lot.
Still, my grammar is horrible at times, even in Swedish, especially if the wrong people read it.
I'm more interested in real communication, the psychology, intentions and the understanding of the human mind then in superficial perfection.

 

[A.Goldberg]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, this is fascinating.

As I am avowedly secular, Biblical study is not something that I could see myself contemplating.

Rather, I was interested in the structure and syntax of the language - because such different structures in languages offer an extremely interesting insight into the culture, mindset and world view of the people that spoke it.

However, and I am curious about this: Was Biblical Hebrew a language of an esoteric elite, a language for an educated priestly caste (as some of the Assyrian languages were according to Nicholas Ostler) - with a similar or different tongue spoken as the demotic - or was it a widely spoken language - including by general population, women, slaves, farmers, herders, - during the period when it was used?

No, Hebrew was an everyday language spoken by common folk in its prime, but eventually it was phased out and pretty much only survived from a few hundred years BC to the 19th century via rabbinical tradition. So I suppose in a way the answer is “both”.