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Oh wow. So many comments you’d think this was a keynote thread. Holy cow.
I think its pent up frustration, the issue we're facing isn't new. I think for years many apple enthusiasts felt that the Apple was treating the Mac like the red headed step child. The issue with the Mac Pro is not new, nor is the Mini. Apple skipped upgrading the MBP for a couple of years, i.e., stayed on the Haswell chipset far too long. In a sense why should they change when people were buying them. I think that's changing now as apple is charging almost 3k for a laptop, that has a keyboard with a reputation of being poorly designed. A touch bar that is a solution in search of a problem and now a generation behind in the chipset.

I'm not down on apple, but I'm bummed out. My 2012 rMBP is the best laptop I've ever owned, yet, its the last MBP I've owned and my next laptop will not be a Mac. I wanted to buy a Mac but so far Apple has not provided a suitable machine, where as Apple's competitors have a wide variety of machines that I can choose from.
 
The day Apple soldered the RAM sticks in the mac mini was the day I stopped buying them. The models prior to this were excellent, especially the i7 models I owned. And I could upgrade the RAM myself to 16GB. But as everyone knows Apple's custom RAM is well overpriced.

I'm still happy with my late 2015 iMac 32GB i5 3.2Ghz that I purchased in early 2017. It remains stable even with numerous applications and browsers running at the same time. No lag or rainbow wheels. I just wish I could custom install a 1TB SSD rather than have the fusion.

However, if I had the $'s I'd loooove to get an iMac Pro. Maybe one day.
 
They make a public explanation every quarter. The ROI on money invested in the Mac line is no where near what the level is for the iPhone. It really is all about the money. Apple customers are speaking with their $$. They want iPhones not Macs.

I respectfully disagree. Real Apple customers want iPhones AND Macs. Casual consumers are the ones that only want iPhones.
 
The blog post by Quentin is a perfect example of how out-of-touch developers (and Mac power users) are with the vast majority of Mac and PC buyers, who typically pick up a new computer maybe every six-to-10-years. I know studies have shown Mac users have more disposable income than PC owners, but I did not realise they want to spend it buying a new Mac every year!

The machines that are the most popular get refreshed every year: the iPhone, the iPad, the MacBook Pro. Apple's refresh cycle, it seems to me (the Mac mini excepted) is on a schedule that reflects its sales. I have seen zero evidence that doing a minor speed bump *every year without exception* would result in more sales (and remember, Apple has already tried that ... and discovered that it doesn't goose sales enough to justify its position).

The iMac 5K is still the best desktop PC you can buy, bar none. The MacBook Pro is still the best power-user laptop, and the MBA and MB are the best portable devices with keyboards attached for casual/typical-user use. In fact, I believe that quite a number of people who would have bought a cheap laptop a year ago are now using an iPad and keyboard or a Surface ... because they are fast, meet all their (typical use) needs, and the battery lasts all day.

What Quentin and most of the posters above don't realise is that there is zero consumer hunger for tiny iterative speed bumps in hardware -- they (and I) are perfectly happy with significantly more interesting bumps and new features in software that maximize the value of our existing investment. This is why smartphone sales are down over the last year ... we've reached a technological plateau. I grant you all that the Mac Mini is seriously overdue for an improvement and upgrade, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a MacBook upgrade this year (and we still might, of course), but ... I'm afraid the days of wonderous new redesigns and life-changing features are over for a long while to come (at least until quantum computing goes mainstream).

Until there's a genuine *breakthrough* in performance -- and Intel re-learns how to stick to their roadmap, or Macs switch over to ARM-based chips -- the public at large is very comfortable with the current level of hardware performance and not especially eager (especially after that US tax package failed to raise wages for 99 percent of consumers) to throw away money on a computing device that will be surpassed in a year.
 
The day Apple soldered the RAM sticks in the mac mini was the day I stopped buying them. The models prior to this were excellent, especially the i7 models I owned. And I could upgrade the RAM myself to 16GB. But as everyone knows Apple's custom RAM is well overpriced.
Agree completely. Back then I patiently waited for a Mac mini upgrade only to find out, they ditched i7 and (for my specific purposes) functionally sliced the performance in half.
 
The problem as I have seen it for a long time (this thread is no different than the many similar) is that the personality type complaining is that of the real and archetypical technician.

You like to be able to customize your machines, not just your apple machines be honest and think about it, you do it in other areas of life.

