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maya said:
Then again maybe the artists should publish the lyrics on they website if they care about they fans. ;) :)
Yea bobdylan.com! In spite of the fact that you can buy a volume of Bob Dylan's lyrics, Dylan lays it all out for folks to read on his website.

I recently started using PearLyrics (which, after receiving some threats from record execs has been pulled off the net) to add lyrics to the "lyrics" field in iTunes. If I own the CD, I think I should be able to do this...

However, I do see the point. It probably wouldn't be OK for me to start typing out this Robert Creeley volume sitting on my desk and to start putting all those poems on my website.
 
maya said:
The RIAA is going to start taking legal action for every little thing someone does in regards to music.
From now DJ's at weddings and other venues will have to pay a royalty fee for every song requested and played. Sheesh :rolleyes:
However I also see why the RIAA will also do this. Then again maybe the artists should publish the lyrics on they website if they care about they fans. ;) :)

It's not the RIAA, it's the MPA, completely different group -- make sure you're teeing off on the right target...

Sure the artist can publish their own lyics on the web if they want -- and also not. Its their choice (which is kinda the point here).

(Public performance such as DJs and dances as well as radio and incidental or background music have been subject to performance royalties for decades. Sheesh? Don't be surprised, check your facts instead.)

So you think it's ok to sing copyrighted lyrics to yourself in the shower right? and it's still ok to sing them to a friend right? Would you say that it's alright to write them down? and if so would it still be ok to share that piece of paper with a friend? But not to publish it online? Is this your position? I'm just trying to figure out a what point people's right to speak/sing/share copyrighted work becomes bad. I mean, I can recite copyrighted poetry publicly, at what point is the threshold crossed?

There are two lines to cross, one is public performance: where, as posted earlier, a commercial establishment (pub, dance hall, restaurant, shopping mall - whether live band or recorded) pays a royalty to cover the performance rights in their venue, and

the second is publication of the lyrics. Since you are reducing this to absurd levels, technically this would be when you write the lyrics down and hand them to a friend. But that is of course absurd. The action being discussed is against lyrics sites that have thousands of lyrics being published to millions of web viewers. Nobody could possibly argue that these sites don't have an impact on the publishers of the sheet music.

Performance and publication royalties are administered by completely separate groups.
 
Yeah, I gotta take the MPA's side. If these sites are eating into their revenues, they have a right to be mad. It's the same thing as with MP3s and the music recording industry.

I don't know anything about the MPA though. I don't know if they're like the greedy money-leaching shameless whores that make up the 5 major record labels.



Just to clarify, I say that facetiously.
 
I'm not disputing that a legal case couldn't be made. If that's so then the laws need ammending.

I spend 15 dollars on a CD. It comes with liner notes including lyrics. Unless I write out those lyrics myself, I'll probably copy them from the internet if I need them as a reference. Who exactly is being harmed here? I doubt that most artists care one way or the other. They don't really expect me to order a separate CD of They Might Be Giants lyrics in ASCII, do they?

Virtually all of the musician sites I've seen have no problem with people working out chords and posting up lyrics- maybe Metallica or some other mega-band objects- but they're in a tiny minority (I hope). Rock and pop acts depend on cultivating a fan-base, and they're smart enough not to cheese them off.

I could envisage a situation in which someone just flat-out copies the entire musical notation from a song-book, but this very rarely happens- it's 99% of the time just a couple of chord changes, with the words on top. I remain genuinely skeptical that this is causing any financial problems for most acts.

There's always a balance between freedom of expression and the artists' freedom to make money off their hard work- but this is obviously going too far. The idiots even want to imprison offenders. Talk about alienating an entire generation.
 
commonpeople said:
There's always a balance between freedom of expression and the artists' freedom to make money off their hard work- but this is obviously going too far. The idiots even want to imprison offenders. Talk about alienating an entire generation.
Only governments get to imprison people, MPA don't get to decide that. On the other hand, at least some governments are willing to do just that :/
 
I don't get it. :confused:

How does posting lyrics of a song on the internet hurt the artist or record label? It's not like I can go to target, and buy them anyway.
Besides, it's not like I'm going to read the lyrics online and then say: "well, now I don't need to buy the song, I've already read it."

If I hear a song on the radio, and don't know what it's called, I can remember a verse and google it when I get home, then one of these lyrics sites will give the the title, and then I can buy it from iTMS - That's the only time I have ever used lyrics websites.