Nice approach, but in fact it needs more differentiation. I'm not technician by heart and not able to glue anything. But I configured/built two computers from scratch before I switched to Apple. Why? Because I do not want to configure the OS anymore, spend time on stuff I don't have. - but I am smart to know, that SDD from apple installed is much more expensive than DIY. For that you just need to watch a youtube video and buy 1-2 tools which are very cheap (screwdrivers). With the expericene of building a PC it's just easier. and faster to upgrade a Apple machine. And neither I am a early adopter.

I think the group you could define additionally here is smart buyers, the people who buy used cars which are 1-2 years old, they look at price-to-effectivness. The line-up Apple has today shows a rip-off mentality in comparison to the past, where Apple had to find new customers and listened to what they want/need. Also if you compare a 15" machine entry it literally doubled the price since 2009. And of course I understand all the reasons why ssd in now internal (faster, more power efficient).
At last: If Apple on the one hand wants to be THAT eco friendly company, they force customers to buy hard-to-repair macs, dump your LCD monitor (which is still fine) in the thrash to purchase an iMac because MacMini is dead. Also new laptops won't have the lifetime like a user upgradable uniboy MBP - it's a waste of resources if you ask me. On the other hand, besides iPhone and iPad, this mindset is the road to milk money. And cash Apple has. A lot. The question remains - what good does your cash on the bank do, if your customer base it not attached to the product anymore. If Samsung builds a better iPhone, some of those new Apple customers will walk away instantly. But the customer base, long time apple enthusiasts, waited years now to get a nice upgradable desktop, eGPU, macMini, as the situation got worse keynote by keynote, the are still here. But not forever. I hope end of 2018 the announce tons of smart hardware for smart and loyal customers.
 
I can understand this developers frustration. Apologies for the "wall of text" length but it's the only way to articulate what I want to say. My last Apple desktop purchase was the mid-2010 Mac Pro (6 core). My last Apple purchase was when the iPhone 6 Plus was released. I've been an Apple customer and Mac user since the Mac IIcx. Before that, I used PC compatibles (running DOS and towards the tail end, OS/2) but ultimately moved to the Mac when I got into the early days of multimedia. Three products were pretty much plug-n-play for the Mac; the 24-bit color Radius graphics card, HP ScanJet IIc (including Mac scanning software and Photoshop plug-in), and the Philips CDR 522 (this was during a time when CD burners weren't consumer products yet and I acquired a new 2x speed one that was being discounted by $2K along with a copy of Astarte Toast CD-ROM Pro which by itself, cost several hundreds when it was still a version 1.x product).

I retired my last PC (an OS/2 2.1 box) in 1994 when I purchased my Quadra 800. After that, my upgrades was at a fairly consistent pace: Quadra 840AV, Power Mac 8100, Power Mac 8500, Power Mac G3 (B&W), PowerBook G3 400MHz (Bronze Keyboard), Power Mac G4 500MHz (AGP Graphics), Power Mac G4 Cube (as a collectors item), iMac 700MHz (Summer 2001), Power Mac G4 Dual 1GHz (Quicksilver 2002). The G5 was the first redesign in awhile that I didn't jump into since folks who will remember how long in the tooth the PPC was during that period. My Dual GHz G4 was already a nice heat generator and the G5's ran hotter (plus there was the power supply noise and liquid cooling issues on some systems). So I held off a bit. Everything became academic with the 2005 announcement to shift to Intel; for the first time in 4 years, I purchased a new Mac; the 2006 Mac Pro (2.66GHz). The acquisition of products resumed at slightly longer intervals though; 13" MacBook (mid-2007) and Mac mini 2GHz (mid-2007) which I
still use with OS X Server.

One can do the math as far as the amount of money spent with Apple (the only system I sold was the 2006 Mac Pro; everything else, I still have since I am a collector of sorts). This also doesn't include the Apple displays purchased (I still use my 30" Cinema Display as well as a 20" one) or other peripherals like Laserwriters and Airport base stations. For myself, they've been the best tools to get the job done (majority being non-all-in-one systems). I also realized they weren't always on the cutting edge tech wise but it was offset by industrial design and with a few exceptions, very reliable. I do realize recent manufacturing processes taken together with design decisions (which include some form over function ones) have led to some flaws in various products.