So when they crack down on these sites, I won't be able to buy their music - that's real smart. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I really don't understand why they are doing this, can someone please tell me why? :confused:
 
CanadaRAM said:
There are two lines to cross, one is public performance: where, as posted earlier, a commercial establishment (pub, dance hall, restaurant, shopping mall - whether live band or recorded) pays a royalty to cover the performance rights in their venue, and

the second is publication of the lyrics. Since you are reducing this to absurd levels, technically this would be when you write the lyrics down and hand them to a friend. But that is of course absurd. The action being discussed is against lyrics sites that have thousands of lyrics being published to millions of web viewers. Nobody could possibly argue that these sites don't have an impact on the publishers of the sheet music.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk or anything, but sometimes breaking down a complex issue into is simpler parts can be a good tool to analyze the issue as a whole. First, there are several issues at play here. For the public performance aspect, I curious as to how that plays out. Like my poetry example. I'm under the impression (and it may be incorrect so please let me know) that it is perfectly legitimate to recite copyrighted poetry at a public poetry reading, say in a coffee house or on campus somewhere. How does that differ from reading others lyrics out loud at such an event or even singing those lyrics at say an open-mic event? If there is no comercial interest/profit by such actions I fail to see how this is a problem(this would be different from the wedding DJ example, as the DJ/venue is making a profit from said works).

Second is the issue of publishing the lyrics. I think the main problem here is the nature of the internet. In one sense it's seen as a quasi-legitmate form of media (e.g. blogs fighting for the rights of freedom of the press). While on the other hand it's more of a communication device. I would tend to categorize this site in more of the second vein seeing as how we are essentially carring out an online chat, publicly with (potentially) thousands of participants. It's called a forum for a reason, an homage of the Greek forum where citizens would gather to discuss the news/politics/gossip etc. of the day. Macrumors is merely a virtual extension of that phenomena (the type of thing that the founders had in mind when they established freedoms of speech, and public assembly- ok, not the virtual part but I think they'd approve none-the-less).

If we interperet the lyrics sites as the first class then I can see how this would become a problem in terms of copyright law. There would be virtually no difference between these sites and the NY Times publishing (without permission of the author) the lyrics to a song and what these sites are doing (essentially since they both generate a profit from advertising). However, if we see these sites as a virtual collection of people publicly reciting said works in a massive lot (owned by lyrics.com--or whoever which paid for the property by placing billboards around the property), then the issue becomes more clouded, and possibly legitimate, since the content is produced by a collection of thousands of individual accounts of the copyrighted works. I admit this is kind of absurd.

Finally, the example of sheet music is a somewhat separate issue. In one sense tablature is just doing the same thing only in a unique language. Also online tablature is not really a replacment for sheet music, as others have pointed out. To even really play the song from tab, you have to sit there with the recording (that you have purchased) to be able to play the song. It is very much an educational tool for people trying to teach themselves how to play guitar/bass. You will often times see entry's that have a very similar form to a short macrumors thread where people will say this is how I think it is, followed by someone else saying, yeah... but I think the bridge section is more like this...etc. It is very much a discussion only in a very special language that could fall under the freedom of speech/assembly arguments. As others have said, this is not a replacment for the official published sheet music. If people want the correct, official version, they'll buy it.

Another way to look at the tablature issue is in the context of translation. If, for example, we all purchased a book written in French, and then had a community effort to translate that work into English would this be a problem? Sure we're not going to pay for the English version, and thereby depriving the publisher/translator/author of that revenue, however we did purchase the original work in French and thereby compensated the appropriate parties at that time. Why should we compensate the translator when we are doing his work ourselves? Musically, the analogy would work like this: the actual peformance of the music (the CD) is the french book (one that we have all purchased), and the sheet music would be the store copy of the translated work. I see no problem with individuals giving their own opinions as to how to produce the same performance as the original performer.

Anyways, sorry for the long post, but this issue has got me fired up!
 
EricNau said:
How does posting lyrics of a song on the internet hurt the artist or record label? It's not like I can go to target, and buy them anyway.
There are tons of books like that, in book stores. Try a search for lyrics on Amazon, B&N, Borders. Also try searches on "fake book", "songbook" etc.

GorillaPaws said:
I'm under the impression (and it may be incorrect so please let me know) that it is perfectly legitimate to recite copyrighted poetry at a public poetry reading, say in a coffee house or on campus somewhere.
On campus it's usually okay, but only because schools generally have licenses covering that sort of thing. But even schools need to pay licenses (and sometimes hefty ones at that) before drama departments can put on productions and so on.