Which leads to the present. Mid-2010 was when I purchased my current Mac Pro (3.33GHz hexacore), 13" MacBook Pro 2.4GHz, Mac mini 2.4GHz, and then 11" MacBook Air 1.6GHz Core i5 (mid-2011), 11" MacBook Air 1.3GHz Core i5 (mid-2013). All of these "recent" systems besides the mini are still in use (the mini ended up overheating when the air vent was blocked up and the entire thing overheated where even the hard drive failed). My 2010 MacBook Pro has a bloated battery that I need to replace (though the case is already warped), and I already replaced the bloated battery in my 2013 Air (fortunately, it only pushed up on the keyboard and didn't warp the bottom casing). This is one of the side effects of trying to make everything thin as possible, packing in everything into tight tolerances, and heat doing what it does when the engineering that sounded great on paper, doesn't always work the way it is supposed to in real life.

The "cheese grater" form factor Mac Pro was really built to last though and has been reliable to the present. Also love its internal storage (I have 5 SATA drives in it with capacities between 3-6TB plus a PCIe SSD (Accelsior E2). The 2013 Mac Pro was a non-starter because I really did not want to go back to a system design with very limited internal expansion which leads to a whole mess of power bricks and external enclosures. It did also begin to concern me around the 2016 timeframe as to whether or not Apple was moving on from headless desktops.

Late 2016 was the first time since the early 90's that I purchased a non-Apple computer; a small form factor gaming system from ASUS. I liked it so much that I purchased the updated model last year with a Core i7 3.2GHz quad core (turbo boost to 3.9GHz), an Nvidia 1070 GTX, 512GB SSD, 1TB SATA, and ASUS 4K IPS panel gaming display for $1500. I love the monitor (fully articulating as well). While it's a SFF gaming rig, it handles graphics and 4k video editing/encoding fine. And I do realize I could've built my own system for much less (but I really just wanted a SFF turnkey system). Paying the Apple tax all these years makes it easy to swallow the prices of even what is considered the higher end on the PC (non-Apple) side. Windows 10 (I took part early on in the Windows Insider program to give a lot of feedback and it turned out to be refreshing experiencing even though there is still a lot that can be improved) hasn't been that bad (once you disable auto update and lock out feature update installs so that you can set rollback points to test) but I still prefer OS X (macOS).

I never did desire to return to a dual platform setup but that is where things are today. I am also not what you would call very sticky with Apple's ecosystem (a conscious decision to not be tied to any single cloud service) and am more or less an edge case when it comes to using Apple's pro products. On the iOS side, I only purchased two iPad's (the original and the 2nd generation mini). I also purchased a 2nd generation Apple TV as an experiment and wasn't too impressed (it still crashes and resets even when I stream to it using AirPlay). I am still undecided about going with an Apple TV 4K versus something like a Roku. And as I mentioned at the start, the iPhone 6 Plus was the last Apple product I've purchased (my favorite iPhone form factor is my 5s that I still use for media and photos).

After the April 2017 Mac Pro roundtable discussion and then the update in April 2018 about the modular Mac Pro being a 2019 product, it became apparent that Apple executives lost the plot with this niche segment. The "pro" moniker has a very diverse group with a wide array of needs so its not like I am tone deaf when it comes to trying to design a product that meets the varying needs of these customers. I actually come from an IT background so the whole convergence of classic Mac user interface with the underpinnings of BSD unix appealed to me after the acquisition of NeXT in 1996. And while it hasn't been perfect (often times annoying having gone through several hardware and software transitions), the platform has served me well being the best tool for the job.

But I am also realistic in terms of the amount of time left on my 2010 Mac Pro where there is going to be a point that it will be dropped from the supported list where it will eventually be several iterations out of date for macOS. After the Mojave announcement, I purchased a flashed Nvidia GT740 so that I can eventually run the later beta on it. I'm also not going to be surprised if Mojave ends up being the last version that will officially support this particular form factor but at least I know there will be a few more years left on it when it comes to security patches and ability to run the latest software.

Because I have no idea how Apple is going to define "modular" (like if they end up overthinking it) when it comes to their actual design and form factor of this new Mac Pro, I've already made plans to transition to HP's Generation 4 workstations (specifically the Z6 since it has the right amount of expandability and internal storage capabilities for my needs). It will also serve double duty as a gaming rig with an Nvidia 1080 GTX in one of the 16x slots. I'm impressed with the HP division (located in Colorado) that designs these workstations as they put them through a lot of rigorous testing. For myself, Windows 10 Pro is serviceable but lacks "personality" and still doesn't have the pervasive refinement in various functions (one small example is drag-n-drop where it works so much better on the Mac). But it's not like the Mac has been slowly losing the special touches that gave them some soul (like the startup chime, the Happy Mac bootup logo, the cloud poof derived from the Newton when removing an icon from the dock, the pulsing light, the backlit logo on laptops, etc).

I'm not looking for Mac updates every single year. The situation with the Mac mini and Mac Pro (yes, they've roundtable discussed this but it is still a vapor product at this point) is beyond reproach though when you consider those are being sold at their same price points with tech that is not reasonably current relative to the competition (there is a point where it is insulting). I would love to continue spending my money with Apple if they designed a non all-in-one desktop that isn't internally restrictive like it was with the 2013 model. I guess time will tell.

P.S. I feel I should disclose that I am also a long time AAPL shareholder. The ROI from the growth in mobile is something I cannot complain about BUT it doesn't mean that I agree that all decisions should be about squeezing every single penny at the expense of the companies core pillars and crown jewels. The Mac (hardware and software) are an important cornerstone of the entire Apple ecosystem even though it may represent a smaller portion of the revenue and marketshare pie. They are still high margin products (and more so the niche Mac Pro line) which at one time, used to be where I spent a lot of my own disposable income on. The executive team do hear about this stuff and have given lip service like "we love the Mac" or "the Mac mini is an important product in our lineup". Actions speak louder than words though. All I can say is that Apple has been losing me as a customer with the neglect of some Mac products for most of this decade and I know I am not the only one.
 
The blog post by Quentin is a perfect example of how out-of-touch developers (and Mac power users) are with the vast majority of Mac and PC buyers, who typically pick up a new computer maybe every six-to-10-years. I know studies have shown Mac users have more disposable income than PC owners, but I did not realise they want to spend it buying a new Mac every year!
I doubt anyone is advocating an upgrade every year. But when you've purchased a Mac Mini in 2014 and you want to replace it today what is available? Why a 2014 Mac Mini! That's four years without a replacement. Same can be said about the Mac Pro. Upgrades aren't solely about CPU. GPUs, memory, disk, I/O are also considerations.


What Quentin and most of the posters above don't realise is that there is zero consumer hunger for tiny iterative speed bumps in hardware -- they (and I) are perfectly happy with significantly more interesting bumps and new features in software that maximize the value of our existing investment. This is why smartphone sales are down over the last year ... we've reached a technological plateau. I grant you all that the Mac Mini is seriously overdue for an improvement and upgrade, and I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a MacBook upgrade this year (and we still might, of course), but … I'm afraid the days of wonderous new redesigns and life-changing features are over for a long while to come (at least until quantum computing goes mainstream).
Few are asking for completely new and life changing redesigns. Many would be happy with incremental upgrades as the components become available. Apple used to do this. Other companies do do this. In fact many people would love for Apple to go back to the cMP chassis with updated internals. Same with the Mini. Many would love Apple to go back to the pre-current MBP form factor. No one is asking for anything earth shattering. Apple, at least when it comes to the Mac Pro, is the one insisting on that.
 
The upside of the Mac stagnation over the past 5 years... My 5 year old MacBook Air seems as good to me as any Mac out there (for my needs). Most any other tech product would have been obliterated by more modern versions during that time (i.e. iPhone 5s)
The iPhone 5S is a solid phone. I own one and I'm very happy with it. Does all I need from a smart phone.
 
And to think it could be so easy for Apple to make his customers happy:

- a slightly thicker MacBook Pro with the old keyboard design and a bigger battery.
Maybe offer a cheaper 15” non touch bar version

- bring back the old Mac Pro tower design, just with updated components.

- update the Mac mini, Intel’s hades canyon is the proof you can squeeze some powerful hardware in a small form factor

Everyone happy
 
I agree. I think Carnicelli's comments are overblown, to say the least. Some here say: "Why can't we at least get a speed bump?". I'd say: "Why bother with a speed bump?" The amount of system performance gained by anything Intel has put out in the last 2 years is, for all practical purposes, nearly imperceptible.

That is incorrect. 8th Gen Intel 15w CPU's are between 20-40% faster than the 7th gen dual cores. That's the most significant update we've seen from Intel in the last 3-4 years.
The first Windows laptops with 8th gen Intel CPU's were released with the end on 2017.
 
Agree or disagree, Mac value holds up extremely well and lifespan are increasingly pushing the boundaries...Look at MacBook Air from 10 years ago still fetching over $100 dollars on eBay. People are keeping their devices longer and longer no need for product refreshes every year. IMO.

Excellent point... except...