In the coffee house example, the poetry reading may not be okay, if they're not your poems. Things like that rarely are noticed or reported, of course, especially if the establishment is small; but technically it requires permission. For songs and lyrics, places that offer entertainment (including open mic) are already paying or the ASCAP thugs come knocking. (Those activities are commercial, in that they draw in business for the club/coffee house. That's why they're the ones who have to pay.)
If, for example, we all purchased a book written in French, and then had a community effort to translate that work into English would this be a problem?
Yep! A translation is a derived work and needs permission.
 
iMeowbot said:
There are tons of books like that, in book stores. Try a search for lyrics on Amazon, B&N, Borders. Also try searches on "fake book", "songbook" etc.
Oh, well, I stand corrected.

Well what kind of idiot would pay for a lyrics book when you could get the same info on the internet for free!? :D
 
840quadra said:
What's next, Jail time for HUMMING copyrighted music ?!

Humming may get the offender time in a domestic jail, but public singing will be considered so inflammatory and subversive that it may result in a plane ride to a CIA operated prison in Europe for special interrogation.
 
iMeowbot said:
Yep! A translation is a derived work and needs permission.

I'm under the impression that foreign language classes do this type of thing all the time (they'll pick a work and ask students to collectively translate it). I find it hard to believe that this type of activity is a violation of copyright law. I could understand publishing it being a problem, but that is a separate issue entirely (as I've previously addressed).
 
As long as the translation is for your own personal use then I doubt it's illegal.

Again, it's agreed that a tiny minority of artists make money off their lyrics by licensing to lyric and/or song books. But if 99% of artists are ok with fans looking up the lyrics on the internet can't some kind of compromise be arranged. I'm not asking people to start a revolution and burn down cities in protest, but by the same token, the record companies and publishing companies need to be aware that they are alienating an entire generation with petty legal action. There has to be a way to satisfy both parties. None of us want to live in an information world where lawyers are chasing every petty infringement.

And again, I remain skeptical that any actual damage is being done by downloading lyrics. To be honest, if they can't convince someone like me who has never downloaded illegal music, then it's going to be nigh impossible to convince the average teenager.

Of course, if the goal is to put more young adults in prison and criminalize everyone else then they might me on to something.
 
Why would someone want the lyrics? :confused:

The only time it has ever come in handy for me is when I don't know the song title, I can google a line, and then the song title will pop-up (usually from a lyrics site). - which then leads to me buying that song.
 
GorillaPaws said:
I'm under the impression that foreign language classes do this type of thing all the time (they'll pick a work and ask students to collectively translate it).
There are specific exemptions for classroom use. Given how often fair use is claimed for all kinds of things, it's kind of funny that one of the few situations where it's actually spelled out as allowed would be unknown :)
EricNau said:
Why would someone want the lyrics? :confused:
To figure out if Paul is really dead.
 
iMeowbot said:
To figure out if Paul is really dead.

LOL

To address your classroom statement, I was just using it as an example because I tend to think of tablature sites as a collection of people trying to help teach themselves and others how to play guitar/bass (for the people who can't afford/don't have time for lessons). In a sense it could be seen as a virtual classroom, no? If you're a professional musician who does covers then you're going to be buying the official stuff. Besides, many of these sites state that the content is for personal study only.
 
GorillaPaws said:
To address your classroom statement, I was just using it as an example because I tend to think of tablature sites as a collection of people trying to help teach themselves and others how to play guitar/bass (for the people who can't afford/don't have time for lessons). In a sense it could be seen as a virtual classroom, no?
(in the US version of all this) section 110 allows "performance or display of a work by instructors or pupils in the course of face-to-face teaching activities of a nonprofit educational institution". That section isn't talking about virtual anything. In the more general fair use part (section 107) it does mention "nonprofit educational purposes" but that is qualified earlier in the section with the examples of classroom use, scholarship and research.

Adding a little disclaimer to a public Web page saying that stuff is "for educational purposes only" doesn't make it so, the nature of a public Web page means that the person who put the lyrics there is making no attempt to make sure that the lyrics are being taken for that reason.

One of the big pieces that gets in the way of a simple claim like that is the second fair use test, "the nature of the copyrighted work". What that means, is that there is much less fair-use allowance for creative works (arts and entertainment) than there is for reference or nonfiction works. You've got to be prepared to prove that the material is being used for education and not entertainment.
If you're a professional musician who does covers then you're going to be buying the official stuff.
I'd be surprised to learn that the majority of musicians really knew how to read music. Next you'll be telling me that there are drummers who can count :)


Oh yeah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_is_Dead
 
iMeowbot said:
Adding a little disclaimer to a public Web page saying that stuff is "for educational purposes only" doesn't make it so

True. And I see your point about the copyright law. How did you get to be so knowledgable in this area? I'm not trying to challenge you or anything, I'm just genuinely interested in this subject. Anyways, based on your statement about musicians not being able to read tab (which I did think was pretty funny btw), I'm not certain that you understand what tablature is. It's basically a watered down version of regular sheet music, but each of the six lines (four for bass tab) represent the six guitar strings, and the numbers, correspond to the fret you press down upon. It's more of an aid for people who can't read standard musical notation than anything else (that and it helps guitarists figure out where on the neck to play since the same note can be played in many places on the guitar). Please forgive me if you already knew all of this, I'm not trying to be condecending or anything.