Individuals are indeed keeping devices longer. However, people (collectively) replace devices - or purchase new ones - every day. Just because you and I don't need a new device right now doesn't mean that tens of thousands don't... and it is IMO arrogant on Apple's part to think that they don't need to continuously evolve. When you and I are ready to buy new machines we're going to want top-of-the-line based on today's technology... not something that is already 2-3 years old.
 
I just setup a Hackintosh off of a spare drive on my Windows gaming system. It has a 6700k Intel CPU and a 1080TI gfx card. Gets a 6000+ single core and 20k multi-core Geekbench score. They have made hackintoshing much more easier than the last time I did it (around 2008-2009). Back then I was still a windows guy but preferred iPhones. I finally got a Mac book pro (2009) and currently have a 2013 MBP.

I was going to upgrade to a 2017 MBP but decided to hold off after WWDC. Since no announcements, I ended up just picking up a Pixelbook with the $250 + 10% student discount from Best Buy. It's a great laptop. I was hesitant on keeping it but now that I have a Mac Pro level desktop with this Hackintosh, I'm going to keep the Pixel book. My other devices are iPad Pro 10.5. I no longer have a need for a MBP level laptop.

For those that want a desktop Mac OS, I would definitely consider a Hackintosh if you already have a PC gaming rig. It's easy to hackintosh now.
 
Part of the issue is the state of the industry. People aren’t buying home computers at the rate they previously did. It’s now possible to live entirely with your mobile devices. In some ways the Mac (and PC) are relics in the consumer world. The situation will look more dire in 10 years. Only dinosaurs like me will probably be buying another Mac.
This isn’t really a true statement. Sales of Dell, Lenovo, HP and Apple combined have been roughly flat, grown slightly. It is sales of other brands and Acer that have shrunk.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/263393/global-pc-shipments-since-1st-quarter-2009-by-vendor/
 
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You really expect Apple to align its release cycles with Intel's? And the list of 8th gen mobile processors is somewhat of a hotchpotch (with for example no 4.5-W TDP model for the MB):
  • Kaby Lake R: U-series, TDP 15-W (4 models)
  • Kaby Lake R: G-series, TDP 65 & 100-W (5 models)
  • Coffee Lake: U-series, TDP 28 & 45-W (9 models)
  • Cannon Lake: U-series, Core i3, TDP 15-W (1 model)

That is quite possible, there's a first for everything. Though we had A-series device releases in July (iPod touch).
I expect my trusted business partner to update its products regularly... though to recommend not UpToDate hardware
 
Seriously, once again, where do you get this stuff?, replace a PC every year?! My goodness. Mac is great and win10 PC's are great too these days but that statement is just laughable

People may not buy a computer each year, but when the time comes to buy one, nobody wants to pay Apples premium prices for tech that's years behind.

By your logic, why update anything? Most people replace their phone every 2 years, why does Apple release a new model every year? Most people keep a new car over 4 years, why update the cars each year.
 
I guess I can throw my 'complaints' in, too.

I bought my Macbook Pro 3 years ago. I did so only because of my anger over Windows 10. There is much about Win10 that I don't like. My MBP is fine, and I expect to get at least 2 more years of use out of it.

However, since that purchase, my needs have changed drastically. Now that I'm retired, I have no work-related needs. I have one desk, which has to hold my 4K monitor, the PS4 (which I got recently now that I have time to game), the Roku box I stream video on, and the MBP used in clamshell mode with the monitor. I have absolutely no need to use the MBP as an actual notebook anymore. (There's an old Win7 box that sits on the floor as well, that I hardly use.)

When the MBP goes, if there isn't a non-notebook Mac that I can hook up to my monitor, I'm going back to Windows. The current Mac Mini would work, but can't drive a 4K monitor. I can't hook the other devices up to an iMac, after all (the devices I've seen that supposedly let you hook the PS4 up to an iMac have horrible reviews). I don't have room for more than one monitor.

But my iPhone 6 is starting to show it's battery wear. It'll probably last until the end of the year. If there's been an announcement of a new Mac Mini, or some other type of Mac I can hook up to my existing monitor, by then I might replace it with an iPhone SE (or whatever the equivalent might be by then). If not, then I will get an Android phone (for half the price of an SE) and begin my transition away from all Apple products. Not out of hate, but just because they don't offer products that fit my current needs.

If I'm not in their target market demographics anymore, oh well. Apple will probably do just fine without me, and I know I will do just fine without them.
 
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