The point of all that was though is that the very nature of tablature is it's inherent inadequecies (especially the ones freely available on the net) to represent the actual music without a copy of the recorded performance to accompany it. If I gave the sheet music of an unknown piece to an accomplished pianist, they would be able to perform it and it would likely be very representitive of the actual recording. If I gave a tablature of the same piece to a guitarist without them ever hearing the work, they would not really be able to accomplish the same thing.

Here's a question: If I described how a song was played verbally such as: "the first note is with your index finger on the 3rd fret of the "A" string followed by the second note on the...." would that be a copyright infringment? Because tablature is essentially that, and I'm still not convinced that this is a copyright violaiton.
 
I know alot of people dont think stealing music is right but I have to say that the record companies really do deserve it. What is my reason for buying a CD when the artist is getting payed waaay less then they deserve. Plus just by using that CD I am risking getting root files and other such Bull S***. I know that stealing is wrong but at some point I just stop careing. And on occasion I do by songs of iTunes purely to support the artist or band. After all I can always get them off lime for free.

I imagine that soon the record companies are going to disapear as it becomes increasingly logical for a band to make and market their own music independantly. Then I really will stop pirating.
 
Holy Crap!!! My Webster's Dictionary is copyrighted. I suppose I am not allowed to speak, write, or think in the English language without paying royalties.

Soon, people will realize that ownership only goes so far. RIAA and MPAA are just trying to see how much they can get away with.

Hickman
 
Brian Hickman said:
Holy Crap!!! My Webster's Dictionary is copyrighted. I suppose I am not allowed to speak, write, or think in the English language without paying royalties.
Another absurdity argument. You are not permitted to copy the DICTIONARY - you know, the pages full of definitions and the way they put that particular book together. You can make your own arrangement of the freaking words any time you want. (Use a smiley next time if you're joking or being sarcastic).

EricNau said:
Why would someone want the lyrics?
Maybe because they downloaded the songs and didn't get the CD liner??

I tend to think of tablature sites as a collection of people trying to help teach themselves..
Don't you see that it doesn't matter what the stated purpose of the site is? Or whether the viewers are professonals or amateurs? The tablature (that is, the distinctive arrangement of guitar chords that when played, reproduce a recognizable song) is a publication of the song, and the author has the right to sell it in "Easy Tab Guitar Method" books, to give it away, or to restrict any publication of it -- at their choice.

Now your point, whether the tablature is accurate enough to be a recognizable publication of the song, is a good one, and would have to be tested in court. Tab plus lyric probably infringes, Tab plus lead melody line probably infringes. Tab alone for a 3 chord I - IV - IV rock song would probably be iffy (in that it may not be able to be distinguished from 500 other songs with the same changes).

When you buy a book or video that does the "now put your middle finger on the 3rd fret" thing, and uses a copyrighted song, then the publisher has paid the royalty for that song (which is why most of the songs in these books are writteen by the author of the book, to keep costs down).

What is my reason for buying a CD when the artist is getting payed waaay less then they deserve.
OK then. I'll be around later tonight to take your TV, because the workers in China who made it get paid waaaay less than they deserved. "You're not charging enough for it, so I'll steal it instead" That rationalization for not paying for music is so self contradictory and lame it's laughable.
 
CanadaRAM said:
Maybe because they downloaded the songs and didn't get the CD liner??

I still don't know why anyone would want the lyrics? Do they enjoy reading along with the song? (Kinda like one of those sing-a-long Disney videos?):p
 
EricNau said:
I still don't know why anyone would want the lyrics? Do they enjoy reading along with the song? (Kinda like one of those sing-a-long Disney videos?):p
I do! Plus... sometimes I just like to know what the heck the singers are trying to say... :eek: I've never been good at hearing the words.
 
It's a lost cause for the corporate ***holes. As soon as they shut one website down, 5 more will go up. It can't be stopped. When Napstur and Audiogalaxy went down for file-sharing, look how many more sites went up. They need to forget about the lawsuits and concentrate on producing GOOD bands instead of these SISSY-ROCK bands of today. I love the way that Steve Jobs refuses to let the corporate world rule the iTunes market.

REFUSE TO PAY the lawsuits and SHARE the lyrics.
 
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